USA 2024 presidential election

AbusesToilets

Generally anything that Trump and his acolytes talk about is a good example, if you're looking for some.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822230#Comment_122822230

But not everyone has the same opinion and they can’t be forced to share yours no matter how kind/compassionate you believe yours to be. Part of trumps success is that he has a wide range of opinions in his coalition- some are pro choice, others vehemently pro life. Free speech and expression of opinions are core to that. The democrats tend to pounce on anyone not wedded to the “progressive” agenda which is why they are an increasingly radical fringe party

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822447#Comment_122822447

Sorry but no. You can't be for a part of Trump's "ideas", as justification for voting for him, and try to ignore the rest. He stands explicitly for fascism, racism, and Christian Nationalism. That's not even touching on him and his personal conduct. There's no equivocating out of that.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822481#Comment_122822481

This type of hyperbole is precisely why Trump got elected again. It is a lot more nuanced than you care to admit. For instance on your "fascism" moniker.

To most people a fascist is a leader of a country who wishes to lead an army to start foreign wars through conquest. Trump has an isolationist policy "America First". Trump does not want America to engage in foreign wars, which is a good thing (I believe) as we have seen historically how America have fared with those over the years, and in the recent past.

"America First" is basically Trump's version of "Buy Irish" back in the 1980's - there was European Case law on the matter -

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A61981CJ0249

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822502#Comment_122822502

Why do you think fascism starts with a leader planning invading armies?

There's many steps along the way, that's one of the last few.

And it's nonsense to equate a marketing campaign with a Trump advisor at a Trump rally 10 days before the election screaming about America for Americans only. A ludicrous dismissal of objective reality.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822481#Comment_122822481

ah right I see there’s no middle ground with you- everyone who supports Trump is a Nazi etc.

Without any contrition, The democrats are headed for a very long period of being out of power such is the way trump and the republicans got votes allover the place.

Dogsdodogsstuff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822672#Comment_122822672

Only 10-15% of Germans were considered committed nazis when Hitler took the reins. You don’t have to believe in an ideology to support it. And you can’t wash your hands of it if the warning turn out to be true. And extremism usually only has a really small minority of people who truly follow it, they need only convince enough moderates to follow for them to enact their agenda.

I really hope the people smugly dismissing any talk of “hysterical nonsense on nazis and fascists or extremist Trump ”’are right. But I suspect many of you haven’t really objectively reflected beyond “ha, dems and their preaching getting a good drubbing is so sweet”.

It’s the same with populism around Europe. Voters are gonna get what they deserve, the warnings are there. Turkeys voting for Christmas , gobble gobble make sure you base me well before you slap on the slow cook setting.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822672#Comment_122822672

Trump got the votes, Republicans didn't.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822714#Comment_122822714

It’s the same with populism around Europe. Voters are gonna get what they deserve, the warnings are there. Turkeys voting for Christmas , gobble gobble make sure you base me well before you slap on the slow cook setting.

100% this is the case. France just avoided in their last elections, but I suspect the German elections next year are going to be a step in the dark direction.

8 yrs after a Brexit vote that has nearly collapsed their economy. Who's the British politician with the most wind in their sails? Nigel Farage

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122821462#Comment_122821462

So the events related below are made up then?

https://archive.ph/dbsKw

Or do women in prisons not really count as people?

What about girls in sport? Don't they count either?

https://archive.ph/jgVuK

(As an aside, we're told not to assume someone's gender, yet woe betide the autistic teen who asks the person what gender they are directly - that's wrong too apparently. The bigot.)

As for the idea that she might be asking because she's afraid of risking injury - well, who cares, they're only women. Some men have decided it's all a moral panic, and men's opinions are what count after all.

Women’s football teams refuse to play after transgender player injures opponent

And yes I know those are not all in the US, but that's just a tiny example: there are, if anything, far more such instances over there. In fact if I thought for a moment you were interested in discussing the issue, rather than just dismissing it as rightwing manipulation of silly women, I'd take a little more time and find some of the US-specific ones.

