Six Nations 2023 - Ireland v France Match Thread, Sat 11th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: RTÉ2, ITV, France2

Deusexmachina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234785#Comment_120234785

Wayne Barnes is in excellent referee. If he wasn't, he would not get consistently selected at this level. He communicates well on the pitch. He lets the game flow. He is not afraid to make difficult decisions.

Some Ireland supporters have a very childish attitude to Barnes, accusing him of having an anti-Irish bias. Its ridiculous.

It is in his professional interest as a referee to be entirely neutral.

He judged the Antonio tackle as a yellow card offence rather than a red card. While I think he got that wrong, it is a difficult call - made in a highly charged atmosphere, in front of 50,000 people and millions on TV. Doesn't make Barnes a bad ref.

When refs get these decisions wrong, there is always the citing process.

Barnes also got the Lowe try wrong. I don't see the same level of indignation regarding this error.

Hippo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236812#Comment_120236812

He got the Lowe decision wrong because he wasn't shown all the angles. The decision on the Antonio tackle was reached following extensive evidence showing Antonio's shoulder making direct contact with Herring's chin. WB bent over backwards to find a reason not to give a red card. In view of the widespread and correct concerns over player safety it was an extraordinary decision - and surely not a difficult one given what was visible to everyone.

I'm not accusing him of anti-Irish bias. I have no idea how he reached the conclusion he did given the evidence, despite the explanation he gave in conversation with the rest of the officiating team.

prawnsambo

That stupid anti-Irish bias thing came from that article on one of the clickbaity sites about our win/loss record with Barnes as ref. It was the most egregiously stupid use of stats I've ever seen and was roundly debunked on a thread here. But it got plenty of traction elsewhere and here we are.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236791#Comment_120236791

I knew him through the mid to late 90s. And he was always a cocky bugger. Did well with the ladies. Would occasionally run into him in bars and clubs and at parties during the early 2000s and say hi, have a quick catch up. He did enjoy a drink and was very outgoing and sociable, like most good looking blokes in their 20s. I did hear quite a few stories about him from mates that played NPC and Super Rugby or worked in rugby admin or for sponsors. I heard rumours around drink, drugs and being unfaithful but I have no idea how true they were. He did leave NZ under a cloud but heard a few different reasons for that.

Deusexmachina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236864#Comment_120236864

Why would he make every effort not to give a red card (‘bend over backwards’)?

he’s a professional referee. If a sanction is warranted, he will apply it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237037#Comment_120237037

The suggestion is that he is bottling it after giving 2 red cards in the France South Africa game after which he and his wife were bombarded by abuse and murder and rape threats.

I don't believe that that would be feeding into his decision making process at all.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120236777#Comment_120236777

Embarrassingly enough, I had to google to make I didn't spell it after everyone's favourite Gaul

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120234617#Comment_120234617

Yeah, fair play to him for showing up given the week he had but he did not play well. Adding to your list above I'd say he dawdled at rucks giving France too much time to set, particularly in the red zone. And some of his own breaks were the wrong call.

Neil3030

So ROG suggested the French media had been criticizing the team a bit, and basically encouraging them to run the ball more.

It's unlikely the team designed their policy around media rumblings, but it certainly raises the question of what you should do against the Irish kicking game.

When Ireland kick the ball at you, you basically have three options:

(a) kick for touch (if permissible)

(b) kick it back deep (i.e., keep on the field)

of if France then:

 (c) do something outrageously French (run it back, chip over and catch, etc.)

(a) is problematic, because you likely give Ireland a set piece inside your half. Any slight miskick and they're already deep into your territory. In either case, Ireland will win the lineout, maul it up a bit, possibly winning a penalty and gaining points or deeper territory. Failing that, they will hit you with a first phase move, which are best avoided.

(b) This is where the Ireland backs deserve credit. When France kicked infield, Sexton would drop back and either take it himself, or immediately take the pass from whomever caught it. You now have Hansen, Lowe and Keenan all cocked and ready to chase a return kick. Even Ringrose has the gas to help here. Sexton mixed it up nicely, sometimes kicking deep and sometimes landing it in that no-mans land (French 22-halfway). Here, they can't kick for touch, and will likely face immediate pressure from the kick chase. If the receiver looks for immediate contact, the heavy forwards now have to retreat from midfield to reset. This will make them tired and grumpy. There are really no good outcomes here unless....

(c) You push the France button?

Point I'm trying to make is, the Irish kicking game is now so organized, that if one can France, one probably should France? Any aerial exchange will more often than not leave you defending a set-piece in your territory. Most other scenarios will at the very least leave your forwards retreating. And though I didn't factor it into the above, there is always the chance Ireland win back possession from a hoist.

So while my instinct coming out of the game was "France will kick a LOT more if we play them in October"

I'm actually not so sure if they will....

