Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507723#Comment_122507723

So what you're saying is our immigrants are putting strain on the health system?

ShamNNspace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507661#Comment_122507661

Well like a good storm it might clear the air, something from the left field might save us all in the end, better off in the long run…either way it's gonna come to a head sooner or later and maybe it'll be some unexpected event that'll temper the madness and bring some pragmatism to the situation, we can't save the world, like a parasite the ngo complex has got far too large and gained far too much influence in government and media circles, they need to be culled and then maybe we can move on with the welfare of the citizens paramount and leave something better for our grandchildren than is promised by these fantasists if they're let have their way

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507764#Comment_122507764

The way the government are burning through mountains of money for no benefit to the country, it is not inconceivable that the IMF could end up back here again.

If that happens they will go hard, asylum seekers and citizens would be in for a rough ride.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507556#Comment_122507556

So a 25% increase in population served by ONE hospital, with no discernible plan for increasing the capacity of a hospital already struggling to cope is not going to have any negative impact? And where are that extra 100,000 people coming from given the birth rate here currently is 1.7 (it needs to be over 2 for the population to grow without immigration of any sort)

A 25% increase in population served by UHL means the hospital needs a 40% increase in beds, staffing etc to get it to some sort of acceptable service.

At a time when Teachers, Nurses etc are being enticed abroad by better pay and far better working conditions.

Are you for real?

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507759#Comment_122507759

No, I'm not exactly. But the claim was made that asylum seekers would provide less stress on the health system than the equivalent native Irish person. I was pointing to a demonstrable health cost were this would not be true. It may be that there are other conditions were Irish people have a higher rate than asylum seekers, such as say diabetes or health disease (I have no figures to back this up). It's irrelevant anyway. The more people in the country the more stress on the health system. Asylum seekers by law are supposed to have certain needs met and the Irish health, housing and education system will not be able to cope with the number currently entering the country for long. The vast majority are demonstrably not genuine asylum seekers, but economic migrants abusing the system meant for people fleeing danger. The government should be focused on people legally resident in Ireland, whether born here, legally immigrated here or were allowed in as genuine refugees.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122506347#Comment_122506347

In every other country people would put aside their differences with the main opposition party in order to remove an unpopular government. Keir Starmer and Kamala Harris aren't exactly inspiring leaders and wouldn't be high on the priority list for people in either country but they're able to recognise the choice is either them or more of the same.

In Ireland we moan and complain as the country sinks further and further with the 100+ year duopoly yet convince ourselves the untested alternative would definitely be worse somehow.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507723#Comment_122507723

The graphic you linked to indicates the increase only in recent years though, it doesn’t show the existing cases among the Irish population.

I am not saying this to vilify people coming here seeking asylum or foreign nationals. But to plan and allow for a properly functioning health system these realities need to be acknowledged and it is simply wrong to state that asylum seekers cost the Health service less than native Irish people.

I know you’re not, but these realities are already acknowledged, in the literature already provided, which demonstrates the point that asylum seekers DO cost the health service less than native Irish people, and shows the reasons why they cost the health service less than Irish people - because they have far less interactions with the health service in the first place.

It’s true that poverty isn’t a reason for granting refugee status, but it IS a reason for seeking asylum, by asylum seekers. You’ll refer to them as economic migrants, but that term has no meaning in law. They can be both - economic migrants, AND asylum seekers (and that’s notwithstanding the fact that asylum seekers can still be granted international protection on Humanitarian grounds).

Government figures don’t indicate what you’re suggesting either. All Government figures indicate is the estimated figure for asylum seekers whose application for asylum has been rejected. Government figures don’t make any suggestion that their claims are bogus, or not genuine or anything else. It’s very simple - either they meet the criteria, or they don’t, and their claim is rejected. They can appeal the decision, and sometimes those appeals are successful -

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/court-quashes-tribunals-decision-to-refuse-refugee-status-to-man-who-pretended-he-was-gay-1342953.html

And sometimes, they’re not:

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2022/0405/1290601-high-court-challenge/

Government figures do not demonstrate anything about whether asylum seekers claims are genuine or bogus.

