Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Sunny Disposition

The current government have made a pigs ear out of the situation.

Unfortunately we had very little capacity when war broke out in Ukraine, but we kind of ignored that issue and allowed as many people who wanted to come here. Now we have people sleeping in tents, new arrivals going to be homeless and the failure to address issues around housing, health and provision of services has led to a drop in solidarity with those arriving.

A well-intentioned, very optimistic but poorly thought through laissez faire policy has been a disaster.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177996#Comment_120177996

What agreements?, Ireland operates under the same UN rules as other EU nations yet our refusal rate is 10% where as the EU average is 60% refusal rate

square that circle

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178052#Comment_120178052

 but we kind of ignored that issue and allowed as many people who wanted to come here.

Sensible people didn't, yet were called all sorts for daring to predict the obvious. Even without the war, we would have ended up where we are eventually, the war just accelerated the process.

Grassy Knoll

The way I see it is Ireland is one of the richest countries in the EU. Our prosperity is based off international trade and interaction across the globe. What does this look like on the ground some will say - try - full employment, jobs for any Irish person who wants to work here, better opportunities than any generation in the past and of course literally billions we cannot spend from corporation tax arising from multinationals based here.

Where I am going with this is we are a country that benefits massively from the EU and international order. As a result we have a responsibility to 'give something back' be it assisting folks suffering conflict and persecution in their own countries (sound familiar ?) or starvation, crisis etc. Some of this involves taking in some of these folks, in other cases providing financial assistance or in some areas military personnel in peacekeeping, training missions or peace enforcement in war torn areas. I feel we by and large are not afraid as a country to put our 'hand into our pocket' and this is something to be proud about. Our long standing approach of free-riding on international developments should not be taken for granted (defence & security, tax receipts etc). This is the realpolitik - we now have money and with that comes international obligations

Issues around housing are not immaterial, but also should not be used by far right elements to sow division or further their own ugly ends. For some of these folks the best we can offer is basic enough, I'm OK with that if that is our best given our current circumstances, as the alternative I presume for genuine refugees be they from Ukraine or elsewhere is presumably worse. Housing is a mess for a number of reasons, including the crash about a decade ago, but also some of those shouting the loudest are also objecting to planning permission which too has consequences. No doubt housing has a lot of complex problems, but these will be resolved in time (perhaps the risk is we will end up with too many)

We need to be very careful where the debate goes - by 'othering' some groups around this issue runs the risk of normalising this anti foreigner approach more widely - and once the lid comes off that jar it becomes very difficult to control the consequences - the Brexit in the UK is a clear example. From reading comments here it has already begun - usually begins with "I'm not a racist but ... ". When not housing it will be access to something else. What starts with refugees will spread to other folks living and working here ...

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178064#Comment_120178064

square that circle? are you telling me we were forced to take in refugees under the European Union Temporary Protection Directive without negotiation? Square that circle indeed. You do know your shapes, right?

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178052#Comment_120178052

What has happened was predictable and was predicted.

The problem was a not a poorly thought through policy, it was a sticking your fingers in your ears, ignoring potential downsides while calling people bigots policy.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178181#Comment_120178181

Why is our refusal rate a sixth of the EU average ?

surely that directive you like waving about applies equally across EU states ?

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178349#Comment_120178349

why are you changing the point? as I said, we need a government that doesnt make promises it cant keep - regardless of your theory that they didnt make any agreements. besides, you are just making my point for me. Who's in charge of the country and in charge of making refusals? Isnt the government by any chance is it?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178367#Comment_120178367

Why are you referring to EU directives with authority and in the next breath refusing to answer a question on the glaring divergence between EU states in terms of how it’s followed?

is France in breach of said directive?, they turn away 70% of AS applicants, we turn away 10%

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178381#Comment_120178381

what are you on about if you dont mind me asking. I said we have a government that made agreements they couldnt keep. you told me they made no agreements. I asked if they were forced to agree to take the number of refugees they agred to take in and then you go off on some waffle about other countires.

