Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

H_Lime

Ah yes, I'm neuro diverse too, I'm native Irish American, by that I mean I'm like Irish Irish like the Indians (bows n arrows) are American. Hang on, maybe I'm first people's indigenous aboriginal Irish maybe...? Maybe if I can trace my ancestors back to fox rock I can kick someone out of their gaf there and call it mine. Maybe I can get a grant for being, well, very Irish? More Irish than most?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

The *Anti Illegal immigration brigade - which is a genuine mistake I am sure MegamanBoo as we all know(at this stage of the thread) that those are vastly different right?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

Horrifying statistics.

There's a strong case for helping improve the health systems in all of those in Nigeria/ Somalia and not just those that can come to Ireland.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122557486#Comment_122557486

I was pedantic about the use of “Irish first” so will to be fair concede the use of the word “shipped in” should be changed to “allowed in due to a questionable immigration policy”.

The story I mentioned that happened 10 years ago, I did see a coach of what looked like immigrants being driven somewhere , perhaps they were being rehoused or something. Since it’s a personal observation, we can discard it as fact and take it just as a influence for my sentiments.

But the same principle applies, people coming into the country when there are already significant issues that are not being addressed, including in adequate infrastructure to accommodate from housing , medical , educational perspective.

I was thinking about your comments on why people want to come to Ireland , I understand why ireland is relatively more appealing for numerous reasons. But the problem I have with this thinking is the implication behind it that refusing to concede on compassion grounds by default makes you not empathetic.

Some people have the energy, the finance and luxury of being more empathetic than others. Here’s a list of things I manage on a day or day or yearly basis:

• in adequate supports for children with disabilities, the one educate together school locally that suits my children is still trying to get approval to build permanent buildings
• Inadequate medical support available to the point where I’ve spent thousands over decades to finally get to a point where I’m not suicidal and have multiple diagnosis that only happened because I pushed for answers and paid through the arm for it
• I’ve to take injections every few weeks for chronic migraines , tablets everyday for multiple conditions and regular checked that the cancer hasn’t progressed (I’m very lucky it’s only Gleason 3+3)
• housing estate that floods regularly
• Council solution didn’t fix it and created a massive hazard for children
• People can’t sell their houses because the council won’t take over the estate which the rogue builder left in trouble
• A sick resident recently asked me to help him with this cause he wants to move closer to his family , so I’m gonna fight in his behalf with the council to get this sorted
• My own children may struggle to get a house when they are older
• I do worry about how the government are managing our borders , have a family member who can’t get a house but see certain foreign residents move into my estate with very little means (one fixes cars in front garden)
• I work for myself that has its own stresses I won’t post here
• Consistent rumours of yeh council potentially zoning land or using a derelict hotel to house aload of refugees when we are already short on amenities and infrastructure for locals

These are other things but these are the ones off the top of my head. I don’t see its reasonable to kind of brush it aside with the “well at least you aren’t starving in Somalia “ kind of attitude.

Am I an unempathetic person or lacking in compassion because I find it hard to then think “you know what, it’s no so bad, I could be in a war zone?”. I do think of how horrible that must be, I really do, but I also look at the cost to me , my children and others when there is a dysfunctional strategy in how the government is doing this.

A person , one person, only has so much empathy or compassion or energy that they can give at any one time. A person with less resources , less health/energy and more variables to manage , making their lives difficult will struggle to add more load to it.

A good therapist once helped guide me to a point where I wasn’t always taking on the concerns of everybody around me because it was killing me. Putting on the proverbial life jacket or oxygen mask on yourself first is a good metaphor for what I have had to learn for my own good.

On a broader level, the question I ask you is what is enough ? If I researched more, could I find more deserving people who we should let in? What about the people we refuse? Why exactly should we care ? (Kind of tongue in cheek question but as a society it needs to be asked).

There is more we could all do but there is equally more that could be done to run the country better. Why can’t we have adequately run country and take people in ? When our government can’t look after our own population, why should people accept when they say it’s right to allow in more people ?

There’s so many variables that really cant be summarised down to “you have it so much better then them”. I could easily say “since you don’t know what’s happened in my life or how each day is a struggle, how can you say that with any authority?”.

Having more money/resources is a privelage, but individually there is only so much responsibility and influence most of us can have in this world. If I can be healthy enough to be able to support my children in a manner where they grow up to be happy and contribute themselves; I’ve done a good job. If I can try and help others , treating them equally and not hurt another , then I’ve done an ok job.