It’s also true that The State doesn’t have the resources to provide accommodation for an increasing number of people seeking asylum, but that doesn’t mean The State can simply forego the international obligations which it signed up to, which include an obligation to provide for anyone seeking asylum. Unfortunately what has happened historically is that successive Governments instead of investing in the provision of services owned and managed by The State, has chosen instead to pay private providers out of public funds for the use of their resources.

Roderic O’ Gorman, as the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (that’s quite a mouthful 😳), has proposed a means to reverse that trend, so that in the long term The State isn’t going to be caught on the hop by circumstances that nobody could possibly have predicted such as the exponential increase in applications for asylum which are being witnessed all across Europe, not just in Ireland, which is why cooperation among European Union Member States is required, as opposed to the likes of countries like The UK and Denmark who wish to violate international Human Rights Law in order absent themselves from their international obligations which they signed up to when it benefited them, and now wish to abandon when they have to give something back. I don’t wish to see Ireland going down the same route, because whatever economic uncertainties exist now, they are nothing compared to the economic guarantee of this country becoming a shìthole for all but the people who already enjoy the greatest economic advantages in Irish society if we were to follow the UK and Denmark’s lead.

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507865#Comment_122507865

I would be probably the first person in the queue to moan and complain about this party and lets face they don't exactly make it easy to like them e.g the referendum debacle and stupidity of their immigration policy BUT I've gone to this stage I cannot stand seeing FG/FF in power any longer and seeing our country burn anymore.

Posters might fear SF will make immigration worse, how could they make this **** show anymore worse unless they get a ferry over to France and asked all the illegals to jump in…..

It's a pity my local SF candidate is Martin Browne but through my greeted teeth ill have to put him in my top 3

Something has to change in this country

baldbear

A huge population growth and our elderly and youngest will suffer due to lack of healthcare services. I don't understand the governments horn for increasing the population so drastically.

baldbear

A huge population growth and our elderly and youngest will suffer due to lack of healthcare services. I don't understand the governments horn for increasing the population so drastically.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507790#Comment_122507790

Are you for real?

I’m very much for real, whereas your point is based upon nothing more than pie in the sky nonsense that you’ve extracted from a pie in the sky plan. It’s a plan, but it was always aspirational, including the potential to increase the population in cities outside Dublin by 100%.

That won’t even be achievable by 2040 regardless of the number of immigrants who settle in Ireland, let alone the idea that they would need to breed like rabbits as well as significantly increasing the amount of immigrants who will be necessary to fill existing gaps in employment in Ireland already, as you point out - teachers, nurses, etc. Even recent changes to immigration policy have only been beneficial to less than 2,000 doctors who have chosen to immigrate to Ireland:

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f5335-up-to-1800-doctors-to-benefit-from-changes-to-immigration-rules/

The issues with healthcare and education aren’t new, they’ve existed for decades. Immigration hasn’t, and won’t have any significant impact either negative or positive on those issues. The whole country doesn’t stop just because you’re not happy with where it’s going.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507923#Comment_122507923

1,000,000 bigger population won't have a significant impact on basic services?

Cloud cuckoo land.

8 out of 10 school got zero applications to ads for positions and schools are back in 2 week with 550 unfilled positions.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507865#Comment_122507865

Who is the alternative.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507938#Comment_122507938

Who’s saying that though? Because that’s not what you were claiming originally. Of course an increase in the population will require an increase in public spending on public services, and the current impact due to the lack of funding has always been there. If nothing changes, then I’d be in agreement with you that an increase of 100,000 in the local population would significantly impact upon services as they are currently being provided. The plan contains proposals to support the increase in the population. That’s the key part you keep leaving out.

8 out of 10 school got zero applications to ads for positions and schools are back in 2 week with 550 unfilled positions.