Do you agree or not that our government has a responsibility here or not? I say they do - they made agreements they couldnt keep. Was it to look like the EU good boy again? I dont know - but what I do know is the question of 'the glaring divergence between EU states in terms of how it’s followed' is a question Ive no interest in as it has no relevance to my statement.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178404#Comment_120178404

Argue in good faith or stop replying to me , Ireland is part of the EU , we don’t make agreements in relation to asylum application policy independent of the EU

you’re repeating “ we have a government who made agreements “ is just sloganeering

maccored

wasting my time you are. you dont seem to wish to accept that our government made decisions they couldnt deliver on. Off you toddle - Im not interested in the blustering waffle.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178434#Comment_120178434

Oh the irony of the last sentence

you don’t seem to accept that nothing unique to Ireland and more importantly legally binding, was agreed by the Irish government, many EU countries ( mostly the large ones ) often make shiny happy pledges but don’t ever implement fully in practice

people like you fear embarrassment by way of not living up to the expectations of international NGO,s

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177213#Comment_120177213

Landlords can deduct mortgage interest as an expense from their gross rent.

How could any house be in negative equity in 2023? The only way I could imagine is a 100% interest-only mortgage.

Geuze

I do not agree with zero refugees.

I suggest a limit of 1% of the population, i.e. 51,000.

I suggest we adopt a zero asylum-seeker policy.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178173#Comment_120178173

We are not one of the richest countries in the EU.

Have a look at our AIC:

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Ireland's economy is greatly distorted anyway as GDP seems to be the main measurement used in many instances

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/

Ireland being "rich and prosperous" is an argument these types love to rely on, as a justification to continue all the recklessness that's been happening in the country for the last few years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Very interesting map. I have always felt that Germany Austria France and Scandinavia also seemed a lot wealthier than Ireland.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Even we were “ one of the richest countries “, why does that mean we must invite in people from far flung lands?

there is no cement logic to it , it’s just dogma

out priority should be too safeguard what we have accomplished economically and culturally

Sunny Disposition

I went to a meeting in a major town on Saturday, just to hear what was said.

There were racist people there saying racist things, but most people were not racist. They said their town has no school places, no access to GPs and the local hospital is an overcrowded disaster area. After taking in about 700 refugees last year, about 6% of the towns population, the town shouldn’t be asked to take a few hundred more.

It’s very hard to argue with them.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

Isnt this to do with household consumption though?

households that dont spend much contribute to a low score?

Given that 1 in 8 households in Ireland are apparently net millionaires, could it be that the wealthy 12% are particularly frugal and not spending their wealth, which then creates a distored low AIC?

Either way, 1 in 8 households across the country being net millionaires has to be a sign of major wealth within the population. In Dublin it must be 1 in 6 or 7 due to house prices.

What is apparent though is that the wealth is not evenly spread.

dtothebtotheh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178525#Comment_120178525

But we're only building 30k homes a year? and from what I've seen, the infrastructure to support an extra 30k homes a year isn't being built.

dtothebtotheh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178862#Comment_120178862

It's completely skewed, property prices are way overvalued. GDP may be increasing, but for the average person quality of life has been deteriorating for at least the last 15 years.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178862#Comment_120178862

Wealth and real (purchasing power) consumption are only loosely related. Income is the annual flow of money you get, wealth is the stock of assets minus liabilities you have: two very different animals.

Much of Ireland's personal wealth is tried up in housing: (a) its price is somewhat inflated and (b) you can't all that easily consume it.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177441#Comment_120177441

The problem is that in 3rd world countries people are sadly breeding like rabbits. Some readers may take offence in this statement, sadly it's true. Look at Nigeria, close to 200 Million by now, Egypt, over 100 Million, all in not the best climates, and certainly no political stability.

If they were 20 Million in Egypt and maybe 40 Million in Nigeria they could all live well, no need to starve to death or cut down the rain forrest. But no, they have to breed like rabbits, and at every revolution, political instability and food shortages they go to somewhere in Europe, in hope that some benevolent organization feeds them and gives them a visa and tells them they are welcome to stay for however long they want.

It's just not going to work that way.