But to bring it back to the election, the problem is not so much the number of incidents that happen, it's the attitude - similar to what you've just demonstrated - that causes the damage for the Democrats: dismissing genuine concerns that women have by an insinuation that women are being manipulated by men. They couldn't possibly have reached those opinions all by themselves could they? They're clearly been misled by rightwing men into holding opinions that are nonsensical.

I'm sure you can see that that's really not a great look for a party that claims to be for women.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822481#Comment_122822481

Seems like he has built a coalition of the working class, Latinos, Asians and young African American men head built that because the Democrats have become a party for those on 6 figure incomes, arguably they built his coalition.

Vance is going to cement it as a working class party, thr Democrats will hunker down become even more elite and out of touch, driving more voters away. If they are not careful 2036 may be their next chance at the whitehouse

Trump is the first Latino president.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824168#Comment_122824168

Totally agree- given the reaction I’m seeing and hearing they’re going to double down and apparently “fight”, whatever that means. Their funeral

lukin

I think a lot of people in Ireland support Trump because they actually believe him when he says he will end the Ukraine war single-handedly and then all the Ukrainians living here will go home and free up accommodation for Irish people .

He will do no such thing of course, no more than Harris would if she had won.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824265#Comment_122824265

Each other they are trying to impress, not the voters.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820971#Comment_122820971

That depends on your definition on 'respect and compassion'. If it's "you be you and I won't think less of you for it", that's one thing. But when people are reading things like "California bans schools from telling parents if their kids want to be addressed by different pronouns", that is going to raise eyebrows for a lot of otherwise pretty tolerant people who don't think the State should be overriding parental concerns. "The government should know more about your kids than you" isn't a good look in a lot of circles.

The issue of the practical effect is something else. For better or worse, we have had a global culture for a few thousand years of segregation of the sexes. No mixed bathrooms and showers. Men's vs Womens' disciplines in sport, even in competitions where there is nothing physical like chess, though chess does have an 'open' category which doesn't discriminate. Suddenly this is being upturned over a couple of years by legislative fiat concerning an ethereal concept , and some people expect that to go well with the voters?

That's before you get to the philosophical issues. We're being told that sex and gender aren't the same thing, yet there is a great level of overlap. What do the sports federation use as their determinant? Why do we separate the sexes in sport anyway? If everything is fluid, just abandon the categories. Some women are naturally born with genetics, even if somewhat masculine, which make them more competitive than other women. Is that not the same as a person born male courtesy of the genetics even if they are 'in identity' female? Sucks to be the woman born in a woman's body without good physical genes if your dream is to be a world-class-swimmer, no? But there is no 'natural right' to be competitive. If your genes just came out 'wrong', find a different activity to do.

Maybe these are troglodytal, uncompassionate things to wonder, but that people are wondering it is a fact, and their concerns have not been addressed. Some of the concerns are physical. "Why have a girls' competition when born males are allowed?" Some are more privacy based. "Sorry, I don't want a born male to share the shower with my daughter on the basis of nothing more than 'I identify as…'" And the response is "you're transphobic. TERF" without even validating that they may have some concerns? That's not going to go well. Or more accurately, it hasn't gone well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822230#Comment_122822230

I would submit that there is a distinction between 'calling out' fascists and racists, and 'opposing' fascists and racists. One is useful, the other is not. I don't know if you ever watched the "Jonathan Pie" rant from eight years ago when Trump won the first time, but his statement "throwing insults doesn't work any more" is every bit as valid then as it is now.

"He's a fascist". "OK, but he's still going to get the trains to run on time." "But he's a fascist" "You said that. I need a reliable public transportation system to get to work, and it's not bloody working right now as it is. He's at least validating my concerns". "But fascist". "I heard you. He's talking about what I think is important." "Not being fascist is important!" "Yes. But I still need to get to work on time… Give me a non-fascist option which is going to fix it."

