Six Nations 2023 - Ireland v France Match Thread, Sat 11th Feb, KO 2:15PM - TV: RTÉ2, ITV, France2

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245459#Comment_120245459

Fans on here give respect to France and England (when they're losing) but there's also a surprising edge to people's feelings about Wales, often counted as a reaction to the way Welsh fans behave, but it's unappealing nevertheless. One thing about Welsh rugby, even when they aren't very good they win championships, Grand Slams and WC quarter finals. I was at the Chicago AB match and I found the NZ fans to be a joyless bunch. No craic.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245445#Comment_120245445

They won the 6 nations in 2021, with a World Cup semi and Grand Slam in 2019

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242378#Comment_120242378

Rugby is played on your feet.

Keeping the ball moving is central to how Ireland play.

Taking contact & going to ground seems an odd way to keep the ball moving. It's called the breakdown because that's exactly what it is, a breakdown.

Ball carriers is tackled & brought to ground. First team mate arrives & crouches over his prostrate colleague, legally obstructing the opposition. Next team mate arrives to 'clear out' any opposition player daring to 'jackal' the ball. After a while SH takes ball & passes it, usually after the opposition are ready, and off we go again to the next 'breakdown'.

Is this rugby ?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245685#Comment_120245685

Other teams have won the 6 nations, gotten to WC semi's and won Grand Slams. I.E. they are on a 'par' with other teams.

BoardsMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245021#Comment_120245021

Welsh? Humble? Hmmm. Scottish its hard to say, they don't win enough.

Water John

As my cockney friend says, 'there is only one group we hate more than the Scots and that's the Welsh'.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245711#Comment_120245711

Forward based play often involves pods and recycling through the breakdown. Munster used it to great effect for many years and it's still a big part of the game whether we enjoy to or not, everyone does not to one degree or another. When a front rower takes the ball off 9 and tries to break the line through sheer force and momentum they are going to drop their head to make a strip more difficult and so that when they do go to ground they have a better chance of getting the ball back cleanly and quickly, that's the case even if foot work get's them past the first tackler. You don't get running rugby against a well organised defense so this kind of play is designed to stress defenses and force them out of shape, the faster the recycle the quicker defenses lose their shape and the faster we get back play and line breaks. That part of the game is not going away.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245815#Comment_120245815

"You don't get running rugby against a well organised defence"

Playing in a manner that allows defenses enough time to reset after each breakdown has the inevitable result of more breakdowns and less running rugby.

Pace, pace, pace

Playing quickly & keeping the ball off the floor is difficult to implement, master and maintain. But it is what the best sides do, and it seems clear that AF prefers fast, skilful passers over players who 'truck it up'.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245711#Comment_120245711

It ties in defenders. Also it doesn’t always lead to breakdowns with slow recycles. Watch any of Leinsters tap and goes this season.

Ireland are purposefully creating breakdowns to tie in opponents. You'll have one Irish player come last and nearly lie on all opposition players to tie them in.

It's opening up the next 2 phases brilliantly.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245445#Comment_120245445

They won two 6N since the last world cup. We've won none.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245711#Comment_120245711

The 'while' is generally between 2 and 3 seconds, start to finish and it's central to the way Ireland keep the play moving fast and an essential part of rugby union.

A defender cannot jackal the ball if a support player is already there.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246306#Comment_120246306

And?

It doesn't warrant arrogance. We were on our day just as good as them and are now levels ahead. And that is nt anything to be arrogant about either.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246328#Comment_120246328

Agreed, and it also noticeable that Ireland reset in defence faster than most.

My point is not solely around how Ireland play, but how the game, particularly at Pro level is being played. It's more about stopping play than making play, more about risk avoidance than risk taking. That being said, risk avoidance should include avoiding sin bins and bans.

The theory that states that tying in defenders, legally or otherwise, will 'create' space for running rugby is based on negativity. Don't make errors, protect the breakdown, kick long & hope your opposition make errors. And somehow from this negativity will spring positivity.

Ex nihil omnit nihil.

If the game is to survive, spread & prosper it has to draw in players and fans.