We could all live and work comfortably in this world if there wasn't such an overpopulation, especially in 3rd world countries.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179327#Comment_120179327

What's their accessibility to healthcare, stable food supply, or access to sex education or indeed, to contraception and abortions as necessary? Compare apples to apples. Instead it's lazier and simpler to make a stereotype of them that 'oh, those people just breed like rabbits for no reason, cannot have them here'

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179466#Comment_120179466

Travellers in Ireland have access to all of the above yet the average traveller woman has six children

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179499#Comment_120179499

Travellers in Ireland are a routinely ostracised community, I don't think that's really a worthwhile exemplar.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179510#Comment_120179510

One could imagine the same institutional oppression being alleged in respect of African immigrants in the future, in fact one could imagine the victim and oppression industry entering a golden age of expansion

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179466#Comment_120179466

The problem is that overpopulation in 3rd world countries lead to political unrest and excessive demands on the environment. It's pretty much like the famine in Ireland, either it's starvation or emigration. Oddly just by the potato harvest the Irish population could grow.

But African or Asian countries are facing similar issues, only it's about bigger population numbers. And then there is climate change and global warming, and that as well will produce refugees, same with political instability.

I wouldn't call it responsible parenthood if a father of 4 or 5 can't earn enough to feed his children. Children who never have a decent future anyway if they are too many of them. And nobody really wants refugees, the political left only if they don't have to pay for them and it's somebody else's money and the ones who's money they want to use are then classified as right wing.

Is it a solution? Sadly no.

Together with climate change the problem of overpopulation must be addressed. And that may lead to more political stability, and a possibility of developing 3rd world countries into more advanced societies. This will also leas to less refugees and certainly not migrant crisis after migrant crisis of transients which no country really wants.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179523#Comment_120179523

One could imagine a spaceship shaped like a ketchup bottle.

So are we saying that you imagine people will want to Other and Ostracize the "African" immigrants with stereotyping or whatever and ___? That's why they shouldn't be allowed in, to reinforce stereotypes or something or our imagined fantasizing of an "oppression industry?" I don't follow.

LeoB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

There is quite a difference from what I have read and what I have seen.

2 neighbors, well qualified went to Australia and to get inn had to show financial ability to sustain themselves for 3 months, Provide an address and name of employer. Nothing handed to them. Yes we can say they were economic migrants but they went to contribute as the Irish did in Canada, USA and New Zealand. What we are getting is totally different. The Irish undocumented in USA are contributing to USA economy paying Tax etc which is why they are allowed stay once they keep their nose clean.

I welcome people here if they are contributing. I had surgery twice in last 3 years. On each occasion there were 4 Non national staff out of 6 working in theatre. People have no issue with this or people working in Tech or hospitality. But for Helen McEntee to say publicly on Radio we let in 4,000 who destroyed or didnt have paperwork or passports is shocking and wrong. We got €60 million from EU to take in 5,000 over a few years but what happens if these people stay? Who pays? How will we care for them later on? What happens to Irish pensions, will we have to work longer to foot the bill?

I think we have to call a halt until we have procedures to deal with people in a prompt manner, 28 days. If application fails they have to be removed from the country. We cant sustain the current levels of immigration.

Finally the violence against these immigrants is wrong. But I fear it will get worse if gov dont start acting.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179554#Comment_120179554

In what respect are you using the term 3rd world country? Ireland has never sought membership in NATO, it's not part of the Soviet Block - Ireland is incidentally insofar as I know, not 3rd world either. Are you suggesting that overpopulation only leads to political unrest in 3rd world countries? If not why make that qualification in the statement.

Blaming fathers in "african or asian countries" (the brush has really flown far from Egypt and Nigeria now) for 4 or 5 children? It's a bit like blaming the Irish for the same during the Famine no, and missing many of the key points about contraception, sex education, family planning, and indeed, stability?

The time to address climate change and overpopulation was decades ago, the climate to preserve is gone now, and the population to address is here.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175274#Comment_120175274

Are other countries letting people in with no passports?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179611#Comment_120179611

I am using the term 3rd world countries for Africa and parts of the Middle East.

I am stating that Europe has right on the doorstep a couple of countries which are hopeless cases. They will be the source of civil unrest, corruption, revolution and possible starvation. They will also be the source where refugees will come from, and climate change will accelerate that.

It may be harsh language, or difficult to understand for some, but it needs to be addressed that one can't have so many children, on so little income to support them, and endlessly hope for compassion and benevolence.

This simply won't work that way, it's just unnatural. It also won't work to integrate or try to integrate foreign migrants and refugees who don't accept our legal structure and can't even read or write. It's also not ours to teach them that. I think such people should stay where they are.