The bottom line is that if you want to stop a fascist from being in control, you need to give people a reason to vote for the person who isn't fascist, and saying "I'm not a fascist" isn't good enough. Should it be? Maybe, but the reality is it isn't.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/10/politics/democrats-election-party-future-voters/index.html

Pick one word to describe Republicans and Donald Trump, the focus group moderator asked, and one word to describe Democrats and Kamala Harris.

“Crazy,” said the White woman in her 40s, who hadn’t gone to college. Then: “Preachy.”

The focus group organized by Harris supporters in western Pennsylvania, not long after the presidential debate in September, was made up of a dozen people who voted for Trump in 2016 and Joe Biden in 2020 but who were undecided this time, except for being sure that they’d vote.

Sure. Let's vote for the "Preachy" one because they're preaching the sins of fascism. Not because they provide a better practical outcome for my family, because they're not talking about it.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824480#Comment_122824480

I'd counter that the perceived issues with respect to trans rights are entirely out of whack with any real world impact. Which side speaks on the issue relentlessly? Is the trans community out agitating constantly for favorable treatment, or is it the right media demonizing them. The bill you reference in California is in direct response to fears that LGBT kids would be targeted or felt unsafe because state governments or their conservative families looking to intrude into their life. If a parent doesn't know that their kid wants to be called by a different name, or a different gender, I think that says a lot more about their failings as a parent.

To your second point, I disagree that the left is making a mistake by insulting Trump supporters. Why is there an onus on them to maintain some higher form of conduct and discourse when the whole zeitgeist of the right is denigration in the most vile terms? If someone doesn't like being called a Nazi, maybe they ought to stop being one. I don't see a distinction between different types of Trump voters. I'm not going to let folks dissemble by turning a blind eye to the racism and violence that he pushes, by claiming some other anondyne reason for supporting him like the economy.

If someone being a fascist, racist, criminal and rapist isn't enough to dissuade a person from voting for Trump, it's not really worth wasting time on a conversation. Judge a person by the company they choose to keep, as they say in the service. I choose not to keep company with fascists.

Manic Moran

It's all very well having your standards and imploring voters not to associate with fascists but now the people (I presume) you are supporting have the moral high ground while the people you do not support have the White House, Senate and quite possibly the House of Representatives. One is slightly more impactful on all our futures than the other. A refusal to engage voters on their terms (regardless of your personal preferences) concedes a large part of the fight to the opposition.

Durnan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822481#Comment_122822481

What you call "Christian Nationalism" is the Catholicism that sustained generations of your ancestors until the Land of Saints and Scholars unfortunately became the hell we now live in in modern Ireland.

Dick phelan

I expect very little in my own or the vast majority of Irish people's lives will change. The sky didn't fall down when he was in for 4 years, it didn't drastically if at all improve in Bidens years and it probably won't change much in the next 4. Honestly people worry too much about this buffoon worried he will do X, Y and Z, why didn't he do it 4 years ago then?.

Maybe we should take a leaf out of the American book and worry more about ourselves and what direction our country is going on. As for complaining about him bringing back the multinationals to America, I doubt it happens on any large scale, but if it did he would only be doing what every US president has said they'd do in my lifetime.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824912#Comment_122824912

So when they go low, go lower?

Not sure, dropping standards expected would benefit society in the short or long run.

And that aside, if they did that, and lost, the narrative would be they shouldn't have changed their principles.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825014#Comment_122825014

No, you are completely missing my point.

People who want to vote for a fascist, racist, misogynist or whatever because the person they are voting for is a fascist, racist, misogynist or whatever are a lost cause. There is no point in even trying to compete for them, and there is no need to worry about a "race to the bottom" or for Democrats to compromise their values. Fortunately, I think it is generally accepted that the amount of people who will vote for a person on that basis are neither swingable nor particularly numerous.