It has to entertain, and big lads running into each other is not something that a lot of folk want to pay to watch.

It's been 100 years since rugby was 'invented' - by someone who picked up the ball and ran.

Will it last another 100 ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246770#Comment_120246770

Do you recall how we played under Schmidt?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246770#Comment_120246770

I'd say the most successful teams currently play a fast open game. Kicking and breakdowns are an important tactical and strategic part of the game but the rugby being played not is not dull or boring. Ireland, France, Italy, Scotland, New Zeland, and Australia are playing a very attractive brand of rugby at the moment, and it is based on a combination of forward power and back speed and evasion that's made possible by very high levels skill and fitness, and very high levels of control and accuracy in kicking and the breakdown. At it's best it's unpredictable, fast and very dramatic and enjoyable sport. Big lads running into each other is part of the game but it's smaller part that it's been in the past. Same goes for territorial kicking, especially with the advent of the 50/22. The biggest threat to the game is not how it's played per se, it's the head injury stuff that makes it highly dangerous.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246844#Comment_120246844

Eddie Jones has taken over Australia and is already doing interviews about kicking the ball in rugby

Expect the quality of Australia rugby to take a massive nose dive in the next 6 months with Jones running the show.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246770#Comment_120246770

Creating and exploiting space is the very essence of rugby union and that always involves drawing defenders in. Whether it be quick hands before contact, offloading, kicking into the space created or moving the ball quickly on after the tackle, the core element of the game is the same - create mismatches and overlaps and the space will open up.

Even touch rugby uses the same method of drawing and disrupting the defence to create the breach.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246770#Comment_120246770

Funny you should ask that because rugby is 200 years old this year.

However now my pedant role is done I share some of your concerns. None of us have any idea what rugby (or anything!) will be like in 2123, but in the slightly more foreseeable future...let's say 2050... then I think there is a chance that rugby will look very different to how it does today. That's not necessarily because of the entertainment factor (the competition structure of the sport may change due to that), but because of injuries and especially brain injuries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246844#Comment_120246844

We may be about to witness the greatest and most entertaining rugby world cup ever played

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247648#Comment_120247648

Cheers.

My chronologist is on two week's holidays or maybe a fortnight, I'm not sure.

The inevitable financial cost of even successfully defending PI claims will promote change. Any successful claims could financially crush defendant bodies.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246837#Comment_120246837

Having watched Ireland play under every coach since Ronnie Dawson, yes.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241901#Comment_120241901

By banning it? I certainly don’t have the answers but rugby is going to have to think outside the box to sort out its problems in this area.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245459#Comment_120245459

Aren’t all forums of this sort prone to national bias? The refs for games involving Ireland come in for a regular hammering here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249193#Comment_120249193

Ah makes more sense if your frame of reference goes way back before the game turned professional and players bulked up.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250530#Comment_120250530

Having made clear that I've been watching Ireland play since Ronnie Dawson was appointed as Irelands first coach I would have thought it was absolutely obvious that my frame of reference includes all Irish sides since, including those of the professional era. But it seems that the merely obvious is not something you've noticed.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250745#Comment_120250745

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that negative play and tactics is something that has only come into the game recently?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250074#Comment_120250074

We've only lost one game in about a year and still the majority of comments on any match thread are whingeing about refs. It's pathological.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120252157#Comment_120252157

Of course not. Rugby as played now is faster and generally more skilful than it's ever been.

But players seeking contact create breakdowns which have to be defended and managed which allows defences to reset & it's then rinse and repeat until the ball ends up.in the hands of a player who has the skill to avoid his immediate opponent (the 'mis match'), creates a line break and a scoring opportunity.

Naturally, if a tackle is successful, the ball carrier must release and a turnover opportunity occurs. Opensides patrol behind the defensive line, tackling only where absolutely necessary in order to jackal.

Ball carriers run at opensides in order to minimise the jackal threat.

It has become systematic for it's own sake, a game fit for statisticians.

Podge_irl

Whatever you can say about the state of the modern game, it is most certainly not systematic "for its own sake".

Analysis and the complicated plays that come from it are simply a feature of professional sport. They are done because they work.