Government's secret plan to block repayment of illegal nursing home charges

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223491#Comment_120223491

It is simple logic, it is the basis for which you are calling for refunds to be made. If people with medical card have a right to full cost reimbursement for private treatment in private nursing homes, there is absolutely no legal reason to deny them full cost reimbursement for private treatment in private hospitals. There is no difference in law.

Then you don't even know the facts, you claim that the legal advice is "that governments had a liability for some private patients in public nursing homes", yet the Attorney General disagrees with you.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224199#Comment_120224199

No its a simple fact of the demographics of our aging population, currently we have a worker to retiree ratio of 4:1 by 2040 it will be around 2:1. It will be impossible to afford to pay social welfare at current rates without a MASSIVE tax increase for younger workers.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/younger-workers-face-paying-an-extra-2500-in-taxes-so-older-people-can-still-retire-at-66-years-of-age-41949150.html

Voting for SF wont magically create more young people to fill in the worker vs retiree ratio gap. The system needs a massive overhaul and rethink but no politician and especially the likes of SF are willing to even start discussing this, they are in fact considering raiding peoples private pensions to pay for all their pie in the sky nonsense making people have to rely even more on the state pension. In fact FG are the only ones suggesting we start looking at the state pension time bomb that's coming down the tracks.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224551#Comment_120224551

This pension timebomb has been known for at least twenty years.

In that time FFG have bailed out bondholders and Bertie bought how many elections? Often with extremely generous pensions for current public servants. That's not the mention all the other waste in that time.

And you're telling me FFG are the only one's doing something about this!

AFAIK you were quite wrong earlier to say that todays PRSI pays for tomorrows welfare. Some amount of PRSI is put towards long term pension commitments. We just haven't been doing enough of it.

Two great economic booms in the last twenty and f$$k all to show for it. That's the FFG way.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224270#Comment_120224270

I'll ignore you're 'simple logic' claims because unless you've anything to back it up, it's simply comparing apples to oranges.

As for the AG's advise, although I haven't read the full report, no-where in any of the coverage did he deal with the actual liability. He's finding was that the governments legal strategy for avoiding any liability was valid.

Which is where people have taken issue. It's the type of strategy one would expect from a corporation or private business, not from the state, who are supposed to represent the public interest, not develop strategies to avoid it.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224760#Comment_120224760

The strategic pension reserve fund has been raided for every sudden crisis since it was setup including the financial crisis and Covid with the support of every other party in the dail, its nowhere close to where it needs to be and even if it was would not be a solution to a 2:1 worker to retiree ratio.

This is completely off topic and I have voted for FG but am not a "FG Voter" however its a significant point that FG are the only ones talking about it in a practical sense by suggesting raising the retirement age. Every other party is opposed to that but refuses to offer other solutions. This is a massive issue for me as regards who I give my vote to and if another party were to offer a more practical and generationally fairer solution id vote for them in a heartbeat.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224760#Comment_120224760

100%.

They have been talking about the pension timebomb for decades but FFG have squandered/wasted our taxes throughout that period. For example, nobody even knows how much the long awaited Children's hospital will be. The waste and corruption in public finances has been astronomical and it will come back to haunt us. But hey let's give the senior bank execs their well deserved big bonuses again Paschal.

Everytime they create a rainy day fund, they need to raid it for some self inflicted reason.

You can be damn sure that FG TDs will ensure their families aren't impacted by the looming pension crisis.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224864#Comment_120224864

The truth is the looming pension crises is not really an issue that the government need worry about. They are somehow getting away with dodging refunding the nursing home charges. If we end up with large numbers of elderly living in extreme poverty they can just say for the sake of the public purse the elderly will have to be sacrificed.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224809#Comment_120224809

I'm not aware of other parties supporting raiding the pension reserve fund for the financial crisis. But if they did, we'd have to ask why was the crisis so severe? Bertie's buying elections, or bailing out bond holders?

And even in the midst of that financial crisis FFG were still able to oversee all that money flowing to Irish Water, Rehab Execs, Siteserv etc. Is that what they raided the pension fund for?

I'm as concerned as you are about growing old in this country but FFG are not the answer.

It terrifies me to see how afraid old people are now about having to go to A and E. FFG will never fix that. Ever. All they can do is spin and throw money at privatization. That's never going to help with A and E.

