Tension over future of Rosslare-Waterford rail route

JMcL

I'm sure wexford would benefit much more from say 200k toursists using it than say 100 people using the railway

The question is which is of more benefit to the nation as a whole - I'd argue there is much more economic benefit to the region as a whole from having a sustainable transport system. You said before that it you want to live in the middle of nowhere, you drive. So let's set up a strawman, you live in Wellingtonbridge and work in Waterford. You've currently got a 50 minute drive over the Rose Kennedy bridge, a lot of it on boreens. It's about 45km give or take, The train would be about 25km and should by all rights be much quicker. The driving doesn't even take into account morning/evening traffic jams on Rice bridge (EVs won't solve this), or €4-5 in tolls per day if using the catflap

Has it occurred to you that the causation might be the other way? Lots of infrastructure in the East because of high population. Lost of rail closures in less populated because of low and (historically) falling population.

Of course there were closures in the East too - e.g. Harcourt Street line - but eventually that gave an opportunity to build a very suuessful light rail line.

And the light rail line is successful because it got built. Look at what happened to property prices in proximity to the Luas lines when they got built, similar for the Dart in an earlier decade

The original closures were driven by idealogues in government in the 1940s and 50s following the nationalisation of CIE who believed that the road is king - also responsible for the dismantling of the tram system in Dublin. In fairness to them, that was a widespread idea internationally at the time, due in no small part by extensive lobbying by the motor industry over the decades (look at the origins of the term "jaywalking" for another example).

The point is, if infrastructure is there, and does what it's supposed to do (this can be the biggest "if"), people will use it. Playing catchup like they're having to do in Dublin is too late. Grafting infrastructure into an already overloaded transport network is expensive, disruptive, and take multiples of the time it would were it constructed as some part of a strategic plan for a region.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804748#Comment_120804748

The benefits from rail access to Waterford from Wellingtonbridge would be private benefits (or personal cost savings) for relatively few people, especially when compared with the likely costs. Basically it has little to do with Dublin and any such project should be judged on tis own merits.

You go on to say: "Grafting infrastructure into an already overloaded transport network is expensive, disruptive, and take multiples of the time it would were it constructed as some part of a strategic plan for a region". What Dublin needs is actual investments based on some sort of coherent overall strategic plan. This will involve a lot of grafting onto existing facilities. I could go on..... But it is something to be done on tis own merits and should have nothing to do with South Wexford, unless loads of South Wexfords and WRCs and Shannon rail links and other politically motivated projects drain away all the available funds

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803415#Comment_120803415

It would be useful to know what sort of numbers might be feasible for such a greenway to Rosslare. 200,000 isn't realistic. Unlike the Dungarvan project, the Rosslare route has no scenic highlights. We have many bike trails already. How many do the others attract? How many cycle the Clonmel to Carrick-on-Suir Blueway which is very scenic.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804939#Comment_120804939

140k at least in 2020, so similar numbers to waterford

although parts of the waterford one are very scenic, mostly the route out of dungarvan and the route into waterford, some is just bog standard irish countryside, the viaducts and tunnels are a bonus

crossing the barrow would be great though

the more of these you connect the more it becomes a tourist destination

currently cycling from wexford to waterford isnt that pleasant but cycling waterford to dungarvan is

fuzzy dunlop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800895#Comment_120800895

The point is obvious. Your argument is fallacious because you say you can travel from x to y at a time of day when people typically don't commute. The commuter times are a disaster for Dublin. I can get off the ferry and drive from Dublin Port to Waterford in 85 min if it is 2am. It takes longer than that to get to the ferry from Red Cow if you travel in the afternoon an that is not even rush hour. All these roads have to be maintained or upgraded. And when they are there is typically huge disruption. It often took me two hours to drive from Blanchardstown to Cherrywood when they upgraded the M50.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807098#Comment_120807098

Can you provide a source for that? Is that Clonmel to Carrick-on-Suir Blueway or Rosslare?

fuzzy dunlop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807098#Comment_120807098

Where did you get the 140k figures from? It seems to be plucked from the air like everything else you say and even then it is still as much as 200k less than Waterford.