Yes, it's harsh, yes somebody liberal or left might take offence in that opinion, but it's only for our own good and protection. Europe as a whole should first fixt it's own problems.

LeoB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166920#Comment_120166920

The Irish "chancers" you talk about are allowed stay in the USA because they work hard and keep their noses out of trouble. No free accomodation, no medical cards or free travel and they dont demand stuff of american government. The are invaluable to US economy. They also went legally and just overstayed their visa. Once they step out of line they are deported which is fair enough. A lot have come home and reapplied to stay in the states which is what a lad on my football team did. He was accepted and now doing really well with his own home which he wouldn't have here. If USA wanted they could deport thousands tomorrow but dont because the Irish work.

We are a dumping ground and our politicans are being reckless.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177195#Comment_120177195

The moral of the story is housing should be built as national infrastructure to meet the housing needs of the country, and not left in the hands of boom bust economic cycles with property speculators and developers hoarding development land and every other land owner objecting to every development because they would harm their own property values

(not to mention all those brown envelopes floating around the tents at the galway races for decades)

Housing can be provided as a National infrastructure, a resource like transport, roads, schools etc

The model that we should be emulating is the Austrian model

in Vienna public housing is extremely well built, attractive to people from a wide income range, and affordable because they are not for profit and built to be attractive and to last.

https://www.housingmodeldublin.ie/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/12/vienna-housing-policy-uk-rent-controls

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

In terms of Median Income, we're just slightly below the UK

Kermit.de.frog

What's the line the church is taking on this?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179624#Comment_120179624

Its illegal under international law to refuse an asylum application on the basis that the applicant doesn't have the necessary documents to enter legally

Think of it. You're fleeing Saudi or North Korea. You apply for a passport, the King or son of the dead leader who's still the leader decides to yoink you in for re-education, and your friends and family while they're at it.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179577#Comment_120179577

Sure you do , people like you will enthusiastically allege institutional prejudice against African immigrants the same way you do about travellers ,so even African immigrants move here and ( like travellers ) have access to healthcare, contraception, family planning information yet still choose to have very large families, you will cheerfully play the systematic oppression card

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179867#Comment_120179867

I cannot address paranoid delusions about what I would do etc. in some concocted scenario. I don't know where I 'enthusiastically alleged' what you are saying I have. I can't help you argue with your imagination.

"African immigrants move here and ( like travellers ) have access to healthcare, contraception, family planning information yet still choose to have very large families"

Citation needed.

hotmail.com

We have a zero refugee policy at the moment if you're male. They won't be accommodated when they arrive here.

Nosler

Like it or lump it. But Ireland has a policy of appeasement when it comes to immigration.

There simply is no political will when it comes to deporting failed asylum seekers or people that destroy their passports.

If Ireland started deporting failed asylum seekers etc there would be mass riots in Dublin. I just dont think the Garda have the manpower to put down a riot of a couple of thousand bogus asylum seekers....

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179894#Comment_120179894

"177 people the subject of deportation orders have left State so far this year

Most deportees leave State voluntarily, says Department of Justice, with just 16 enforced deportations

"

....? Which 'failed asylum seekers' still haven't left?

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/10/24/177-people-the-subject-of-deportation-orders-have-left-state-so-far-this-year/

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179792#Comment_120179792

Places like Japan take virtually no asylum seekers.nothing happens to them? There is no international court that gives them a fine?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179888#Comment_120179888

When it was pointed out to you that travellers have unmanageably large families despite having access to contraception , family planning information and healthcare, you claimed systematic discrimination was the cause there

own what you said

Akrasia

...

Akrasia

The point being, Japan are borderline ethnic nationalists. So are China. They don't have equality or diversity as part of their identity.

And they're vulnerable to returning to dictatorship as a result.

Maybe you'd like that though. Given how so many right wing folks love the idea of Singapore which is essentially a dictatorship

Nosler

I'll be honest. If asylum seekers had anything to offer us their home countries wouldn't be hell holes...

Somalia has a life expectancy of 56. They dont have any decent universities etc. No real industry or economy etc. There has been civil war for decades. Lots of people on the verge of starving to death. They have a medieval view towards women and homosexuals.

However when a Somalian comes to the West we're meant to rejoice because of "cultural enrichment" and "multiculturalism". If you're against this immigration you're obviously a "right wing extremist racist".

The whole thing is just bizarre.