And how do you think their housing policy is generationally fair? Without a change of government and approach there's no way the majority of the next generation will own houses.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224864#Comment_120224864

The childrens hospital is a drop in the ocean compared to the pension timebomb, for the 2022 budget it was nearly 9 billion, by 2040 it could easily be close to 20 billion. But again that isn't the real problem its that we will have a ratio of 2:1 workers vs retirees so we will not be bringing in enough income tax to afford to pay 20 billion in pensions and then fund the health service, housing, education etc etc at the levels we would expect or require.

The real solution is to have stopped making it more and more expensive to have children 10-15 years ago but now its too late to solve the problem like that. We do need to do that so our birth rate can catch up but until that happens we need to look at real solutions instead of historical whataboutery so many seem to be obsessed with engaging in. Yes maybe FF and FG caused it but nobody else ie SF is even willing to talk about fixing it.

This will be the last I post on this topic or thread as its way off topic and as usual when the pension timebomb gets discussed anywhere outside of the politicis forum it just is hit with overly simplistic ignorant whataboutery.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224941#Comment_120224941

Ffg have a plan.

Is there a less assuring statement?

In fact they probably don't even have one. I wouldn't be surprised if their Spin machine just told them this is a great topic to take attention away from health and housing.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224760#Comment_120224760

You are now claiming that "some amount of PRSI pays for tomorrows welfare". Do you have a link to back up this nonsensical statement?

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-03-31/312/

As is clear from the Minister's reply in the Dail, the FACT is that the social insurance fund is running a deficit i.e. it spends more than it takes in in 2022. How can a fund that is running a deficit in the current year be paying for tomorrow's welfare?

I think you don't have a clue about any of this, but I am willing to read any response that you have.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120225650#Comment_120225650

https://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/lifecycle/state_pensions/

Well you've misquoted me for a start. I was talking about future pensions and not tomorrows welfare.

Our entitlement to pensions are based on social insurance contributions. I think you might be correct that it comes from a pension fund and not directly from prsi.

I find that interesting but not really relevant.

The original point being that our contributions today go towards future pensions, and future pensions are not necessarily tied to the working/retired ratio at that time.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120225781#Comment_120225781

PRSI is a current account, the only savings for future pensions would be individuals with private pensions and vehicles like the strategic pension reserve fund. The PRSI you pay as a tax is used to fund existing pensions and welfare costs, hence why it's called a ticking time bomb (at some point either taxes go up a lot, retirement age goes up or pensions and welfare come down, there is not another option but nor is there a political party who will publicly utter a strategy here).

TLDR: €0 of your PRSI payments will pay for your pension.

Cluedo Monopoly

The TDs know there are votes at stake here.

'Shame The Devil' -- Coalition TDs Round On Stephen Donnelly Over Nursing Homes Ploy (extra.ie)

Coalition backbenchers broke ranks in the Dáil on Thursday as they sharply criticised a secret legal strategy that served to 'protect a few within Government'.

Three Government TDs - Fergus O'Dowd, John McGuinness and Joe Flaherty - told Health Minister Stephen Donnelly that the Government was 'wrong' and 'lacked empathy' and that he was defending the 'indefensible'.

Coalition backbenchers broke ranks in the Dáil on Thursday as they sharply criticised a secret legal strategy that served to 'protect a few within Government'.

Three Government TDs - Fergus O'Dowd, John McGuinness and Joe Flaherty - told Health Minister Stephen Donnelly that the Government was 'wrong' and 'lacked empathy' and that he was defending the 'indefensible'.

A similar strategy was used by the State in similar cases where at least 12,000 people were denied disability payments through regulations deemed to be unconstitutional.

Fianna Fáil TD John McGuinness told his party colleague Mr Donnelly that he needed to tell the truth about his department's legal tactics.

'It is not good politics, Minister, to defend the indefensible. Tell the truth. Shame the devil,' he said.

Mr McGuinness, TD for Carlow- Kilkenny, said the State was acting in a way that suggests it would defend itself at all costs, whether it was right or wrong.

'It doesn't shock me any more, because I've seen this tactic in play in many different Government departments,' he said.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224551#Comment_120224551

Certainly we need to rethink our system.

Currently we import workers that we need to house, and provide health, transport and other services to. Also educate their children. All of this puts pressure on an already stressed system.

A fair number of these immigrants work for multinationals that pay little tax here; many of these services could be provided better in their home countries, eg online services to countries across Europe. If the MNCs opened branch offices in all those countries, they could employ people in their homelands, strengthening those economies both directly and indirectly with the downstream employment, and at the same time taking some pressure off our services and providing a bit of breathing space.