However, expecting the opposite, for people to not vote for the fascist, rapist, misogynist or whatever just because the person they might vote for is a fascist,rapist, misogynist or whatever, doesn't work. Very evidently it doesn't work, we just had conclusive evidence of this a few days ago. Voters obviously have more important criteria to worry about.

Engage on those criteria. Have a bit of empathy (not necessarily sympathy) for them. Make them feel validated. "OK, I understand where you are getting this idea on (insert topic here), but here is why our proposal is actually better". Or at least "OK, we may never meet on this issue, but here's this other more important issue perhaps you might have missed and let me explain why it is important".

"They are bad and you are bad for considering voting for them" is not going to convince anyone. When has anyone ever been convinced by being talked down to?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815541#Comment_122815541

That is electioneering.

True, many say tariffs and the like will increase inflation, but that is after the fact, that many blame Biden for the existing cost of living issues, while under Trump they were better off.

I am just telling you why he won.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815640#Comment_122815640

If this is true, why did the working class turn out to vote for him, given he was already president?

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825309#Comment_122825309

They voted for him in their droves because they were better Off under trump V1.0. Despite all the fancy left leaning economists in the public sector telling them otherwise. It’s fairly simple really- record inflation has decimated spending power and living standards. Harris/Biden presided over this and were made own it by the electorate

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825357#Comment_122825357

They were better off under Trump V1.0 because of Obama's economy, or tell us in as specific a way that you can, what Trump did to create the positive environment.

Here's something else for you to consider, without looking at the timeline, see if you can guess when the last 2 GOP Presidents left office.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825063#Comment_122825063

One of the main failures Harris made was chasing Republican voters. I don't think the Democrats should expend any energy chasing their support. I would agree, however, that she ought to have ran on a more progressive platform. Sanders showed that there's huge support for populist social policies, which the DNC of course, absolutely hate

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825063#Comment_122825063

I'm kind of frustrated that a defeat for the Democrats is met with calls for them to change to meet the lost voters but in 2020, when Biden won, the call was for Biden to cross the aisle so to speak to appeal to GOP members and supporters. (Which he did, for what it was worth).

I've said it on here that I feel Trump won because sufficient people who were sexist, racist or ignorant voted for him. And I stand by that. What I'm not saying is that all supporters are all of these things. I'm not saying that at all. And even of the number who do fall in to this category, I'm still not saying that all these people are all these things.

And of this group, whatever size it actually is, the biggest number of people who hold a particular trait is those who are ignorant. And again, to qualify, I'm not saying stupid, I'm saying ignorant. And by that I mean those that incorrectly blame Biden/Harris for things that are simply not their fault. Inflation can be influenced by Presidential decisions in some ways, but the US inflation experience of the last 4 years matched all major economies worldwide and in fact performed better than those. That is a message that never was taken on by Trump supporters who may have crossed the line, but the information was there. Biden was, and was seen as a strong Union supporter. His administration provided college debt relief to 5M people. One of Harris' policies was a commitment to build millions of promises (campaign trail promise maybe, of course but it was there). US oil production is greater now than under Trump. Trump did a photo-op at a McDonalds but when asked if he would support raising the minimum wage, he didn't answer. He joked with Musk about banning unions and how he liked to not pay overtime.

This was the reality of this cycle (I feel obviously) so it is frustrating for me to see so many people remain ignorant (or ambivalent) of these realities. We saw Joe Rogan joke with a guest about Biden saying something stupid and how ridiculous he was for doing it. When Joe asked his producer to pull up the video, it was actually Trump that had said it, they both just laughed it off and moved off the topic immediately.