But I can’t save the world. I can only try and leave some positive footprints , more then negative ones, which requires compromising on some things and accepting mistakes and defective elements of who I am. So , if I feel progressively more negative towards people being allowed it, it’s not that I’m not empathetic to their cause. I’m concerned that it’s becoming a problem on multiple fronts, affecting my family and potentially affect the rise of extremist ideology. This is partially because of how it’s been handled or communicated.

This is why I will probably try and drop out of these sort of discussions. I’ve too much to say because I find most topics are far more complex than the headline summary points. And people think I’m preaching , when I just want to articulate what I’m thinking , but seem to do it in a way that people find annoying!!

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558191#Comment_122558191

I wouldn't see it as a compassionate approach, more so one of dealing with the practical realities of people coming to live here.

You say people are being 'let in due to a questionable immigration policy', but at least in terms of IPAs, the alternative, to me and I suspect many of the other people who reject the anti-immigration rhetoric and politics, is simply far worse.

What would we do in place of our current system, have people living undocumented? What does it do for people currently struggling for services if we have substantial numbers of people working undocumented, not paying taxes and working less than minimum wage? If we did have people living undocumented, should their children be able to access schools and access services?

I do think there are things we could try to bring down overall immigration numbers in light of our housing and health crisis, but I simply don't think these will work as intended for people who are most desperate to come here.

Gusser09

That Refugee council of Ireland are some shower of lunatics. Wanting illegal migrants to be able to come forward under and amnesty to try and legalise their status. So what happens if they are refused residency or citizenship? Do they just get to head off back to their apartment of house with nothing else said? All of these NGOs should be monitored more closely and an eye kept of their agendas and who funds them.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558899#Comment_122558899

These refugee organisations must be the most dangerous organisations in Ireland. They're essentially saying they don't want any border control, just let anyone come in and start handing out citizenship willy-nilly.

https://www.mrci.ie/funders/

Look who's backing them, foreign NGO's and other Irish state bodies. Insanity!

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559093#Comment_122559093

It's terrible and scary to say that we really need a right wing alternative to vote for at the moment. We really need a party who will just come out and say that they will end this insanity if voted.

That political view point hasn't really worked in other countries historically and has led to serious issues but what is the alternative? That's where government policy and NGO influence has left us.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559093#Comment_122559093

All pigs at the trough, gouging to excess at the expense of regular joe soaps.

Latest one I heard today on the indoctrination of our society and how the masses are being manipulated. 5th class pupils being given a book to read, all about a boy who flees war to start a new life in Europe, and his journey of hope and survival. Although its an anecdote so probably will be brushed aside as irrelevant.

Gusser09

If your white and Irish and have concerns about immigration you are the problem. And are also a racist.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558255#Comment_122558255

I drop into this thread and I see you’re still saying the same, there’s no point in trying to limit asylum seekers and we just have to accept this and find accommodation for them somewhere forever

Kermit.de.frog

Changes coming in Germany

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1829156997738172794

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559743#Comment_122559743

All the countries that spearheaded this (Germany, Sweden) are realising it's a disaster and are trying to stop it now but we are ploughing ahead like feckless idiots, cheered on by naive fools, state sponsored media and people profiting from it.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559743#Comment_122559743

Yay! More new arrivials fleeing "persecution" to the land of freebies to look forward to.

Kermit.de.frog

More info on the German plans. Financial benefits to be removed for asylum seekers already registered in another EU country (this alone would solve a chunk of our problem overnight if we did it) and faster deportations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/29/germany-weapons-asylum-solingen-stabbing

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559938#Comment_122559938

We will probably classify Germany as an unsafe country now and so will not be able to return asylum seekers there. Not that we would do that anyway.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122559938#Comment_122559938

Never would happen here, not a chance.

Kermit.de.frog

Scholz confirming refugees will be denied benefits in Germany if they come through another EU country. Can open, worms everywhere.

The government here will struggle to justify not doing the same on reputational ground or obligations when the Germans are doing it.

Expect others to follow.

baldbear

<Mod Snip> - This matter is currently before the courts

aziz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122560441#Comment_122560441

Where’s their humanity,man

ShamNNspace

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122560552#Comment_122560552

Mahauleen might have mentioned it at the informal foreign ministers meeting today

Jeff2

Maybe they will learn have to be civilised in OUR country.

https://twitter.com/RadioGenoa/status/1829207564858622241?t=D_nOCKbewzfIlxMCNL2-Fg&s=19

smurf492

Sorry tried to reply to jeff2 video post. This happened in Galway .. gangs of teens from both sides of the city beating on each other for years now… nothing to do with the current migrant situation

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122555575#Comment_122555575

The figures appear to have been updated yesterday, August 29th, to be fair.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122560441#Comment_122560441

We would always be forced to measures that the government has been putting off eventually.

