Is housing really that bad or is it just another hyped up 'crisis'?

dtothebtotheh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241751#Comment_120241751

Woah… that’s enough rental accommodation for 0.02% of the population of the republic of Ireland. No housing crisis here folks.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242166#Comment_120242166

Ya DT I left school very early like many of my generation. Anything I have I bough and paid for

Now I am just pointing out to you how people manage the system. There is nothing stopping you from renting two houses. The f@@king rental credit is less than a tenner a week. Often i. This situation the child may not be renting anyway.

All you solutions are unworkable the stick on LL backs over the last six years has only increased average rents, any radical vacancy tax will be no different. Even if it was bought in it would take 3-5 years to begin effecting the market.

You are waffling on about ineffective solutions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242183#Comment_120242183

They were good times for me at least hopping between house shares and all down to O'Sheas on Friday evening. I've kids now 10 years or so off of that and college and I really do fear for them and me having to bank roll them as no job is going to cover them through college and while we do ok couldn't cover rent for a college student. Begs the question then too even if we don't have the massive fees they have else were will student loans become more of a thing to cover a place for them to live???

mcsean2163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238984#Comment_120238984

Population hasn't stopped growing since 1990.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ireland-population/

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242157#Comment_120242157

SF is essentially rearranging the deck chairs, same amount of houses, but more to welfare recipients instead of middle class workers (with the added chaos of getting the public sector involved, historically causing slowdowns and cost overruns).

Fixing the output means overhauling the planning laws and councils and SF have been blocking everything at the council level, FF/FG have been dragging on legislation.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242157#Comment_120242157

It can get a lot worse than it currently is though. While I don't think Stephen Donnelly is great as minister for health, I would fear having David "up the ra" Cullinane in charge. I think Eoin O'Broin is a spoofer of the same type as Donnelly, someone who went to college and thinks they are an expert, without any experience. They are both new grads.

Vittu

Builds tower blocks that go 100 levels up, refugees all in one bunch of towers, people on the social in another bunch and people working in another.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241485#Comment_120241485

Do think the multi nationals use Daft?

People don't use it any more because they don't have to or want to.. Daft is the property equivalent of Donedeal, it attracts , loons, ne'er do wells and absolute time wasters.

I know of at least half a dozen properties rented in the past 2 months that no were near any website. Family, friends, friends of friends. Informal arrangements more than the sinister cash in hand, because when they want their property back they will get it back in roughly the same condition.

A member of our extended family has a large mixed property portfolio, the lets are managed by the estate agent but under no circumstances are they to be advertised publicly. Vouched clients with a proven history.

Too many people got burned by wrong uns.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241935#Comment_120241935

So why are so many exiting the market?

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242953#Comment_120242953

Those aren't the landlords I was referring to.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242986#Comment_120242986

So which landlords were you referring to?

You just gotta laugh as some of the suggestions on here.

We apparently have landlords that are making money hand over fist but we still don't seem to have the ability to attract landlords to the market in the numbers required. Why is that do? Do people just hate the idea of making buckets of money without any effort or risk as is being suggested here?

Some appear unaware but HAP a subsidy provided by the state to help house those that do not generate enough income to provide housing themselves. HAP is an inconvenience to most landlords, the state had to legislate in order to make landlords accept it. There is enough pent up demand in the medium term to keep rents high if HAP is reduced but reducing HAP will only result in tenants getting notice when they can no longer afford the rent putting more pressure on council housing lists and I don't know if anybody on here has noticed recently but councils are doing the bare minimum when it comes to providing social housing.

Its so strange that so many here expect landlords to absorb the increase in costs that are associated with the property they are living in. Others appear blissfully unaware that rentals are a necessity for those how cant afford a house straight after finishing with their education.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243005#Comment_120243005

the imaginary ones, who live rent free in the heads of all these self-proclaimed 'champions-of-the-proles', who foam at the mouth as they talk about how all landlords are parasites and should be abolished but all without fail stumble over the very first hurdle which is: Where do people live if they cannot rent?

Anyone able to think critically and with an iota of common sense can see that the rental market is a necessity, for people who cannot or do not (yet) want to buy a home and take on the burden of a mortgage. Renting is an essential part of any society, so abolishing it is simply inconceivable.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242593#Comment_120242593

I find this bizarre! Are you so desperate to minimize how bad the housing situation is that you'll come up with nonsense like this?

As I read your story, daft.ie is irrelevant, there's a hidden network of landlords with houses to spare. They'll sort you, and the multinationals out.

It's really all a very effective system to keep the gurriers out.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be a small amount of property rented by word of mouth, but it's a drop in the ocean, and of no use to somebody who wouldn't be from the area, or connected to this network.

