If the government called a general election tonight

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242039#Comment_120242039

We’ve never had a realistic scenario before of the main party in government having zero experience in government. Even in 2011, we had a few FG and Lab heads who had some experience from the 90s. It doesn’t bode well.

ArmaniJeanss

@AndrewJRenko

I'd be inclined to agree that it's better if the incoming government has some members who have served in a prior regime. That way change will be gradual and hopefully well-considered, with the 'rookies' taking advice from the old hands.

However, it's probably not that unusual in politics for there to be a complete change and it isn't always a bad thing. Tony Blairs 1997 government (after 18 years of Conservative rule) was effectively a new broom with minimal input from those who'd served under Wilson/Callaghan. And it would be regarded as a successful government. In France the rise of Macron was basically with a new party, seems to have done fine. Doubtless there's some bad examples as well (Syriza in Greece).

I guess the biggest problem would be if the new government (and clearly in an Irish context we are talking Sinn Fein) sees some narrow victory as a mandate to change the entire direction of the country overnight.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242110#Comment_120242110

Thanks for your reply and outlining your position.

I was referring to Irish politics and did not mention US or EU.

I remain of the opinion that we have never had a right wing government.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242160#Comment_120242160

We are part of the EU. Our politics is EU politics.

Parties don’t have to be extremist nutters to be right wing or left wing. They can be moderate and one or the other.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242225#Comment_120242225

Yes we are members of the EU but this thread is about our local politics.

I agree that there are varying levels of adherence to either cause.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242171#Comment_120242171

He is correct.

FG is a mainstream European Centre Right Christian Democrat party. FF is a fairly conservative (Free Market) Liberal party.

The Conservatives in the U.K. may once have overlapped the more right wing elements of the Christian Democrats but those days are long gone. They most definitely aren’t Centre Right nowadays.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242234#Comment_120242234

It has nothing to do with “adherence to either cause”. The issue is how the political parties here fit in EU political terms.

We know how they fit because they chose which EU Political parties they (continue to) adhere to and vote with at EU level. It isn’t a case that, let’s say, FG are a centre right party at home but are members of, and vote with, the centre left at EU level. That would be bizarre were it the case.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240963#Comment_120240963

Which candidate?

Pretty sure they are as good as dissolved.

They have provided no statements of accounts since 2019.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242110#Comment_120242110

FF have moved sharply left both economically and socially since Michael Martin took over in 2011

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242237#Comment_120242237

Of course the Torys are centre right, what else would you classify them as?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242110#Comment_120242110

FF are anything but right wing. They are center left. FG are historically center to center right, but are far from right wing. We havent had a right wing party since the PDs.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244249#Comment_120244249

The Conservatives have basically been taken over by their “Militant Tendency” and are characterised as “BluKIP” by some. That’s a fairly accurate tag in many ways as they have been trying to out-UKIP UKIP for many years.

That puts them in Far Right territory as they are now more extreme than many of the Far Right parties in the EU, many of whom have abandoned their overt hostility to the EU, particularly since Brexit has turned out to be a complete failure.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244312#Comment_120244312

That’s a fairly silly claim given how the two parties self-identify and how they vote both at EU level and at home.

FF now belong to the same EU level political party that the PDs did - the Renew Europe (formerly the ALDE or ELDR) party.

That’s the classic European Liberal group - ie pro Free Market Liberal economics. That’s not centre left.

Centre left is the mainstream European Social Democrat/Socialist parties - and, yes, our own Labour Party is, and was, very much a mainstream member of that grouping.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244406#Comment_120244406

EU coalitions do not a definition make.

You have to understand what Left and Right wing are. Could you realistically say that any major party in Ireland is closer to capitalism than socialism?

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244344#Comment_120244344

Horse manure , nothing far right about them

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244344#Comment_120244344

What makes them far right?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242118#Comment_120242118

Can you explain why this is a problem?

And I don't mean for you to repeat that they have no experience in government, I mean can you explain what are the practical problems that you see arising out of their lack of experience (and for the moment, I'll ignore the fact that they have run government departments in the North, that discussion is for another place.)

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242171#Comment_120242171

FF was centre-left back in the 1930s when they set about building thousands upon thousands of houses for working class people. They gradually moved rightwards, first under Seán Lemass and have continued to do so ever since. Now they are indistinguishable from FG.

