Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519769#Comment_122519769

Not a crushing reality for me. But to those who shout and scream at Irish politicians as if they can do anything substantial about it , it must be.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519769#Comment_122519769

What hard boarder approach? You keep going on about this supposed hard border approach - there isn't one. With the exception of Poland and arguably the cities of Ceuta and Melilla anyone can just walk into any EU country and claim asylum.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519757#Comment_122519757

None of it particularly stands out to be honest.

Cherry picking statistics like that tell very little without context.

How much are Iraqi men represented in demographic groups more likely to commit sexual offences? Are people living in accommodation centers more likely to be reported than domestic abusers? What constitutes a sexual offence? (in some countries catcalling is classified as a sexual offense, while I think it something that shouldn't be tolerated, I wouldn't categorize it in the same terms as sexual assault, rape etc)

One of these reports claimed IPAs were far more highly involved in 'fraud'. It sounds shocking until it emerged that 'fraud' in this case included public travel fare-dodging and the possibility that IPAs, like any newcomer might, simply didn't understand the payment system.

Fred_Johnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519872#Comment_122519872

Did you seriously just call Iraqi men having a sexual assault rate 12.8 times that of native men "cherrypicking" and then pretend the issue is how you define sexual assault? Have you some reason to think Statistics Finland define sexual assault incorrectly?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519914#Comment_122519914

Cherrypicking is cherrypicking regardless of the crime or nationalities involved.

There's decades of studies on criminality from all sorts of perspectives. I can't think of any serious approach that would simply look at raw categorical figures like that and think job done, no more to say.

As for sexual assault figures, the report clearly looks more broadly at sexual offences. I'll assume you innocently misreported than Iraqi men are more likely to commit sexual assault and leave it to yourself to acknowledge your error. You also forgot to mention this qualifier from the report.

This only concerns suspected offences, which the police have moved to consideration of charges. This does not necessarily result in a charge or judgement. An offence committed by a casual acquaintance or a stranger is easier to report to the police than, for example, an offence committed by one’s spouse.

Comparing these type of figures is notoriously difficult across countries, regardless of whether it's Finland or not.

https://bra.se/bra-in-english/home/news-from-bra/archive/news/2020-09-30-difficult-to-compare-rape-statistics-in-european-countries.html

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519967#Comment_122519967

I'm not quite sure that "Ah sure it's only a suspected sexual offense thats almost 13 times more disproportionate than that of native citizens, not REAL sexual offense" is the hill I would choose to die on.

DaithiMa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519872#Comment_122519872

"IPAs, like any newcomer might, simply didn't understand the payment system."

Ah come on now, most IPAs travel halfway across the world, usually through multiple European countries, and you are suggesting they don't understand how to pay to get on a bus or train? You are surely having a laugh with this argument.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520053#Comment_122520053

That's just one factor though.

A serious look at something like this would also consider demographic overrepresentations, bias in reporting, and how these categories are defined.

I've had a quick look at Finland's definition of sexual offences and it does seem to include harassment and offences where no physical contact took place.

https://oikeusministerio.fi/en/sexualoffenceslaw

I'm not for a minute defending catcalling or verbal harassment, I find it abhorrent but I do think it's quite likely that people from different cultural backgrounds might be overrepresented.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520107#Comment_122520107

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Are you suggesting that the people from a different cultural background, simply weren't used to not being sexually abusive?

What other reason would there be for a 13x over representation?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520092#Comment_122520092

I don't think it unreasonable that people in a foreign country might not understand a train payment system. Especially if they don't speak the language.

I reckon I'm guilty as charged of this particular type of 'fraud' on more than one occasion.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520119#Comment_122520119

I'm saying that it's quite possible that people from other cultural backgrounds might be far more likely to be guilty of verbal harassment which would skew their representation in the overall category.

Then there's the other factors such as demographic overrepresentation, bias in reporting etc.

This is an old report but I think quite interesting as it shows Irish people as twice as likely to commit violent crime than people from other part of the world (including a middle eastern country), and Irish people as one of the most violent nationalities in the world.

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/tandi117.pdf

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520119#Comment_122520119

This also happened

Norway Offers Migrants a Lesson in How to Treat Women - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

But sure we are only getting all the good ones anyway, scamming our joke of an asylum process and then being allowed to stay because we can't be bothered dealing with anything.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520159#Comment_122520159

So you accept the fact that the mass importing of people from other cultural backgrounds will likely increase the risk of sexual assault (even if "only" verbal)?

