Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508586#Comment_122508586

You keep posting these links to report, governments white papers etc. you seem to have some confidence that government will deliver on the "plan" however we don't see the infrastructure and services part of the plan coming to fruition. That all needs to be started now. Get there is no planning applications under way for the new houses, schools, hospitals etc currently lodged.

Limerick would need 40000 new homes by 2040 given average occupancy in the state is 2.6 people per unit, so I presume you have a link showing the plan to build these houses and apartments, the required major water and sewage upgrades are underway, the energy grid upgrades to facilitate this are underway, the new school and healthcare facilities are all underway?

There is a video on Twitter of a Dundrum resident speaking to a garda the other day. They have no Garda in the area, and one elderly doctor who has no room for more patients. Surely the government would have figured out this bit first. Provides services then increase the population, but it's been done the wrong way around.

And if these folks do get rejected, appeal, then an amnesty, what next for the areas they are dumped in?

Or will they all migrate towards Dublin city centre? Putting an ever increasing demand for piss poor supply on housing, driving rents up even further. Paschal Donoghue says Dublin city centre is not dying. The chap needs to take a walk around OConnell street and surrounding areas. It's uninviting, some areas just off OConnell Street are full of intimidating groups of men loitering about and those Roma folks, streets are filthy and some areas reek of Urine.

I kinda like the PB4P idea if it was done right. Let the asylum seekers work. No state accommodation provided, no HAP, no social welfare, Give them a PPSN and and tell them they are on their own, they dont qualify for social welfare until they have worked for a year minimum. Let's see how long they stick around. Any criminal involvement and your out the door.

Reality. Government have no plan other then lining the pockets of themselves as landlords and making a small few people very wealthy off the back of ridiculous contracts. And when this all comes crumbling down when a recession hits, it will be the ordinary Irish working person who takes the biggest hit.

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508586#Comment_122508586

Your very good at putting your own hypothesis on data and manipulating it to suit your own agenda.

Would you have any supporting evidence to support the hypothesis that deterring asylum seekers "tanks" an economy.

You might not want to live in Denmark but Scandinavian countries overwhelmingly rank top countries for quality of life.

When you also have these same countries Sweden, Denmark and Finland tightening emigration policy when traditionally it's the most progressive region on the planet, there is obviously a reason. The reason been, the have discovered that this mass migration does not bring a overall positive contribution.

Norway outside of three EU doesn't have the same issues to deal with.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-of-life

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508611#Comment_122508611

You keep posting these links to report, governments white papers etc. you seem to have some confidence that government will deliver on the "plan"…

I wouldn’t go thaaaat far 😬

however we don't see the infrastructure and services part of the plan coming to fruition. That all needs to be started now. Get there is no planning applications under way for the new houses, schools, hospitals etc currently lodged.

Good idea:

https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=26b6e93dcd1044ff8fa2bd1a772a6080

It’s an interactive map of all the 2040 projects currently going on around the country and the different stages in the process they’re at.

Bad idea:

https://www.thejournal.ie/dundrum-tipperary-asylum-seekers-6456372-Aug2024/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508681#Comment_122508681

Would you have any supporting evidence to support the hypothesis that deterring asylum seekers "tanks" an economy.

I do:

https://www.bruegel.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RefugeeReturnOCPPC-1.pdf

Purely from an economic standpoint, attempts to deter asylum seekers has the opposite effect on an economy than any perceived benefit. It’s nothing more than a costly and futile political exercise that appeals to short-term types only thinking of their own wants.

When I see countries like the Nordic countries topping quality of life lists, and Ireland is up there too btw, I don’t pay much heed to them, they’re often nothing more than clickbait lists. When I see countries that were once perceived internationally as being beacons of liberal ideology and democracy and so on, it doesn’t take much to scratch beneath the surface to realise that they have historically failed to integrate immigrants and asylum seekers into the host nation. Historically they’ve done exactly the opposite, which is why social integration fails. Immigrants are traditionally perceived as being cheap labour, and when a country begins to experience economic recession, that’s when a handful of the natives start pointing fingers at those people who they believe are responsible.