MegamanBoo

Double post in error

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243116#Comment_120243116

Again, calm down. I have been a witness to this for decades, hyperventilating about the property market is one of the reasons it's bipolar.

IF you want to believe virtually all rentals go through Daft, that is up to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242066#Comment_120242066

I'm torn between believing he's genuine or a parody of one of those "he wouldn't hurt a fly, it's the government's fault - no facilities" types.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243116#Comment_120243116

said poster has a track record of making up BS anecdotes to try and prove a point

During covid they infamously claimed no construction sites ever closed down because they went for a walk near their house and saw some men still on site

all houses secretly being rented through friends and family is another such claim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242593#Comment_120242593

Makes sense in fairness.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243180#Comment_120243180

I would think that Daft is certainly a very strong indicator of the state of the market.

I heard an interviewee on Newstalk lately stating that when people were talking about a housing crisis 6-7 years ago, there were 90 properties in a particular area advertised on Daft, now it's 9.

I've no doubt that when supply gets this low some landlords won't advertise on daft because they can rent by word of mouth, but that in itself is an indication of the level of demand.

And I've seen housing 'crisis' over decades myself, this is different.

I met a man in a low paid job lately in his sixties. Terrified because his landlord is selling up. Where is he going to go?

At that age you might not have the social network to couch surf, or stay with family for 6-12 months until you might find something, or what, emigrate?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243116#Comment_120243116

I would think this is quite normal.

I have a number of units that are let long-term to multinationals, they are currently actively looking to rent or buy more units. They use them when employees from other countries visit their sites in Ireland. They are currently looking for more units in order to attract foreign talent that are afraid to move to Ireland due to the rental market, they plan on offering them a place to stay for 6 months until they can locate a place of their own as a sweetener. The HSE also have schemes for medical staff that are training they generally stay for only a year before they move to another hospital so are handy in that you don't end up with long term problem tenants.

I would then rely on word of mouth from friends and good current/former tenants prior to listing a place on Daft. This is how I would find the majority of new tenants.

A small number of units would reach Daft but it is generally the last resort as you have to filter through so many applicants and the risk is the greatest.

Donald Trump

If I was renting a property, the last option would be to give it to a stranger from daft.ie.

Of course, I might get a little bit less rent doing it that way, but I'd rather take a bit less for lower risk. It's your choice whether you want to rent it to the complete stranger for 2000 a month, or the person you have some connection to, direct or indirect, for 1950.

So I could well imagine that plenty of rentals are done by word of mouth and connections.

The people who froth at the mouth over the idea of not squeezing every last possible drop of blood out of a tenant are probably the same that froth at the mouth over not being able to summarily evict tenants

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243244#Comment_120243244

That doesn't mean it's not an indicator of how much availability has dropped.

Also it seems then there really is a network where properties are kept aside for certain sectors and multinationals.

I know myself from working for multinationals they would have staff to help new arrivals find property.

How's an ordinary Joe supposed to compete with that?

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242953#Comment_120242953

Are you honestly wondering why people are cashing out of an investment when the asset value is at an all time high?

Fr Tod Umptious

To solve this we have to roll back some of the knee-jerk things that happened post the boom.

The very strict mortgage lending rules have to be eased so borrowers don't have to save for years for deposits.

And tax breaks should be given to builders to make big projects worth their time.

I'm not saying go back to the tiger era free for all, but something in-between.

There is a plot of land beside me that was supposed to be Phase 2 of our estate back in 2007.

It's still empty and on it's third iteration of planning permission.

The current applicant has revised the planning from 20 or so large detached houses to 30+ semi detached.

Because he knows he could not sell the large detached houses in this market, people would see them as too expensive, and he can't sell them "cheap" because he won't make any money.

And even so there are rumors he is doing a deal with the likes of the housing body Cluid to get them to buy them and take people off the housing list.

Everything else for him is too risky given his costs to build, so the land is just going to sit empty.

Another thing that needs to happen is that China needs to get back to pe COVID levels of productivity.

That will reduce inflation and thus reduce interest rates.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243233#Comment_120243233

I would think that Daft is certainly a very strong indicator of the state of the market.

Bebo used be the only show in town, things change.

And I've seen housing 'crisis' over decades myself, this is different.

It really isn't, it the same vested interests screaming all sorts of fearmongering to stoke the market into a frenzy, I just explained to you in detail how that just happened.

We are still dealing with the last bout of collective hyperventilating.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/it-beggars-belief-carlow-estate-with-63-fully-finished-houses-lying-empty-1432642

Remember, 'you would want to fair thick to rent, rent is dead money, you have to buy'.