If the Democrats had ignored Trumps record, or attitude or ideals, and Harris had still lost, we'd be here tonight saying they vindicated his candidacy by not shining a light on his indiscretions. Harris did lose, and the Democratic party does need to examine why, I don't think it as simple as them having been wrong though, the electorate itself is an entity, although harder to assess in its entirety obviously. Whatever about polls before the event, I'd like to see some of the companies do detailed interviews with people now.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825398#Comment_122825398

These were the biggest mistakes of her campaign- not chasing voters outside her base and an overly progressive agenda and record. The voters just don’t want that and roundly rejected it. But do carry on

road_high

Young males went for trump which indicates the democrats have a problem there and they’re not interested in the so called progressive agenda

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826689#Comment_122826689

I would think it indicates that USA males do not want a female as president.

Also, not all USA females want one either, although many do.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826689#Comment_122826689

I would think it indicates that USA males do not want a female as president.

Also, not all USA females want one either, although many do.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122825398#Comment_122825398

Sanders did well enough in primaries in States that were near all white and Middle class.

As Soon as he went to ones where African Americans or Hispanics were important he fell away in the primaries.

Sanders used have a lot of views that were nearer to Trump, ie in trade, especially immigration, etc. He changed to meet the needs of rich progressives in the party

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824827#Comment_122824827

I'd counter that the perceived issues with respect to trans rights are entirely out of whack with any real world impact.

In response to this claim made by another poster, I've given three examples of real world impact on women. Nobody has responded to them.

Is that because three examples aren't enough? How many do you want? Or is it because by "real world effects" you actually mean effects on men?

Because it's noticeable that trans rights demands rarely if ever seem to require men to cede rights, but always women. Yet men are very quick to tell women that they are bigots if they hesitate to cede their rights.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the trans rights movement is in fact a men's rights movement.

Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart were on their podcast the other day wondering about how on earth Trump could have won, and why they and other UK talking heads had missed it. They were bemused as to how/why transgender issues had become so controversial in the US.

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1855672906610532503

And yet… Rory Stewart used to know this:

https://twitter.com/HadleyFreeman/status/1811811149819658401

So how has something that Rory Stewart knew in 2020 so completely slipped his mind in 2024?

TBH I'm sceptical of people who claim to follow current events claiming, in 2024, not to understand why women have a problem with trans demands.

It really takes wilful blindness, post the Cass report, Maya Forstater, Allison Bailey, Lia Thomas etc etc - for anyone still to be feigning incredulity at the idea that this affects women's lives negatively, and that there is a genuine conflict there which is not about mere bigotry.

It is a weapon that the left has handed to demagogues like Trump. Sadly that doesn't make Trump wrong on this subject - instead, when people see that politicians on the left are so ready to lie about one thing, it simply discredits them on anything else they wish to claim.

And that, I think, is never going to be fixed by calling women bigots, as below:

To your second point, I disagree that the left is making a mistake by insulting Trump supporters. Why is there an onus on them to maintain some higher form of conduct and discourse when the whole zeitgeist of the right is denigration in the most vile terms? If someone doesn't like being called a Nazi, maybe they ought to stop being one. I don't see a distinction between different types of Trump voters. I'm not going to let folks dissemble by turning a blind eye to the racism and violence that he pushes, by claiming some other anondyne reason for supporting him like the economy.
If someone being a fascist, racist, criminal and rapist isn't enough to dissuade a person from voting for Trump, it's not really worth wasting time on a conversation. Judge a person by the company they choose to keep, as they say in the service. I choose not to keep company with fascists.

But if you call someone a fascist for holding a perfectly reasonable opinion (eg that women should always be allowed to undress without men being present if they wish to, or that male bodies have advantages in many sports and that suspending a girl from her sport merely for asking whether someone on the opposing team with a beard is a man is inappropriate, never mind forcing her team to forfeit their game if they refuse to play) then it's your fault if the term becomes meaningless so that people no longer feel that it's a big scary word that they don't want to be associated with.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826689#Comment_122826689

Trump to be fair targeted them over the last few years and the podcast tour was a very good idea.

Schultz and others said they reached out to Harris, but their team had no interest sadly.

When Rogan defended Harris on the Trump pod, she should have committed to it instantly, but obviously she didn't.