(That isn’t typically limited to immigrants either, more often it’s just aimed at anyone who doesn’t share their perspective)

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508877#Comment_122508877

Good points here. Countries like Sweden and Denmark can't really be compared to Ireland. As you suggest, they have done a very poor job of integrating non nationals and asylum seekers, leading to the emergence of ghettos and violence on the streets (something that is happening in no way or shape or form in Ireland).

I was watching a video this week of an American travel blogger who has visited dozens of countries in Europe many times over in the last 20 years and he reckons Denmark is by far the unfriendliest. They don't even like tourists visiting the country, never mind people moving there to live.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

Maybe they're on to something seeing what's going on with their neighbours ?

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

Be friendlier thats your plan and it will all be fine no matter how many immigrants come and no matter what their views on western society are?

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

hmmm, a bit deluded there, it seems like you are saying its European countries fault but it will workout well this time , I wouldnt bet the house on that

rdser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

And we're doing a great job of integrating people into hotels and tents or the streets? Give me a break. Our efforts are an utter joke. The government have made a pigs ear of it.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

And we are doing an amazing job putting 300 in a village of 180 people with no amenities? Or how about 1000 men in tents in a field in rural Dublin with nothing around? Yeah, we are so cleverly integrating them unlike those dumb Swedish. We'll just be friendly and the magic will happen!

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509163#Comment_122509163

The magic leprechauns over the rainbow will surely help

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509040#Comment_122509040

There is an ideology behind all this that does not appear to think about longterm consequences. I have seen it here and over on reddit, as well as in real life.

If the government is being guided by the same ideology then we may be truly fucked.

It appears to take shallow feel good platitudes as the be all and end all, while ignoring real world consequences and reactions.

Any consequences and reactions can just be hand waved away as being the fault of malcontents and the uneducated who just don't understand. As they are not up to the same moral calibre as the practitioner then they can be safely ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.

A morality contest, where the aim is to be purer than the person next to you, all other considerations be damned.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509163#Comment_122509163

What could possibly go wrong by placing 1000 males all into a secure encampment in rural areas:

https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/wethersfield-life-behind-gates-essex-9419995

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509087#Comment_122509087

I totally agree on that point (but that also debunks the claim by the far right clowns that we are welcoming asylum seekers with open arms and giving them everything they want).

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509163#Comment_122509163

All of that is correct and the government have clearly made a pig's ear of their asylum policy. But we are not Denmark and we should not be using Denmark (or Sweden for that matter) as a template for how we want to organise our society. They seem far from a success in how they are managing integration and a changing demographic….quite the opposite in fact.

Lotus Flower

I think there’s a certain arrogance and superiority to thinking that we will be able to succeed where other countries have failed. Ah yeah but we’re much nicer and friendlier people so we’ll do a better job

rdser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509309#Comment_122509309

It doesnt prove that at all. Some are very well looked after.

Lotus Flower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509380#Comment_122509380

exactly, it does not debunk that. It only proves that so many keep going to the point that we can’t keep up with the numbers. And there is a reason so many keep coming

Gamergurll

Delusional.. Strazdas I'm curious about how you think we are successfully integrating these men?

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509424#Comment_122509424

Through rainbows and good vibes?

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508586#Comment_122508586

If the claim is that an exponential increase in asylum EU-wide is the reason for an exponential increase in asylum domestically, then comparing the percentage increase in Ireland with the percentage increase in the EU is absolutely warranted. In referencing “an exponential increase in asylum across Europe” the implication is that that EU is experiencing significant levels of asylum in contrast with previous years - this is untrue. 

Instead, it is apparent that there was a moderate increase in asylum EU-wide and an exponential increase in asylum in Ireland, this despite Ireland - as an island on the edge of Europe - generally being isolated from the effects of illegal migration. With EU statistics indicating that Ireland had the highest level of asylum applications per capita, it is abundantly obvious that this less an EU-wide trend, than a domestic issue prompted by inadequate policy. The radical development as regards asylum is domestic rather than Europe-wide.