FG started as an avowedly rightwing party - I'm sure you have seen the photos of Blueshirts making the fascist salute. When fascism fell out of favour after WW II, they moved away from that - in public at least. But the Cosgrave, Donegan, Cooney and O'Brien cabal was a highly authoritarian rightwing government, albeit with some notes of socialism from one or two of the Labour ministers. In public, Garret the gobsh.te was keen on social justice, but it was never more than window dressing, no-one in their right minds would deny that Bruton was rightwing, and certainly (despite a window dressing of social change) there is not a single sensible person in the country who would deny that Varadkar and his coterie would happily fit into the English Tory party.

So, rightwing. Not Libertarian rightwing, not extreme rightwing, just plain old run of the mill rightwing.

Loafing Oaf

I dont see any discernable difference between FF or FG on housing, immigration. social welfare, crime etc...and all their policies are distincly left wing and liberal.

In European terms, FG is rightwing, FF is centre-right and moving further right every day.

FF have moved sharply left both economically and socially since Michael Martin took over in 2011

FG is a mainstream European Centre Right Christian Democrat party. FF is a fairly conservative (Free Market) Liberal party.

FF are anything but right wing. They are center left. 

...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245051#Comment_120245051

The people who have run Government departments in the North won't the people trying to run Government departments in Dublin.

It's a problem because putting a load of people with no actual experience of doing a job into the one organisation at one time isn't a great idea. Just imagine if the top layer of your organisation disappeared tomorrow and was replaced by people who have no experience in doing those jobs. How do you think that would impact your organisation?

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244351#Comment_120244351

Liberal is not left wing. You seem to be trying to apply the incorrect US usage of the term.

And yes there policies are fairly similar because the two political creeds they share are close on the political spectrum.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244651#Comment_120244651

They are European level political parties and the parties in them share similar positions/ideology. They choose who they affiliate with and they do so based on how they perceive themselves.

It isn’t up to your definition of what you think left or right wing should be (but isn’t).

And both of our traditional big two parties are unquestionably closer to capitalism than socialism which is why Ireland is the way it is today (for better and for worse). Neither of them have a tradition of singing The Internationale at their annual Ard Fheis! :-)

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244848#Comment_120244848

Let’s see overt hostility to the EU (a position that most European Far Right parties have abandoned), signing and then breaking the terms of the treaty (on withdrawal) that they signed, the serious attempts to withdraw from the ECHR because human rights are an inconvenience, the willingness to send people to Rwanda (a country with a poor human rights record), overt willingness to scapegoat others (EU nationals who moved to the U.K., people who cross the Channel (despite the majority of them qualifying as bona fide refugees once the Home Office actually processes them)).

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245496#Comment_120245496

The policies you attribute to our parties are par for the course for most centre right governments, so there’s nothing “left wing” about them per se.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246880#Comment_120246880

Leninism isn’t the only kind of left , Labour aren’t Marxist but are still a party of the left, as are the Green Party and the Soc Dems

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245051#Comment_120245051

Not surprised that you are ignoring the fact that SF have run government departments in the North. Anyone who takes five minutes to look at their record up there will conclude that they are incompetent at best. You might give us an example of a SF initiative in Northern Ireland that both worked and is applicable down here. I guess I'll be waiting though.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247134#Comment_120247134

...id argue our traditional left parties are lost in the wilderness, they got themselves wrapped up in modern, more right leaning ideologies such as neoliberalism, and now they dont know what they are, who they represent, you can clearly see this with older left parties such as the labour party, the greens, well theyd be lost also, theyre simply unable to collate their own thinking and ideologies, even to try meet their own primary objectives, i.e. the environment....

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245509#Comment_120245509

My take on this is a bit different.

The people doing the actual running won't be changing - it's the people with a government programme who will change.

Each dept will get a new CEO - each department is a separate organisation after all - but the reality is that the various government departments will continue in existence, and will be run by the some people as they are today.

Fionn1952

The problem with these, 'which parties are on the left/right' discussions is that an awful lot of posters start off with the belief that their views are more centrist than they actually are, ironically it becomes more prevalent the further left or right these posters tend to actually stand.

It is fairly pointless discussion when one cohort is arguing that we've never had a right wing government and another arguing that we've only had right wing governments; by right wing both cohorts just mean, 'to the right of me'.

Nosler

I'd vote National Party.

I think a lot of their ideas are badly thought out (to put it mildly). However they are only party that seems to speak out against mass immigration. For that reason alone they deserve a vote.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259125#Comment_120259125

Would you check out the capability of your local NP candidate or just stamp a blind #1 on the ballot paper?