https://issuu.com/waterfordchamber/docs/network_-_issue_12/s/11060644

Let's be honest this is a case of Wexford wants something for the simple reason that Waterford has it. If Waterford didn't have it then they wouldn't even think of it. It's 2023 not 1983. Expansion of the rail network is the way forward and undoing the damage that was done in the 1960's is the way to go. Your condemning the rail line based on the numbers just before it closed. Numbers that derived from a timetable that was designed to disincentivize use. There is thousands of more people living along the line since then. Give them a decent timetable and the will use it. We are in a world where carbon based energy supplies are precarious and need to be moved away from.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807376#Comment_120807376

i think you have missed the point

the car is fast outside commute times, although the quays city center still a disaster

bus faster during commute if it has bus lane etc, like n4

no one is saying commuter traffic is good or bad

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807466#Comment_120807466

you asked for the carrick blueway I gave you the carrick blueway

https://www.tipperarylive.ie/news/home/567462/more-than-140-000-people-have-visited-tipperary-blueway-in-clonmel-this-year.html

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807535#Comment_120807535

see my other post for the link

thats 140k up to june 2020 so half a year is 140k

great observation skills that 140k is less than 200k though

wexford wants it because its a success in waterford, its a success in carrick its a success in mayo and on and on

its 250k in achill

its a realistic number that I pulled out of my arse

Valhalla90

The Timetable was the absolute killer on this route. It never stood a chance. You can’t make claims without a proper workable timetable being in place first to judge.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807726#Comment_120807726

what was the timetable?

from dublin to rosslare of a weekend there are 3 trains per day and on a weekday 4, was it worse than that?

geminiman63

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807770#Comment_120807770

Considerably worse,

From the Irish Times

Rosslare-Waterford rail service to end

IRISH RAIL has announced that it will “suspend” its Rosslare to Waterford service on July 21st

Michael Parsons

Mon Jul 5 2010 - 01:00

IRISH RAIL has announced that it will “suspend” its Rosslare to Waterford service on July 21st. Local people believe it will never actually resume.

The State-owned subsidiary of CIÉ has blamed a steep fall in passenger numbers and said the line is no longer economically viable.

The service has been operating just once daily – in each direction – with no Sunday service.

A morning train departs from Rosslare Europort at 7am and wends through south Co Wexford with stops at the villages of Bridgetown, Wellington Bridge, Ballycullane and Campile before arriving at Waterford’s Plunkett Station at 8.20am. The return journey leaves Waterford at 5.20pm and terminates at 6.35pm.

hardybuck

Better to focus the discussion on how this investment in the line will be utilised to best possible effect, and how quickly it can be made happen.

The analysis which informed the closure of the line back in 2010 focused in 2006 Census data - and they noted the low population density in the parts of South Wexford which were serviced by the line. It would be interesting to see what's changed since the most recent Census was done in 2022.

It would also be interesting to model how future planning decisions (i.e. where we're building houses) can be informed by decisions taken on investments in infrastructure like railway lines.

It'd also be interesting to see how many people are now working from home in parts of South Wexford in the new era of hybrid working who would otherwise be living in places like Dublin or Waterford. If that's been a driver of population growth, those people will need sustainable transport options to travel to Waterford for work, for essential services and for recreation.

South Wexford is one of the most deprived regions of the country - and while it's strange to be talking about this in a Waterford City thread - we should be pushing harder in Waterford to support investment in this infastructure.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807888#Comment_120807888

Thats the most practical timetable you'll see for the route, that was no doubt due to its wind down

at most you'd be looking at 3 trains per day, max

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807951#Comment_120807951

obviously population has gone up at least 15% in wexford, but the problem for most in south wexford is they need to drive to the train to wait then to get onto what would be an infrequent journey to go where in waterford? for the small % that would be working out of there

like the proponents of it are trying to focus on no existent freight because its a busted flush as far as passengers

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808022#Comment_120808022

I think this is where you need joined up policy decisions across different State agencies.

Better to have people from Wexford town and other parts of south Wexford driving 10 mins (or better again cycling in some cases) to their train rather than driving than 60-90 mins to Waterford. That's what you have in other cities, and this has to be how more people make their way into the city if Waterford is to absorb more population growth (as is planned).

Moving the train station over the Quay will make it that little bit more attractive, and we also need regular buses leaving the Quays to bring people from the train station to places like WIT (and the industrial estates) and Ardkeen.