Yet you still advocate for it?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520207#Comment_122520207

I haven't seen non-contact harassment referred to as 'sexual assault' other than by yourself and that other poster.

Nobody's being imported here.

And I see no evidence whatsoever that changes in asylum policy would positively impact crime rates. I would actually suspect that moving towards a 'harder' approach, which might see people living undocumented or in greater poverty, would in fact lead to increases in crime.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520257#Comment_122520257

Ok, I will "scale it back" to simply sexual harrassment.

Do you think that allowing thousands of undocumented men from cultures you agree would likely increase the amount of sexual harrassment claims from our citizens is a good or a bad thing?

Lotus Flower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520126#Comment_122520126

I thought, according to you, that part of the attraction of here is that it’s an English speaking country and ‘the second highest GDP in the world’ to increase their chances of getting a job but now you’re suggesting that some can’t speak basic English

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520300#Comment_122520300

The report I saw referring to fare-dodging as 'fraud' was from Germany I think.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520297#Comment_122520297

If the alternative is pushing people towards living undocumented or in greater poverty, where they might commit more serious crimes, I think it's the best option.

I think this kind of verbal harassment, which I don't think we should tolerate at all, is necessarily even a criminal offence in Ireland.

As many of the anti-immigration 'activists' are aware we're quite lax here on a lot of appalling behavior here. A lot of behaviors only meet our criminal definitions if repeated between individuals. This includes sexual remarks but also recording people coming and going to work, making vague suggestions as to knowing where people live, showing up outside their houses with balaclavas etc.

I don't think we should tolerate any of it to be honest.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520358#Comment_122520358

Well at least you are consistent.

I think it's a disgusting attitude to have but you are entitled to it.

You seem to care more about undocumented asylum seekers than you do about the native population.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520375#Comment_122520375

I think it's in all of our interests that people coming here are treated with respect, fairness and dignity.

I think it's especially true that people who will be living here in the longer term are given every fair chance to live a happy and productive life. Nobody should be striving for a 'two-tier' society.

Yvonne007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520387#Comment_122520387

If someone is squatting by the side of a canal and has travelled through many other safe countries since they "fled from persecution" or someone intentionally destroys their documentation when they arrive in Ireland to hide their identity, I do not respect them.

If someone comes to Ireland and sexually harrassess natives because of their cultural background, I do not respect them.

mistersifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519560#Comment_122519560

It's shocking yet unsurprising. And it will get worse.

The residents of these sites are often segregated according to nationality to reduce the risk of conflicts, yet we're expected to accept that they will integrate well into wider society.

The main thing to remember is that you're a racist if you have a problem with dangerous government-sanctioned shanty towns being put up overnight on your doorstep 😂

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520433#Comment_122520433

I don't think we should tolerate verbal sexual harassment regardless of the cultural background of the offender.

I think our harassment laws in general are not fit for purpose. Whether the victim is a woman minding her business walking down the street, a worker going to their job, or an asylum seeking trying to live peacefully in what would constitute a home, there are instances where people simply aren't protected as they should be.

As for 'safe' countries, there's really no such thing. The concept exists to determine some countries as generally safer than others. It all depends on the circumstances. For example, if I was walking around a UDA in Belfast area wrapped in a tri-colour shouting 'Coolock says no' I'd be quite safe. If I were to shout 'refugees are welcome' it would be a different story.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520454#Comment_122520454

As for 'safe' countries, there's really no such thing

That says it all.

whatever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122519708#Comment_122519708

You yourself shared a UN report that showed the prevalence of rape, murder and violence committed by refugees was exponentially higher.

star61

So we should make allowances for the behaviour of those from other cultural backgrounds. That verbal sexual harassment is .. …..not even a criminal offence. The Irish are some of the worst types of people at home & abroad and there should be no allowances made for their cultural background. I’m not feeling much love on here for The Irish.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520876#Comment_122520876

That's how the demoralising self hatred promoted by the government and their media lackies works.

Ozvaldo

The country is unsettled and villages throughout Ireland have these undocumented migrants hanging around the streets all day causing locals stress.

Dublin city is a calamity

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122520783#Comment_122520783

Shouldn't be coming here at that rate so

whatever.

Sweden changing policy entirely because of the consequences of asylum seekers

"But also, more broadly, it’s commonly accepted that it’s good to be very restrictive and minimise asylum seeker applications in Sweden. All the major political parties have said that for almost 10 years.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/19/sweden-negative-net-immigration-figure-record-low-asylum-application-global-displacement