Anybody letting a flat to Ukrainian’s via state or Red Cross?

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243307#Comment_120243307

The RTB can't get involved as they are not classed as tenants so how do you get your property back? Do you go to council /government /local TD /Red Cross /solicitor /court/sheriff /gardai or physical eviction with hopefully no assaults?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243360#Comment_120243360

Exactly ginger, and thats my query - why are they not classed as tenants if they have exclusive occupation of a dwelling and there is an 'allowance' paid to the owner - irrespective of the amount.

From the information linked earlier about the €800 a month scheme, it doesnt appear to be a contract signed by the council and the owner, rather a licence between the owner and the individuals. Yet in the past there were many posts here as to why the RTB would not accept that as a valid reason to deny a tenancy, ie just because its called a licence doesnt make it so.

Also, afaik, occupants under the RAS scheme where the council DO sign a contract with an owner, they are classified as tenants for RTB purposes even though the RTA says any dwelling let to the council is not covered...confusing !!!

So Im puzzled as to which is it. Are all occupants in self contained dwellings tenants no matter who pays the owner, or, are they council tenants if they are in receipt of RAS, HAP or Refugee Schemes and therefore outside the RTB?

This €800 scheme hasn't been fully explained to owners by the government imo and owners could run into the difficulties you mention. It's very different to offering a room or share in a private home which actually are licence arrangements.

If I was the OP, I would be reluctant to get involved with the scheme. Handing over a property worth hundreds of thousands for €800 a month on the basis of a licence that may or may not stand up seems very risky to me.

herbalplants

Friend of my husband knew this Ukrainian woman years ago and when the "war" broke offered kindly a room. 100% sure no pay at the start. She arrived with her daughter and her neighbour. He is kind.

This woman had no bother going to Ukraine 3 times last year to do her teeth... Hey no war for that.

Then she didn't send her daughter, 13 to school for few weeks cause she couldn't bother to get out of her bed and when the school summoned her in... Oops we can do these things in Ukraine but not in Ireland. Anyhow she blamed my husband friend because he is a smoker and smokes in a room off the kitchen. It is his house and he was too kind from the start.

Anyhow her case officer moved her off... Don't think that was her plan though. She even had her parents visiting his house.

This is only one story of many stories I heard from other people who were kind to give a room to Ukrainians.

I have my own sea swimming group and one riggled in trying to put a big sob story how her son doesn't Get on with her host son.... And she has to move and doesn't want to go to state accommodation....and wants certain area, etc... Big sob story...

Anyhow I personally heard few red flags stories from various people

Just be careful OP if you are reliant on getting the 800 euros from the state there is a massive delay in the state making payments.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243167#Comment_120243167

The HAP is paid as a contribution to rent. It is taxable and has to be declared. It is limited by to the lower of market rent or the capped rent if applicable. If is only paid where a contract of tenancy under the RTA has been entered into. The €800 is a non taxable ex gratia payment as compensation for hosting occupants. It is not rent as it confers no rights in the property on the person paying it and it has no relationship to market rent.

The RTB can decide whether an arrangement is a lease or a licence but only in cases where rent is payable.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243307#Comment_120243307

The RTA in Section 3 distinguishes between various types of occupants. Some come under the Act and some don't. the amount of money is not relevant but the status of the occupant is.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244490#Comment_120244490

Whether the owner's income is taxable or not is a separate question, there are several tax-free schemes available.

As you say, the E800 is described as an 'allowance' and not rent. I can't see how the label or the amount of money paid determines anything, councils pay various amounts based on different criteria.

Whether the E800 is called an allowance, an ex-gratia payment, a hosting fee or something else, the money is paid to an owner of a private property for occupants who will have exclusive possession. TBH, I can't see the difference between that and other payments made by councils on behalf of occupants of a property, and in those other situations the occupants are not classified as licensees but as tenants who fall under the remit of the RTB. If I owned a property and allowed someone to live there rent free - say in a caretaker capacity - the RTB could still determine it was a tenancy.

I'm really curious as to how this can be classified as a license agreement when the owner doesn't live in the property.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243887#Comment_120243887

It's like my father does say, there's genuine cases but it's like a free holiday for a lot of them. Plenty of them won't want the war to end.

Madd002

Same in midlands, Ukrainian girl working with us on national minimum wage has her own room in a large 4 bed house on estate eats meals provided at work, she lives rent free but has to pay gas & electric which between 4 is roughly 40 each per month, she complained about it the cheek all the while her take home of 400+ per week and god knows what else from government + medical card automatically given, & friends of mine in a hotel in westmeath one Ukrainian woman was in Scotland before war started then came over here when she seen what we were offering. Our government are dumb ducks. The only refugees here are the rich ones that were able to afford to leave it's the poor that are stuck over there.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120245455#Comment_120245455

Rent is taxed under Case 5 of the Income Tax acts. This sum is not taxable. Other allowances are against taxable income. The amount iis not relevant but the issue is that to have a lease. The Councils don't enter an contract for a lease with the owner of the property. they make a falt rate payment as long as the persons are resident in the property. It is a right top reside agreement only.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120246426#Comment_120246426

We are utter gobshites. We pay pay pay.... Yet imagine if all that money that these people get were put back into our health and education.

Jazz Hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239810#Comment_120239810

I’ve yet to see homeless defined.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120248471#Comment_120248471

Ok CH but really my query wasn't about the taxation rules - no issue there - it was about classification of licensees and tenants, and why property owners providing self contained accomodation to Ukrainians have licensees but other occupants of self contained units are always tenants.

The offerahome.ie website says councils provide a template licence agreement to owners who sign up to the scheme but I couldn't find a copy online for information purposes as it appears you need to sign up before you can see what you are signing up to.

For anyone interested, these links have samples from the Welsh and UK government for hosts who share their own home - licence agreements - and a sample excluded tenancy agreement for self contained units.

Licence Agreement:

https://www.gov.wales/homes-ukraine-excluded-licence-agreement

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1064719/220330_FAQ_ExcludedLicencingAgreement_Final.odt

Excluded Tenancy Agreement:

https://www.gov.wales/homes-ukraine-excluded-tenancy-agreement

This UK solicitor's website also has a template and general advice for anyone interested.

https://www.duttongregory.co.uk/site/commercial/landlord-and-tenant/homes-for-ukraine/

Best of luck OP whatever you decide to do.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250656#Comment_120250656

You are not obliged to use the councilo template. You simply tell the council the house is available and make your own arrangements with the occupants.