Then it flipped to renters tutting at people who took on massive mortgages.

Now it's flipped again.

Same pattern, same bollíx same horsé ****. Rinse and repeat. Until we enact stupid policy that brings us to the next crisis.

I met a man in a low paid job lately in his sixties. Terrified because his landlord is selling up. Where is he going to go?

At that age you might not have the social network to couch surf, or stay with family for 6-12 months until you might find something, or what, emigrate?

Well did you ask him? There really isn't any point asking me.

When SF getting in, they want to ban sale of property as a reason to end the tendency.

I can see that working wonders for the rental market.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243302#Comment_120243302

Yes Bebo was replaced effectively by Facebook, Tik Tok, etc?

Daft hasn't been replaced by your underground housing railroad.

It is true that when there is demand like this some landlords won't use daft, but there has still been a huge drop in the number of available properties.

I didn't think anyone was denying there was, until I came here!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243273#Comment_120243273

Ordinary Joe is not supposed to compete with that, multinationals are aware that the shortage of rentals is causing problems for them acquiring new talent and they have the means to secure long term rentals. Its a win win for landlords and multinationals.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243300#Comment_120243300

Solution to your example is an enforced punitive vacant site levy. He can either build, or sell to someone who can build if he is not able to. He shouldn't be allowed to squat on the site and hoard it in order to hold everyone to ransom. Either that or it should be zoned as greenbelt or a green space.........given there apparently isn't demand in that location.

Although not quite the same, below is a property which was recently put on the market for auction. It had apparently been sitting there for years and was burnt out in 2019. Eventually the council got around to some enforcement and took legal action over it being left derelict. The owners were fined in court and directed to do remedial work last year...............lo and behold it is now up for sale. So no more squatting on it.

https://www.wilsonsauctions.com/lots/land-property?id=2257826&catId=1217&isIreland=true&tab=&lotPageNo=1&returnUrl=https:%2F%2Fwww.wilsonsauctions.com%2Fauctions%2Fland-property%2FAuctionEvent%3FsaleCode%3DDP57%26location%3DDublin%26pageSize%3D20%26regNumber%3DPL-644067

Suggestions to relax lending rules are idiotic. No offence.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243277#Comment_120243277

"No longer being in negative equity" and "I'm retiring and my properties are my pension" are down the list of reasons why landlords are leaving the market according to the RTB survey of Nov 2022.

Thighs like tax, regulations and it's not profitable are above them.

Apiarist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243076#Comment_120243076

Lol at "for people who cannot or do not (yet) want to buy a home and take on the burden of a mortgage." My mortgage, for the house in Dublin which I bought almost at the peak in 2008, is €900/month. Anyone with an iota of sense would prefer to have this "burden" rather than pay €2500/month for the same house.

The problem is the lack of supply. Small LL are not the answer, whether they are parasite scum or benevolent benefactors of the society. The state must intervene by helping to build more houses, whether through the councils or through some other scheme.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243394#Comment_120243394

Yes, the renters tax credit meant that a lot of them were rushing for the exits in case Revenue came knocking.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243337#Comment_120243337

Daft hasn't been replaced by your underground housing railroad.

How do you know it hasn't? Ronan Lyons told you? Who pays him for the quarterly property porn update?

Why do think he has never expressly stated that one of the reasons there is less property available is because for the first time in the history of the state renters have some form of security and far less likely to be transient?

Not to mention there is an eviction ban.

It is true that when there is demand like this some landlords won't use daft, but there has still been a huge drop in the number of available properties

I know, I spent a long time explaining why.

The pertinent number is how many people are currently looking to rent compared to pre pandemic levels.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243386#Comment_120243386

This builder is no small time one man show.

His company have built many an estate in the region.

But if this builder can't risk building private houses (with the obligatory % set aside for social) which builder can ?

The numbers just don't add up for so many of them.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242189#Comment_120242189

If you read my posts, you'll see that I have never denied that there is a housing crisis.

I've said this already but what I've questioned was the two stories earlier in the thread where one guy on 900pw was sleeping on the streets and another one about an electrician saying he couldn't find anywhere to rent in the whole of Ireland after searching for a full year.

I've never denied that it's difficult to get somewhere to rent, but I do think the two stories above are bullsh1t.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243244#Comment_120243244

He's a landlord. The ba5tard. Get him.

Am I doing this right?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243400#Comment_120243400

Not everyone wants to be rooted permanently in one place

If I'm a student, or working on contract, or any one of a myriad of reasons do not want to buy at this moment in time, then I need to rent. The fact that mortgage costs less than rent is due to a chronic undersupply of rental units and is not the norm. In normal times renting is cheaper than a mortgage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243550#Comment_120243550

Haha. Careful now I might quit, making people homeless and driving rents up further. I'm sure I'd be blamed for that too.