BoxcarWilliam99

I wouldn't vote . I have done in every election the last 28 years. I don't see the point anymore.

Varadkar in on the ,6th count now taoiseach.

OGormon - 5400 total votes now government minister

The Greens 6% of the total vote now in government

Harris on the 15th!! count now government minister -multiple departments

Michael Martin saying a government with FG is not what people want them proceeds to do just that.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259125#Comment_120259125

Is this the party you mean?

https://nationalparty.ie/ourpeople/

Anti abortion , pro death penalty.

Justin Barrett.

Need I go on?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259247#Comment_120259247

You could assess the fortunes of most people in this Country and compare them to the fortunes of almost any other first world Country, in these very difficult times and see how well we're doing.

I also find it amazing that you voted for 28 years without having a clue what system you were involved in with PRSTV.

Presumably, in the past, you didn't mind cabinet members coming from down the count in their constituencies, so long as you agreed with them.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259220#Comment_120259220

You think the NP will get any seats?

They are a protest vote party....

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259249#Comment_120259249

Their policy that I love is being anti mass immigration.

Lol, once upon a time, an irish political party putting the needs of irish people first wouldnt have been controversial....

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259125#Comment_120259125

Speak out, is it? Is that what it takes?

And what about their other policies? What about leaving the EU?

Because their immigration policies would require us to leave the European Union. And even then, Ireland has international obligations under the 1951 Refugee Convention and 1967 Refugee Protocol, both embedded UN policy. Should we bow out of the UN too?

International protection policy, asylum policy, economic migrant policy and war and climate refugee policy all need global examination and action, thats beyond question. But that'll only be successful with global cooperation and trickle down policy changes from the UN, OECD, EU, AU, ASEAN etc.

Not by a bunch of dumb f*** face donkey dick yellow pack fascists like the National Party acting unilaterally.

I mean Jesus Christ, if they were even half way convincing and had the courage of those convictions as fascists, I'd have some respect for their commitment and tenacity, but they're actually just a bunch of pathetic useless pricks. Every last one of them.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259331#Comment_120259331

Omg! You're insults have really made me rethink my support for the National Party!

We all know the National Party arent going to form the next government. However voting for them is a protest vote.

Another advantage of voting for the National Party is that it makes people like you angry.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259387#Comment_120259387

There is no such thing as a protest vote. You're either voting for them, or voting for someone else, or you're not voting at all.

I counted votes for 18 years. There was always spoiled votes, twats who wrote essays on their ballots, as if anyone cared. No one has time to read them in an 18 hour count marathon. And even if they did, its the wrong audience. The parties never get to see them.

If you vote for the NP, you vote for the NP. Its no skin off Leo Varadkar's nose, or Mary Lou's nose. Its just you, voting for them.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259312#Comment_120259312

What can I say except please reconsider.

Follow the link and see what you will be supporting if you really want to vote for them after that it's on you.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259481#Comment_120259481

You know what a spoiled vote is? Voting for FFFG and expecting anything different.

Ireland deserves better.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259555#Comment_120259555

There is nobody currently in the field that is better.

And I suspect everyone knows it. Some just continue to lie to themselves about it.

vatnikbanderite

If Bertie grew a beard and ran as Bert, he'd win....people are fickle and forgetful... and Bertie's a charmer

vatnikbanderite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259750#Comment_120259750

then for his re-election his could be outed as Bertie, but could re-frame the campaign as Bert puts the IE into Bertie ... with a load of Irish flag emojis ... seemless

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259555#Comment_120259555

Don't mind your man...Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Vote for whoever you want but first and foremost make sure the candidate is truthful and honourable.

Bobtheman

SDP. At least they acknowledge you have to raise taxes to provide better services though with the cost of living crisis that might change.

SF seem to forget we owe 220 billion

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259387#Comment_120259387

Be careful what you wish for. There have been protest candidates who got into the Dail when lots of people did as you did.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120261322#Comment_120261322

...you mean we were charged billions for the banks fcuking up!

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120259273#Comment_120259273

Iv paid out reasons why I wouldn't vote again. Your reply of "it's the system" does nothing to redeem it's obvious flaws.

Pull names out of a hat would be equal if not better. They could draw straws to see who gets go go into the hat( this would also be equal or not better)

15th count!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120262705#Comment_120262705

In fairness if you don't vote you are leaving it up to other people to decide for you.