On policies of deterrence, the Minister for Migration has attributed the decrease in asylum applications to Government policy, noting the increase in emigration from nationals of Iraq, Somalia and Syria. Germany, in contrast, has experienced an increase in asylum applications despite the state of the German economy. One would expect that economic performance would be of greater concern to economic migrants than it would to asylum applicants with a well founded fear of persecution… 

Policies of deterrence are effective in decreasing asylum applications from economic migrants engaging in secondary movement from EU Member States. At present, between 50% and 70% of asylum applications in the State are from those engaging in secondary movement. Policies of deterrence include effecting deportations, however, the primary purpose is to disincentivise asylum applications in the first instance. I’d certainly be interested in a source demonstrating that policies of deterrence result in economic decline, the article provided discusses deportations only - as discussed, the entire purpose of policies of deterrence is to deter application in the first place and it has a demonstrated effect; it is why asylum applications in Sweden are decreasing, it is why asylum applications in Denmark, Norway and Finland are low. To reduce policies of deterrence to deportations is to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of the policy. 

Interesting to note that you went from doubting the secondary movement statistic as it relates to Ireland, to applying to to all EU Member States. Quite a jump!

 

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509379#Comment_122509379

Your looking at it wrong. The objective is not to look after asylum seekers and integrate them. It's to transfer tax payers money to a small number of well connected individuals. Once you recognise that fact all the government policies and actions make perfect sense

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509595#Comment_122509595

I mean maybe but I think the OP was aimed at regular Joe voters on this thread.

Some may be loosely connected to migration/asylum services but majority are just naieve people who think positive energy is an actual commodity.

dublin49

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509595#Comment_122509595

This is Qnon logic,take a new phenomenon and conjure a conspiracy theory.There are definitely billions being made by those that could supply services to help a totally bereft Government flaying around for solutions but they did not cause immigration,rather they were quick to take advantage of a highly profitable situation.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509846#Comment_122509846

All the main operators have political connections. Very naive to talk about conspiracy theories and vulnerable government. Did you believe the politial connections to building developers that caused the last crash was also a conspiracy theory.

A small number of well connected individuals have used the government to give them tax payers money going back decades. This gets exposed again and again. Apologies are made then on to the next scam.

dublin49

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509953#Comment_122509953

All the main operators of anything of worth in this country will have political connections.Whether its business or sport or whatever,it the way of the world.Doesn't mean its a conspiracy,no doubt there's been some profiteering .Immigration is a global phenomenon ,has been increasing exponentially world wide,every western country bar probably Hungary has it top of its priorities to reduce and control ,doubt the whole thing was orchestrated by a few gombeen politicos in Strokestown.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122510012#Comment_122510012

The connected individuals did not create the immigration crises but government policies and actions since prioritise transferring tax payers money to the connected individuals rather than helping asylum seekers and integrating them. The policies and actions have therefore made the crises much worse than it needed to be.

Hard for many to accept that the policies are not designed to help asylum seekers but give it time.

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122510084#Comment_122510084

And it kind of frustrates me that people don't see it, given we have a whole Economic system of Gombeenomics that has consistently feathered the nests of the few connected at the expense of the Irish taxpayer, for decades! And we all know this happens, too!

Unless they are an intrinsic part of the Asylum Seeker Economic Ecosystem themselves, of course.

Geuze

The largest homeless hub for families is run by the Salvation Army in Dublin.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0816/1465281-ireland-homeless/

62 families, 350 people, so 5.5 people per family on average.

Of the 62 families, 17 are Irish.

I can see why or how this issue is driving people demented. Why are we trying to house the whole world?

"The Calauz family is one of 62 families at the hub, 17 are Irish and 45 are from countries including Somalia, Romania, Germany, and South Africa."

"Andra Calauz, her husband and seven children have lived at Houben House for four years when they could no longer remain in private accommodation.

Andra Calauz said cooking for her children is difficult as there are no cooking facilities in their room

Despite the tight squeeze, Andra keeps life as normal as possible for her children, the youngest is just six months old."

Why did they have the seventh baby if they are homeless?

jippo nolan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122511021#Comment_122511021

maybe Andra is fond of the mutton!