Six Nations 2023 - Ireland v France Match Thread, Sat 11th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: RTÉ2, ITV, France2

cuttingtimber22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234388#Comment_120234388

interesting -

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/officials-for-heineken-cup-quarter-finals/

Barnes was ref.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120231115#Comment_120231115

I don’t expect crunching tackles from Sexton every time. He’s not in the team for that. What struck there was how quickly Hansen gave up on chasing Penaud. He knew he couldn’t catch him.

Podge_irl

Whether or not it should have been a red card will be answered by the citing commissioner and committee I guess.

I will be amazed if they say it wasn't.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234075#Comment_120234075

Ah yeah look, I know I'm defending Barnes here but it could easily and very possibly should have been a red, but the posts like "bullsh1t call" and "Barnes decided before the game he was never going to give a red" are way OTT when the guy clearly outlined his thought process, and the thought process is absolutely consistent with World Rugby guidelines.

It's funny though watching it back, Barnes says yellow and the face on the touch judge tells you very clearly that he'd have given a red.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234563#Comment_120234563

I would disagree that it is consistent with WR guidelines. The hit doesn't "ride up" into the face, it makes direct contact and he has no intention of wrapping his right arm either.

However, mistakes happen.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234563#Comment_120234563

Saw that same reaction at the time.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234572#Comment_120234572

Thats the strange thing. I can follow his logic that a lot of force was taken out as the hit was through the body at the same time.

However that force was through the body due to a tucked arm. And the fact that he tackled with a tucked arm shows he never intended to wrap. I expect that there's a ban coming after a citing.

Cosmo Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120233905#Comment_120233905

I'm sorry, but that is complete and utter drivel.

You're arguing that, as long as his interpretation of the laws was correct in terms of what he thought he saw had happened, even though he completely misread what had happened, he is then not to blame for failing to issue the red.

That's complete nonsense. He has a responsibility to make the correct calls based on what has actually happened in the match, not just on his own bizarre and incorrect interpretation of what has happened. If he is incapable of interpreting what has happened in the game, that makes him every bit as culpable as a ref who wrongly interprets the laws. Either way the outcome is the same - incorrect decisions are made and player welfare is significantly compromised.

He was the weak link on the pitch on Saturday by a distance - he demonstrated that he shouldn't be refereeing games at that level, in my view it's simply unsafe to allow him to continue to do so.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234572#Comment_120234572

I don't think Barnes said that it rode up?

I think Atonio did a reasonable job of wrapping tbh.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229388#Comment_120229388

He wasn't great. It was an absolutely frantic opening 40 minutes and he has had a horrible week so I can imagine that impacted him significantly but his error count was high in that opening half. Two knock ons, an intercept on their line when everyone was numbered up, a pass to the ground on their line with men outside waiting to carry and a handful of missed tackles.

His passing was a little off at critical times. I don't expect lightning from him but his pass is normally very considered and accurate. If you look at the one where Porter is held up in the opening minutes, he had to check and take the pass on his back shoulder. Herring was in position to latch on but you can see Herring actually has to pull back and jerks his head back as the pass is coming that close to him as he's going in to latch. If that pass is accurate, Porter and Herring are blowing over any defender on the line.

He got held up a couple of times but at least one of those was a rash call to go for it. Just before half time, we had penalty advantage and a full back line set outside (5 attackers vs 3 defenders) and he went for it. You could see as soon as he got hands on it, the French outside defender was shooting up as he knew they were done for numbers. We're held up and we took the 3 points. With advantage, that ball has to go out.

Murray didn't lack for effort whatsoever and I'm sure he'll be back again but he was much better against Wales and Casey was a big improvement in terms of delivery and direction. I don't think it was a huge surprise that he was taken off relatively early.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234588#Comment_120234588

The arm that made contact is tucked.

For me it comes down to the intent of the law....it's to discourage exactly the kind of tackle and outcome we saw at the weekend. If a ref is using the fact that there was simultaneous contact with the chest to mitigate down, despite there being forceful contact to the head from an upright tackle with a tucked atm, then that ref isn't aligned with what the intent of the law is, imo.

Maybe there needs to be better guidance for them, or the protocols need revisiting. Obviously, there's nuance in a lot of these situations, but this incident didn't seem like one of those borderline ones. Barnes made a bad call.

Deusexmachina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234586#Comment_120234586

Barnes is an excellent referee. These decisions are marginal and are made under immense pressure and scrutiny.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234028#Comment_120234028

Herrings head is upright at contact. There is no evidence of a whiplash effect to support the idea that the force came through the chest and brought Herrings head unto to the shoulder. Which formed part of the reasoning for the decision. Given Antonio’s considerable size it would be very difficult for his shoulder to hit anyone without his body coming into contact at roughly the same time.

phog

The reaction of the AR when Barnes said it was a YC offence is enough to show that he thought Barnes got it badly wrong.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234563#Comment_120234563

Yeah I agree. I think I even read some poster used the word 'corrupt' about Barnes. Mind blowing that anyone could think that.