So what? That’s always been the case. It has nothing to do with immigration, though one of the means to address the shortage would be to increase immigration to try and attract teachers from abroad who are qualified to teach in Ireland (that too takes time), but it is also supported by Government initiatives to increase places in Ireland for teacher training and more provisions for teaching assistants in schools:

All contained in this report:

https://assets.gov.ie/246552/96fc2eb5-b7c9-4a17-afbc-de288a471b3f.pdf

RoyalCelt

Sweden now following in Denmark's footsteps. I wonder what countries will be top of their list to re-emigrate to? I'm going to take a wild guess and say we'll be seeing an increase in lads coming from Sweden. Has Roderic tweeted out in Swedish yet? Would probably need a few additional languages for some of these though.

https://twitter.com/RMXnews/status/1824040900013494736?t=qfkjRFR4d1BKeftP7DlK8g&s=19

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507983#Comment_122507983

And given our inability so far to keep pace with the infrastructure needs, the plan is rubbish. The only part of the plan they will succeed in is the 1000000 extra people.

On Paper v reality in this country are a million miles apart

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Bribing them to leave, god they really fucked up didnt they

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508014#Comment_122508014

They won’t even succeed in that much, it simply isn’t feasible. The most helpful thing anyone can do is take both claims with a pinch of salt rather than getting their knickers in a bunch over nothing.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507983#Comment_122507983

24 years ago.

How has that come along.....

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2020/0625/1149536-metro-dublin/

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508020#Comment_122508020

One of our more prominent posters swore it was all far right lies. All their Swedish friends think they did a great job and love all the new arrivals.

Also Denmark, Sweden and Finland are joining forces to help deal with the problems Sweden has resulting from unchecked mass migration the exact way we are currently doing it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nordic-countries-join-forces-combat-spread-swedish-gang-crime-2024-08-14/

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507874#Comment_122507874

As regards EU asylum claims, the discrepancy between the increase in asylum claims in the EU and the increase in asylum claims in Ireland is considerable. Asylum applications in the EU increased 50% from 2021 to 2022, in Ireland they increased 400% from 2021 to 2022. Compared with pre-COVID figures, there was a 34% increase in asylum applications in the EU between 2019 and 2022, there was a 186% increase in Ireland. 
As regards the Danish model of asylum, Denmark remains an EU Member State and is involved in EU cooperation as regards asylum. The Danish model is consistent with EU and international law. Policies of deterrence are being adopted by multiple EU Member States including Sweden which reported the lowest level of asylum applications in decades. Policies of deterrence would be particularly effective in Ireland, considering Ireland’s geography and the fact that the majority - between 50% to 70% - of asylum applications in the State are a consequence of secondary movement. Quality of life in Denmark is one of the highest in the EU, higher than in Ireland.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Paying chancers to voluntary leave, Christ above the west is rapidly falling apart kowtowing to these frauds, just feck them out like any sensible country would do, I know for a fact they would not stand for this in middle eastern countries. So why the heck should we sit back and take it while our own natives suffer, none of this make any sense.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Sweden recorded the lowest level of asylum in decades after implementing policies of deterrence consistent with the Danish model.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508093#Comment_122508093

It's kinda too late for Sweden though. They had too many years like we're having now where Denmark nipped it in the bud. Us Europeans have really become a soft touch. We get walked all over by our governments.

Our only hope is Europe becomes right wing. It will too long for Ireland. We're cornered. Our right wing parties are in power and leading this madness. The opposition are left wing and would double down.

Scar001

Tuam next 100+ IPAs on their way.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508229#Comment_122508229

I agree that the extent of the issue in Sweden is significant, I mention it because Sweden was one of the primary destinations for asylum seekers and the introduction of policies of deterrence has altered that considerably - it is evidence of the effectiveness of policies of deterrence. The problem is in implementing them in a timely manner, considering the political response to the asylum crisis, I’d be inclined to agree that European politics (or an economic crisis) will have an impact before any domestic policies.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508311#Comment_122508311

Saw that, throwing out the Ukrainians, must be more money housing the other lot. Don't think the local community will be to happy with this.

https://www.tuamherald.ie/2024/08/15/tuam-hotel-to-home-100-asylum-seekers/

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508451#Comment_122508451

Too much money to be made for a small few and NGO hacks.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507949#Comment_122507949

Sinn Fein, the only party running enough candidates to form an alternative.