Murph85

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/14/exodus-of-landlords-as-predictable-as-consequences-of-banning-bedsits/

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/14/exodus-of-landlords-as-predictable-as-consequences-of-banning-bedsits/

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243561#Comment_120243561

In normal times renting is cheaper than a mortgage

How did you come to that conclusion?

If someone is renting their property out at a loss, that's hardly what would you call normal or sustainable.

Leasing an asset should always be more expensive than owning it. Risk should be rewarded not penalised.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243571#Comment_120243571

Is that Michael McDowell who was a Minister in Government at the peak of the celtic tiger?

The man is complete and utter fanny goat and has actually gazumped Leo as most compulsive attention seeker in the country.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243638#Comment_120243638

Rent typically does not cover mortgage costs. Even if a landlord is losing cash, they are gaining equity. So rent might cover half or 2/3s of their mortgage, and they pay the rest. But at the end of the day they are gaining equity in an asset. So renting at lower price than mortgage is totally viable.

Apiarist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243561#Comment_120243561

Exactly, if the rent is 2-3 times more expensive than a 25 year mortgage for the same house, it is really not normal. At this moment, it makes more financial sense for a group of students to buy a house (if they have well-off parents) rather than rent it as a group, they will save thousands over the 4-year college term even with solicitor fees taken into account.

But I am not talking about students. When I was a student, I shared in dumps that would be honored to be called pigsties. I was very fit, why not do some exercises before having a shower (the one in the house was not working)!

I am talking about my educated friend in his 40s on a 50K salary, having to share a house with other people in Dublin. He could easily afford mortgage repayments, but he has no hopes in securing a mortgage. He is not looking for a free house, but if he could get a council house and paid his rent/mortgage to the council, would it not be a great idea? My friend gets to live in dignity and the state gets their money back in mortgage repayments.

tinytobe

I would call the housing crisis the biggest issue the country faces. There is simply no stock, nothing to rent, government house building targets aren't met. Thus no matter if you have money or not there is nothing to rent.

Murph85

He is right on this subject... I know loads of people leaving their properties vacant in Dublin or selling them. Government created the issue... the lpt is so pathetic, such a token gesture, you can leave it empty, costs as good as nothing... another example of the banana republic taxation here... very low personal effective corporation tax , taxed on many companies with more money than God. Effectively no property taxes. Low paid contributing as good as nothing in direct taxes. But the peasants on 40k plus, losing half their pay, pay for everyone else

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243727#Comment_120243727

And due to the spiraling costs of building, we aren't going to get an avalance of houses coming onto the market any time soon.

Down my way, one of my friends built a house two years ago for €300k. Same house today costs about €450 to build. I know this because my colleague is building the same house right now (same plans, different county).

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243707#Comment_120243707

What nutty financial advisor told you that?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243754#Comment_120243754

It's like the egg and hen question, one thing not happening if the other doesn't and the other won't happen, if this doesn't happen.

I'd say, it would take a similar crisis like the financial crisis of 2008 to solve this issue and it would be solved faster than just by building more houses and apartments.

The current crisis is certainly not "hyped up" as suggested.

Nowhere in the western world have I seen such long queues just to view one property.

Especially young people are better of emigrating again.

What is "hyped up" is that idiotic "Ireland is a rich country now". It certainly isn't.

Jonathan2712

Just to offer a different perspective. I moved to Ireland six years ago from the UK. In the UK I worked in London but accepted that I couldn't afford to live in central London so commuted 2 hours each way every day, so as to afford a nicer home. When I moved here, we came over for a weekend and viewed a few rental places before picking one there and then. No issues what so ever. The rent was reasonable (compared to the UK) and the house was decent.

A year later we bought a place, again no problems finding decent housing, and the price seemed very low to me - again compared to the UK. The key to this was that I didn't want to live in Dublin, and I was conditioned to accept that housing is pretty expensive by all objective measures. As far as I can see - Dublin being the exception - housing here is very good value.

Edit to add: I'm new to this forum, and get that this isn't the generally accepted view. So please don't flame me for it.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243707#Comment_120243707

Viable for who? Great for the tenant, not so great for the landlord.

Why are you expecting a landlord to provide a service at below cost? Yes, the house might be gaining equity but that's not a guarantee. How many people lost out in the 2008 crash? And what's wrong with gaining equity. Sure isn't the landlord the one who invested their money and are taking on all of the risk?

You don't expect a shop to sell you goods at below cost to them yet you expect a landlord to provide their service at below cost.

I see nothing wrong with a landlord seeking to cover their mortgage through the rent.