All the things the lefties on here cry about being impossible or too hard can actually be done when the default reaction taken by Irish government of kicking the can down the road is no longer an option.

I mean who knew Germany could make decisions on immigration outside the EU? Should they not be thinking about their neighbours 🙄

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122561115#Comment_122561115

Sorry for the long post here but I think its important to walk through this topic.

Let's consider these German measures, advocated in the run-up to an election (naturally), which do not actually really say that migrants will be "denied" benefits. The proposed measures say, as paraphrased by Scholz, that migrants coming through another EU country will only get "bed, bread and soup". Now, even if we assume that this is what will actually transpire — they are not talking about the full denial of benefits, because they are still offering the most fundamental benefits of all, which are accommodation and food. Many asylum seekers will gladly accept that and will harbour hope of being permitted to move out into German society eventually

No doubt, you will say "ah yes, but by offering less benefits than another EU country, the migrants will go to those EU countries offering more benefits". Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But again, let's assume it does work out that only giving these minimal fundamental benefits will duly encourage asylum seekers to f**k off elsewhere. Those other countries, like Ireland, might then be forced to do the same.

Then what?

Once loads of European countries roll out these measures in a constant race to lower the aid and benefits offered, the migrants will come just as before. Because, ultimately, many asylum seekers and migrants are coming from countries where there is abject poverty, perhaps violence and other dangers, and an overall hopelessness as regards their prospects in life. Somehow, we are expected to believe that they will baulk in horror at the terrifying prospect of being given food and shelter in a safe, secure, developed country where even if there is a tiny chance they will get the opportunity to join general society there, they will take it because ultimately they have nothing to lose by trying. This is the fundamental issue which Europe faces and is the reason "go it alone — our country first" policies have limited sustainability.

But when faced with this logic — which I have yet to see challenged by anyone on here aside from "LeFtiEs JuSt SaY iT's aLL tOo HaRd wah wah wah" — people still then go on to blast, pick holes and find every conceivable fault with things like the EU Migration and Asylum Pact when at the very least it's another step in what will be a perpetual need for Europe to work together, assist eachother and share burdens. Complexity and nuance are rejected, and people retreat back into their arrogant little bubble where they have the easy answers that would fix everything if everyone else was as smart as them and just put their own country first.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122561675#Comment_122561675

I do not really see the point of this post. We get your stance at this stage - we are all wrong because we do not think things through fully. You are seemingly trying to claim some sort of moral or intellectual/logical superiority which exists only in your head!

"Complexity and nuance are rejected, and people retreat back into their arrogant little bubble where they have the easy answers that would fix everything if everyone else was as smart as them and just put their own country first."

You talk about arrogant little bubbles and throw out lines like that. Which basically seems to be your modus operandi. You have offered little to this thread/topic except to covertly imply everyone is stupid/illogical.

"pick holes and find every conceivable fault with things like the EU Migration and Asylum Pact"

How is this any different to what you and others do with every suggestion on here - weather they be good or bad?

The EU Migration pact may work (most likely no where near the extent required), or it may not. As you asked - Then what?

You can continue to preach to us about your nuances and logic and our lack there of but a line will have to be drawn in the sand eventually weather you like it or not.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122561675#Comment_122561675

I think Germany and Canada are the start of the pennies dropping.

Most people without vested interests or agendas realise infinite numbers of AS from the 3rd world does not go into finite infrastructure/resources in the first world.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122561675#Comment_122561675

How much does it cost to travel from sub Saharan Africa to Ireland?

https://www.worlddata.info/africa/somalia/index.php

World Bank says average yearly income is $610.

This suggests that many coming to Europe are not the very poor but rather those who can afford to come. Those that afford to come might be less likely to come if they are not given an allowance and their lives made miserable. There have been several recent videos here of people unhappy to be in the dundrum hotel, <snip>. How might they respond if benefits were removed.

Your assertions seem bonkers given the literature around the topic, e g.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/secret-department-of-justice-paper-urged-swift-renewal-of-deportations/a725249983.html

I get you want to signal your virtue and preach to the wrong thinkers but at least some allowance for the truth would help your case IMHO.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562225#Comment_122562225

”there seems to be an expectation they will be housed in their own accommodation.”

I wonder was that anything to do with a certain set of social media posts and publishing a text of some sort? (A few posters here would have you believe it doesn’t).