Do people think we don't live in a democracy where FF&FG can be voted out or what's with that question?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508065#Comment_122508065

As regards EU asylum claims, the discrepancy between the increase in asylum claims in the EU and the increase in asylum claims in Ireland is considerable. Asylum applications in the EU increased 50% from 2021 to 2022, in Ireland they increased 400% from 2021 to 2022. Compared with pre-COVID figures, there was a 34% increase in asylum applications in the EU between 2019 and 2022, there was a 186% increase in Ireland. 

That comparison doesn't make any sense? You're comparing a single country which has had years of relatively small numbers of asylum claims compared to other countries in the EU, with the EU as a whole, in a single year post-travel restrictions when there was a war going on in Eastern Europe and everyone and their mother was trying to get to safety. The more relevant figures then in that case are the total number of asylum seekers across the EU in 2022, and what percentage of that figure applied for asylum in Ireland:

A total of 13,651 applications for international protection were made in 2022. This marked a significant increase from previous years (a 415% increase from 2021 and a 186% increase from 2019, the last comparable year before COVID-19 travel restrictions), and the highest number of asylum applications on record in Ireland. The top three countries of origin were Georgia, Algeria and Somalia. Applications for international protection in Ireland accounted for 1.3% of the EU total.

Annual Report on Migration and Asylum 2022: Ireland - The European Migration Network (emn.ie)

(bold emphasis my own)

As regards the Danish model of asylum, Denmark remains an EU Member State and is involved in EU cooperation as regards asylum. The Danish model is consistent with EU and international law. Policies of deterrence are being adopted by multiple EU Member States including Sweden which reported the lowest level of asylum applications in decades. Policies of deterrence would be particularly effective in Ireland, considering Ireland’s geography and the fact that the majority - between 50% to 70% - of asylum applications in the State are a consequence of secondary movement.

Of the 27 Member States in the EU, or the 46 Member States in the Council of Europe, how many is 'multiple', that are adopting deterrence policies similar to that of Denmark and the UK? You could have put the Swedish claim in it's proper context, but that would have shown that there are good reasons for the year-on-year decline - the Swedish economy, much like the UK, is in bits. It's why for the first time they have net emigration, and that's not a good thing:

The data shows a 15 percent year-on-year decrease in immigration in Sweden during the early part of 2024, while emigration rose by 60 percent over the same period. Asylum applications have continued to fall, reaching their lowest level since 1997.

The trend is particularly evident among people born in countries like Iraq, Somalia, and Syria, where net immigration figures were negative in 2023. According to preliminary statistics from Statistics Sweden, the country has experienced negative net immigration up to May of this year.

Sweden transforms from welcoming haven to net emigration (economymiddleeast.com)

Economic forecast for Sweden - European Commission (europa.eu)

Policies of deterrence would be effective in doing what, exactly? Because apart from tanking a country's economy, which they are highly effective in doing, they don't do much else, well, they're not particularly cost effective either as the asylum seekers, even if Sweden, Denmark or indeed Italy ever DO ever manage to send an asylum seeker to a third country - they'll just leave that country and apply for asylum in the same country again! There's nothing to suggest that similar policies which haven't worked anywhere else, would fare any better in Ireland, even considering the idea that between 50 - 70% of applications for asylum in Ireland are a consequence of secondary movement. That's really not any different to anywhere else, when you consider what is meant by the term secondary movement:

The total number of applications (gross number) in Europe is higher than the actual number, as many are registered in more than one country. Around one quarter of all asylum seekers in Denmark are returned to other countries or accepted back to Denmark from other countries because of fingerprints or visa (Dublin procedure), and some have their case dismissed for other reasons.

Number of refugees in Denmark compared to rest of Europe

Quality of life in Denmark is one of the highest in the EU, higher than in Ireland.

So what? They're also one of the world's leading producers of sperm for the export market:

The Brexit crisis nobody is talking about? Our need for Danish sperm | WIRED (archive.ph)

I guess it depends on how you quantify quality of life and measure it and compare it, but I wouldn't want to live there, so perhaps that's why I'm not seeing your point.