One problem with the idea of constant growth is the constant pressure it places on services. Our population has grown by over 75% since 1950, while Germany's has grown by maybe 15% or so, allowing for a higher quality of life all around, and making it easier to plan for and provide services. However, our governments (who initially encouraged MNCs to provide employment at home) have forgotten that their job is to look after Ireland - i.e. our people (and not just that abstract thing "the economy" or the MNCs based here) and many of our pols seem to think that they are actually elected to do the bidding of the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230568#Comment_120230568

Don't forget its backbenchers and not ministers so please use your vote if a Government TD is your constituency, and keep them out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230568#Comment_120230568

If you are relying on John McGuiness and Fergus O'Dowd as the Great Saviours to bring the government down, the level of desperation is funny. They were men who promoted well beyond their ability and it has shown many times.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234982#Comment_120234982

Who in FFG wasn't promoted beyond their ability?

Meehole, Leo, O'Brien, Donnelly, they're up to the job are they?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234982#Comment_120234982

At least McGuinness had the integrity to defend Sgt Maurice McCabe when senior members of the Gardai were corruptly trying to crucify him while our political leaders (e.g. Enda) looked on. McGuinness was one of the few brave enough to show how state entities (including Tusla) were trying to destroy a very honest and good man. Very dodgy politics from the so-called law and order party. Shameful. Zero accountability on that smear campaign too. That mask has truly slipped.

MegamanBoo

Reading that 'Shame the devil' article posted earlier again and it's amazing reading the AGs quotes.

Putting out that kind of political spin masquerading as legal opinion is quite shocking.

I don't know if it's a new low for the position, but it's clear there's a new to revamp the role.

By all means the government of the day should have a legal advisor, but the public also needs an authoritative legal interpreter too.

Clearly when the role was developed nobody envisioned a government would act in such a low, underhanded way against the public interest.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237670#Comment_120237670

The AG should be an advisor for the people too and he or she should be appointed by one of the Dail committees. That way it won't be a political appointment.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237670#Comment_120237670

Of all the crazy ideas being put around at the moment, the one that the public needs an authoritative legal interpreter is one of the nuttiest.

It is clear that some people just don't like the legal advice and are going around making up reasons to ignore it.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239022#Comment_120239022

Really because it looks to be inline with what FFG proposed as part of their 'New Politics'?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239047#Comment_120239047

So? It is a completely nutty idea.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239052#Comment_120239052

I just thought you agreed with everything FFG, or is it that they didn't implement it?

In this case I believe the public wanted to know the strength of people entitlement to nursing home and disability refunds.

The AG didn't provide that, only verified the governments strategy to avoid paying.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239075#Comment_120239075

Well, you are obviously wrong in your interpretation. I don't agree with everything that either FF or FG or the Greens say and do. That is a misunderstanding on your part.

TipsyMcStagge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230568#Comment_120230568

The backbenchers are getting jittery.

AMazing how our well-heeled mandarins fcuk their fellow citizens over while playing musical chairs with each other and awarding each other unjustified pay increases.

How many of these pric*s will be heading out to foreign shores with the politicians for Paddy's Day?

I was on a webinar last week with my peers and senior civil servants and the disconnect from reality in the department was quite staggering. The air breathed by these civil servants is rarefied or else the b*stards are inoculated with something the moment they join the service.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239233#Comment_120239233

Really? All you seem to do on here is defend FFG. When have you actually not agreed with them?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245696#Comment_120245696

I don't think their actions on climate change have gone far enough. I would never have reduced excise duty on diesel in response to the cost-of-living crisis. I think they should never have put in place such a generous redress scheme for mica. An opportunity to curb bungalow blight in Donegal has been lost. Those are just two examples of recent enough measures, but my issues with them go back further. However, they have managed Covid brilliantly, controlled the government finances well and given the people of Ireland one of the highest standards of living in the world. Just look to the North to see what a bad government can do.

The biggest problem is the abysmal quality of the opposition parties. PBP are complete nutters. Social Democrats will just wring their hands and cry all the time, while Labour don't know what they are, swinging from Alan Kelly to Ivana Bacik. As for the main opposition party, let's just say that electing that bunch of idiots, thugs and criminals to run the country would make this country a far worse place to live.

Small things will improve what the government is doing, even brain transplants could fail to fix the Shinners' offerings.