No matter what you think of him, Rogan is today's version of Oprah so what an own goal that was, but heh this was the lass who campaigned with Liz **** Cheney on the final stretch.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122815771#Comment_122815771

And yet when Harris made suggestions to try and address it by trying to limit price gougung , they all screamed "SOCIALISM!!!!!"

10000maniacs

Possibly the biggest problem Trump has is that in the US, higher skilled workers won't get out of bed for less than $50 an hour.

If he expects the Googles and Apples to come back to the US with their head between their legs, he is in for a shock. Reducing the corporate tax is not going to do it. Wage expectations are too high.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122827957#Comment_122827957

Them companies you mention have circa 350k employees in the US between them.

Piskin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826813#Comment_122826813

How many males voted for H Clinton & K Harris?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122827980#Comment_122827980

I have no idea. However, Trump got similar votes in 2020 and 2024, but Biden got significantly more than Trump in 2020 than Harris got in 2024.

Reports are that Black males and Latino males did not vote for her in numbers. Not sure how true that is, but Trump was able to tell multiple lies and stumbles that were allowed to pass uncorrected and unnoticed, but any slight misstep by Biden was blown out of all reason.

It is hard not to be backed by the right wing media who shout out the loudest. Why, they are eating the DAWGS.

Piskin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828131#Comment_122828131

It was the Dem's 4 years in Office that won it for President Trump. This was a resounding victory on all levels.

Tell me how

• https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828196#Comment_122828196
• Covid Recoevery
• Less severe and earlier recovery from Post Pandemic inflation that impacted all major economies
• Infrastructure Bill
• Chips and Science Act
• Supported Israel (big time)
• Supported Ukraine
• Student Debt Relief
• Introduced Insulin Price Cap and medication negotiations with Pharma Companies.
• Statistically close to zero unemployment
• Record Stock Market.

Which of these outcomes from the Dems 4 years in office do you think was so bad it gave Trump a resounding victory?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828250#Comment_122828250

I suspect at least 2 years in office of Dems telling voters that an octogenarian President's age was not catching up with him contributed to a resounding victory for Trump.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828276#Comment_122828276

Do you think the voters were so turned off by Biden's age, they voted for more someone older going in to the job than Biden was?

You really think that that gave Trump a resounding victory?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828300#Comment_122828300

I don't think it is the precise age that turned voters off, I think it was the gaslighting that Biden's age in particular wasn't an issue, when clearly it was.

People didn't buy the Dems BS on the issue, and by the time it was too late to hide it anymore, the damage was done.

Obviously the gaslighting wasn't the only reason that led to the victory, there were other factors.

But if you believe, as I do, that the Dems were capable of running a candidate capable of beating Trump, then you'd have to lay a fairly large proportion of the blame on the reasons for them not doing so.

Piskin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828250#Comment_122828250

Record Inflation that devastated families to this day.

Record number of illegals crossing the Open Border daily unchecked flooding working class neighborhoods

Record crime levels due to defending the police

Record number of small business's closing down

Identity Politics poisoning everything

Giving Israel 20 Billion and standing idly by

Cost of Housing & Rents that ordinary working people cannot afford.

74 million Americans voted accordingly…

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828396#Comment_122828396

They made a colossal mistake. Hopefully that will become clear before too long - the sooner the better! It will be clear as day by the time his term ends - hopefully early.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828396#Comment_122828396

This Is the ignorance I've been talking about.

This is what would be most upsetting for me if I was Harris, Trump didn't beat me, this type of BS understanding of reality did.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122829510#Comment_122829510

As the incumbent it’s up to Harris to communicate that counter message (I’m not sure what that is even). Clearly she failed miserably

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122822447#Comment_122822447

Thank God - somebody with a brain in their head.

Thing is about the Democrats is that you just cannot have a proper debate with them, and they do not accept their own faults.

Their candidates are not good enough either.

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122829510#Comment_122829510

No point in blaming Trump.

Everyone needs to accept their own failures.