I do think he made a mistake but for goodness sake who doesn't. He obviously thought he saw something different from what I viewed. He might be right but not in my eyes.

I think it was Carney running the line. The look he gave Barnes was incredulous.

OldRio

Oh dear, the Oracle has spoken. 😁

https://twitter.com/wildgoosegrill/status/1624720060152442881?s=20&t=C2Urs88-BCnx2sqFy6ginw

sydthebeat

The guy is completely irrelevant to modern rugby. His only way of him getting his name out there is to be more and more extremely contraversial.

Cosmo Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234657#Comment_120234657

Is he actually though? Or is that just something that is said, but isn't really true? He used to be terrible and he's much improved from the level he was at when he was younger, but that improvement is from a very low starting point. I think that improvement leads to him being overrated.

Yesterday, for the Herring incident, he had the TMO and the AR clearly trying to guide him to the correct decision, but he ignored them, went off in his own direction and made a complete mess of the decision as a result. That's not the mark of a good ref, a good ref would take a minute, consult with the other officials and get the call right as a result.

This isn't some split second in-play incident. He had all the time and assistance he needed, with the clock stopped, to get the call right. And he messed it up.

sydthebeat

Antonio is certain to be cited in my opinion.

We'll see then what the decision should have been.

Unquestionable red though.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234521#Comment_120234521

Crunching tackles weren't required, a simple wrap soak tackle just to halt the run up the pitch.

I thought Hansen had covered across so much that when Penaud cut across and changed the angle Hansen turned and reached out but just couldn't catch him, and Murray left it too late to cover back, he was a step away from covering the tackle in the end, but the damage was caused by an unexpected missed tackle, the whole team were caught by surprise.

Interested Observer

We'll find out early this week I'm sure if Antonio is cited. I think it was a crazy call, red all day long. Incredibly dangerous tackle quite evidently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120232902#Comment_120232902

O'Mahony plucking the ball out of the air, Vs NZ, comes to mind

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234776#Comment_120234776

Talking of irrelevant in the modern game. I give you Mr. Clive Woodward.

I find it amazing how a WC winning rugby coach can talk such utter nonsense. He was on top irrelevant form yesterday.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234810#Comment_120234810

Woodward still lives in 2003. Our own Eddie O'Sullivan is the same.

Clegg

Sounds like Atonio will be cited.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1625063230711246850?t=hVBmP8joN6ztFhowUqfIng&s=09

prawnsambo

Looks like Atonio is going to be cited alright. I'm with Former Former Former in the view that the protocols need updating. The initial contact with the upper chest a split second before the contact with the head is an area that needs to be covered. Because it's not going to absorb enough of the force to make it a truly indirect contact according to the letter of the law. Barnes missed the opportunity to look at the replay at normal speed. It actually surprised me that the TMO didn't show him a normal speed replay before he made his decision. It may well have changed his mind.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234588#Comment_120234588

He didn’t. But my understanding it that WR protocol allows for contact initiating with the chest and riding up to be mitigation. It does not allow for simultaneous contact with head and chest to he mitigation as that is still direct head contact. his right arm is tucked into his body. He would be incapable of wrapping even if he wanted to.

I’m not ascribing to any conspiracy theory but I also think Barnes got it flat wrong with pretty much no exculpatory reason. I don’t think his decision was reasonable under or consistent with WR guidelines. It was just a very bad mistake.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234886#Comment_120234886

I think you could say if there's ambiguity in the protocols, that's exculpatory. But I think there was more than enough to weigh this on the side of red rather than using any minor crack in the guidance to mitigate it down. That's not going to discourage this kind of tackle.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234886#Comment_120234886

These are the process considerations in the guidelines. The 'Direct v Indirect' consideration is where the fault lies. It doesn't allow for a consideration of the almost simultaneous contact that happened in this case. Barnes actually referred to this when discussing the degree of danger.

Buer

Two points on the high hit...

Barnes appeared insistent on officiating a free flowing game with minimal interruption. He was very much allowing things to go with some fairly hefty indiscretions at the breakdown, late hits etc. Whilst I don't think that's right, he was consistent in that. He only gave 7 penalties against each team with nearly all of them being technical offences for holding on (and the defender had to hold on for some time) or for not rolling away. There was one against Ryan for a neck roll which I believe was called by the AR.

When this was his approach for the game, I think it fed into all decisions including the high hit. He took a similar approach for the 3rd test last summer with Porter getting away with one and only 18 penalties in total.

Secondly, Barnes endured an absolutely horrific time late last year following him showing two red cards in the France vs South Africa game. He ended up with death threats and his wife being contacted and threatened. He's human. Consciously or not, that is going to be at the back of his mind when he sets foot on the pitch for any big game now. It would be near impossible to block that out entirely in such a scenario.