The proposed Greenway is no use at all to Waterford, is probably not much use to the majority of people in Wexford, and the public representatives should be getting in behind this rail line.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808763#Comment_120808763

why is it no use?

that is not what you have in other cities though, in ireland anyway

you are now turning this from being a 30-40 mill refurb of the line to a 300 million refurb of waterfords bus network, and still no one would be there to use it

i wonder how many people take the train from the metropolis of limerick to waterford daily? it seems its so low, the numbers arent even recorded

now divide that by 10

now take the 40 million and invest it in buses instead, wexford was designed by god for buses

BBM77

The line in question takes in a large part of the country. It goes from Rosslare / Waterford / Clonmel / Limerick / Ennis etc and on up to Ballina. Considering all the third level institutions, tourist potential, the plan to reduce the number of cars on the road to name a few. It is absurd that this line is not developed with at least a Waterford to Galway service with a sensible timetable. As was said above, there needs to be joined up thinking on this. The government can’t talk about there needs to be a reduction in car use on one hand then refuse to development railway lines like this one on the other hand.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120809105#Comment_120809105

You say restoration would cost 300 million. The South East on Track The report said to carry freight only from Rosslare to Belview would cost around €29m. This rises to €54m to reinstate the current track for passenger services. However, should the Felthouse Junction for rapid Waterford to Wexford travel be reinstated, the total cost would run to around €89m,

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812287#Comment_120812287

you didn't read the whole thing, the only way someone is going to commute on this is if they can then get to work somehow, so youd need an overhaul of the waterford and wexford bus service to make it usable, thats the extra money

it like I commute from sallins to dublin, gets me into hueston station, say I work in eastpoint, citywest, sandyford, i need to bus or luas into city center, the luas bus etc on from there

so if I drive it might take an hour, to use the train a conservative 2 hours if the train or bus actually run on time and I can somehow connect to the train, especially going home, where I'll end up missing it half the time if traffic is bad and it only goes every hour, which is the best you can expect from a train

now its even worse in the south wexford setup, 3 times a day train, terrible bus service in waterford, doesn't go where you want it, i miss the train going home and need to stay in waterford overnight

so you learn to drive

your heart would be broken from public transport, even in dublin

the only time it is somewhat reliable is when its so regular you arent relying on a timetable, it runs early till late and its reliable, but that costs big bucks and is only available in cities

Christy Browne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120815517#Comment_120815517

BusConnects is already planned to be rolled out in Waterford and the train station is being moved and integrated into a sustainable transport hub for bus connections with a pedestrian bridge straight into the city centre. Doesn’t get more well connected than that.

Mulbert

This is all pie in the sky stuff. The line will never be opened for any type of traffic.

The only reason it was open as long as it was is because it served an industry.

The sugar beet industry is gone in Ireland and so to is the infrastructure that supported it, as it is no longer needed.

It's straightforward, to open it again to passenger traffic is nonsense.

Christy Browne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816236#Comment_120816236

Luckily the Minister for Transport disagrees with you.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816150#Comment_120816150

I know bus connects is being rolled out

you can already walk across the existing bridge

where are they moving it to? the train line runs down that side of the river

bus connects in dublin so far has done diddly except rename a few buses

what a waste of money

and zero details at the moment

so 300 million? wont be far off

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817541#Comment_120817541

It should be a badge of honour that the useless cycle-obsessed Minister of Transport disagrees with one.

And why does this thread start to discuss Bus Connects? A million miles from South Wexford.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817625#Comment_120817625

because theres no point in a train without a bus on the other end

in fact just use buses full stop, when no ones uses them they can move them to another route

fuzzy dunlop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800904#Comment_120800904

The population is there and will get larger. It's not just the population. Its the rail connectivity to the other regions and port infratructure such as rosslare and waterford port. You admitted already that you are pulling things out of your arse as if it wasn't self evident. The road system is uneconomic and unsustainable at the current rate of increase in car ownweship and other economic circumstances. Providing a greenway for the benefit of a few b&b owners is the kind of 40's and 50's thinking that kept us poor for the first 50 years of independence. You are making heuristic arguments on old ideas and old arguements.

fuzzy dunlop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807631#Comment_120807631

I haven't missed the point. Just pointing out your fallacious thinking. One of the primary uses of the car is commuting if not the primary use. Claiming you can get into Dublin in 22 mins 'off peak' from Sandyford or wherever it was is in effect a red herring arguement. And if you are travelling into town 'off peak' it is still undesirable for a huge amount of people. The night time economy is restrictive for cars for the simple reason that you can't have more than a singular drink and use a car.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818119#Comment_120818119

i wasn't though, the numbers were spot on as you don't seem to have responded to my posting a source for the greenway numbers

its not just a few BnB owners and you well know it, tourism is well over 5 billion in ireland and the numbers coming in were and should be massive in the future

the road system is sustainable and economic, the rail system is useless without it ffs