Interested Observer

I thought Murray played alright but there was one instance instance in the first half near the France line where for a split second the defence opened and left a gap he tried to break through, I'd say JGP probably scores but Murray was just a bit too slow. I do think he had a good game but I also think we lose out with JGP out. Also thought it was interesting he came off after ~55mins with the game very much in the balance. Odd stat but Casey made as many passes in 25 mins as Murray made in 55.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237205#Comment_120237205

Our current trio at the back are excellent kickers. Few teams would be well-advised to get involved in a kicking duel with them. If I were France, I’d keep the ball.

Ardillaun

Red cards are such a terrible responsibility. They ruin a game. It’s tough on refs to have to make that decision. On the other hand, safety has to be foremost in our minds.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237244#Comment_120237244

Thanks for Hemmingwaying my point, perfectly 🤣

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237244#Comment_120237244

Murray is also a great kicker. As the scrumhalf often drops back to play sweeper it helps out in kicking duels.

Strand1970

It was a red card all day. The tackle will be dealt with on Wednesday. Ireland won against 15 players which was a better test than against 14. Ireland are playing at a different level at the moment.

Hippo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237037#Comment_120237037

Fine. In my opinion and in the opinion of almost everyone watching he should have given a red. I have no idea at all, why he didn't, professional referee or not. Are you suggesting that professional referees are infallible?

Strand1970

Would a better solution to a red card be forced substitution and a minimum 8-10 weeks suspension, that might focus players minds and change behaviours.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237505#Comment_120237505

No. You still need to punish the team. This isnt u13 rugby where if a red card happens the player is replaced.

A red card offence isnt always 8-10 weeks so a blanket 8-10 weeks for all red cards isnt right.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237505#Comment_120237505

No because the other team, e.g. Ireland in this case, would end up having the same punishment in the game. Going conspiracy theory to the max, you could have players targeting key players of the opposition knowing their team won't suffer too much in that game.

Then play out another scenario. In the game at the weekend, kelleher gets a red later in the game. Because of the forced substitution Ireland have to drop to 14 players because we have no hooker to scrummage and need uncontested scrums (this is my memory of how it works from ire ita last year).

Punishment has to be against the team in the game. 30 minute sin bin and forced substitution, perhaps. I think 20 would be too short relative to getting 10 for things like deliberate knock ons, persistent penalties etc

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237546#Comment_120237546

If Kelleher had gotten a red later in the game Ireland would have dropped to 13. Also Ireland would have needed to take someone off to have a 3rd prop playing hooker on the field.

Actually I saw a comment on reddit during the game that a French player could have purposefully tackled Kelleher high with the intent of getting him a concussion. Ireland would have dropped to 14 (due to uncontested scrums) and France may or may not have had their player sent off.

If a red card meant the carded player could be replaced taking Kelleher out would have been seen as a smart decision.

Not sure who would have thrown into the lineout if Ireland didn't have a hooker on.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237684#Comment_120237684

Pretty sure that's not true. If you lose two hookers to injury caused by fould play you aren't penalised like that as you haven't caused the uncontested scrums

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237266#Comment_120237266

Leinster v Ulster

Munster v Northampton

Munster v Glasgow

Ireland v South Africa

Red cards don't ruin games.

pickarooney

Why would Ireland have to drop to 14? When a player is off due to no fault of his own he can be subbed and a prop can slot in to the scrum.

I think.

Strand1970

For enough against certain teams not having a player sent off for a red would invite such behaviour. Of the top tier 1 International teams i cant see many players intentionally injuring or take out the opposition out? Well maybe New Zealand 🙄

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237761#Comment_120237761

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237703#Comment_120237703

Unfortunately this is the law that applies. If a player goes off causing unconstested scrums then he can't be replaced. So Kelleher being injured would have meant 14 man Ireland on Saturday.

3.17 In a squad of 23 players or at the discretion of the match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced.

Laws of the Game | World Rugby Laws

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/3/

Individual Laws of the game of rugby union.

Water John

The Doris pass to Ringrose, they said was at 30mph and 33 feet, while being tackled.

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237809#Comment_120237809

I think it would reduce restraint and decrease player welfare. Now there is serious in game punishment to temper, for example, back rows being over the top aggression wise with the opposition out half. Late challenges, high tackles become a little bit more doable if you know your team are not going to be down a player. In my cynical opinion

randomname2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237761#Comment_120237761

It is to stop messing around when a team getting hammered in the scrums needs to solve the problem by having two injured hookers. Proving severity of injury is pretty hard

Yeah let's bring in an ice hockey goon role.

World cup final, send player on specifically to take out Sexton. Ireland lose him, they've an early sub

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237706#Comment_120237706

Ah now, not always but they do have a huge effect. I can barely be bothered watching sometimes after a red card. In ice hockey there is penalty called a game misconduct for the player himself that doesn’t reduce the number of players playing. Combining that with say a penalty try might be worth looking at.

https://www.rookieroad.com/ice-hockey/penalties/game-misconduct/

Another modification would be to have additional protection penalties for particular players as one sees in American football. The out-half would be the obvious person there.