Clarity on reporting posts and on what defines a racial slur

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244026#Comment_120244026

Pink \ white, it is clearly referencing the skin tone of a particular group.

As for uncivil - One of the forum charters states:

Keep your language civil, particularly when referring to other posters and people in the public eye.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243991#Comment_120243991

If the other complainant didn't know it was a place name, what would you have them do? Let it slide? Referring to "tinkers" in most contexts isn't appropriate in any workplace, and nobody is expected to confront a suspected bigot at work without going to HR first.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244079#Comment_120244079

If the other complainant didn't know it was a place name, what would you have them do? Let it slide?

Yeah. Why the hell not?

Better than making a fool of one's self trying to get one up on someone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243991#Comment_120243991

Well obviously they didn't realise it was a place name but the fact that it was raised with HR still... ffs.

Gammon refers to a certain type for sure (not just male) but it gets used about anyone at all for any questioning of immigration policy.

Karen is just a woman hating term though - as if the behaviour it purports to refer to is exclusive to women. It just means middle aged women full stop - although it very much gets used about any woman at all if she dares not be a fan of porn, prostitution, the statement that anyone can be a woman, and kids being exposed to highly sexualised content.

The arrogance and lack of self awareness of middle-class white people complaining about middle-class white people sticks in people's craw too.

Chips Lovell

You know you're getting old when the first you hear of a term is when people are saying it offends them. I have heard of Karen though.

My rule of thumb about terms such as these, "snowflake", or "triggered" is that they are a sure fire signal that there's better things I could be doing with my time than reading, let along contributing to, discussions containing them.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244089#Comment_120244089

I think most right-minded people would agree that dropping racial or ethnic slurs at work isn’t appropriate, and erring on the side of caution is probably better than risking someone who is actually being a bigot get away with it.

The person who shared that story said that the complaint ended with a short chat from HR, hardly the end of the world is it? I would prefer that than work in an environment where bigotry is allowed.

bucketybuck

Its **** hilarious seeing certain posters tie themselves in knots trying to justify why this slur is allowed when equivalent slurs are not. They don't even have the wit to stay quiet and hope the awkward question goes away.

I wonder, does "gammon" also apply to busybody white men who have to have an opinion on everything?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244055#Comment_120244055

But it isn’t just referring to the skin tone, of any group. It refers to a group of people based upon their political views and social class. The attempt to construe the concept as racist just doesn’t stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Its use just doesn’t rise to the level where it could reasonably be regarded as uncivil. It’s silly, nothing more, and to attempt to sanction the use of the term would lend it legitimacy that it doesn’t deserve.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244155#Comment_120244155

It references skin tone, it is an essential part of how it came into use. It didn't originate because they met at a particular club sharing their views over a gammon. Therefore it has a race based element. Just as choc-ice, coconut, banana etc does - they don't refer just to skin tone. But an insult directed at a particular group of people with a particular skin tone based upon their cultural views and social class.

The posts on this thread should give indication some people see it as uncivil \ a weaponised insult. You see it as silly.

Both views suggest its use in a post will generate more heat than light / and detract from any real constructive posting \ engagement. Its use should not be seen as legitimate political debate \ discourse.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244181#Comment_120244181

probably best to leave that decision to the mods.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244134#Comment_120244134

As has been mentioned earlier. It's CONTEXT.

Clearly, someone talking about Tinker's Hill would be in some sort of conversation about the place no?

Most likely, what happened here was someone heard "tinker" and went off on one, straight to HR to get one up on someone. And for what at the end of the day?

In any case, the word tinker is hardly the most egregious thing one could hear. It's certainly not something that warrants a visit to HR either from reporter or reportee. To tinker with something is a valid phrase, irrespective of the pejorative is can be associated with.

Anyway, I'm off to tinker with my PC while watching 'Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy', while I snigger up my sleeve at how absurd this all is.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244190#Comment_120244190

Well it would be nice to get such clarity.

I hope if they are reviewing the thread they will have a better appreciation of the different views of its use and implications.

Purple Mountain

I weep for the adults of tomorrow.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244181#Comment_120244181

But those terms you reference ARE used to refer to groups of people solely on the basis of their skin colour, whereas gammon is not, as it doesn’t refer to people who are white as a group, it refers to a vanishingly small minority of people who happen to be white (sometimes pink, sometimes blue in the face, it varies based on their temperament 😂), and the posts on this thread don’t indicate anything other than some people are in desperate need of thicker skin.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244192#Comment_120244192

Yes but if a person wasn’t aware of the “CONTEXT” then they have every right to bring it up to HR. I haven’t heard of Tinker’s Hill, for example, before engaging in this thread. It’s not like it would have taken anyone more than two minutes to explain, and it’s always better to be safe than sorry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244138#Comment_120244138

Your jingoistic little Englander royals worshipping, Tory racist is what gammon is supposed to refer to, but people happily just throw it out at anyone here.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243877#Comment_120243877

I've called a family member, who isn't white, a gammon on a number of occasions due to his pro-Brexit (ironically) anti-immigration views. I don't think it's based purely in colour but more to do with the idea of being "red faced" in anger, especially on subjects that get them riled up thanks to the likes of News GB, Daily Mail, red top sensationalism.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244263#Comment_120244263

But would you have ever thought to use gammon in that way if it hadn't started out solely targeting red faced white men?

ancapailldorcha

While we're talking about racial slurs, I'd like to point out that "Globalist" is a highly charged, antisemitic dogwhistle that's bandied about this site.

Much like dual loyalty, Globalist is used to promote the antisemitic conspiracy that Jewish people do not have allegiance to their countries of origin, like the United States, but to some worldwide order—like a global economy or international political system—that will enhance their control over the world’s banks, governments, and media (see control).

https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/globalist

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244240#Comment_120244240

No, those terms aren't used to describe people solely on the basis of their skin colour.

It specifically relates to both their skin colour and other behaviour \ values \ conduct \ attitudes.

A choc ice is black\brown on the outside, white on the inside ie they 'act' white. On a thread about Obama say, should it be allowed?

They don't just "happen" to be white. The insult originated because of an involuntary skin reaction that occurs to white people. To suggest the term 'gammon' could have originated otherwise is absurd.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244138#Comment_120244138

I wonder, does "gammon" also apply to busybody white men who have to have an opinion on everything?

Surely we can borrow an Italian for those? Let them henceforth be known as Umarell 😉

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058284333/clarity-on-reporting-posts-and-on-what-defines-a-racial-slur

Gammon started out as one thing but quickly became a slur against working class men, is it racist, probably not but there are reasons to argue it is.

It's nearly always middle and upper class Whites who use it.

Old fashioned class snobbery.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244257#Comment_120244257

How could you not be aware of the context? Clearly Tinker's Hill is the name of a place.

Or yet, maybe get clarity of context first, before running to HR to tell tales just to get one up on someone?

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244269#Comment_120244269

What? I'd probably just call him a tube, an empty vessel for stupidity or a spanner, eejit, or any other list of similar names. Gammon? Yeah, a big rubbery bit of gammon would probably form a similar opinion. I don't understand your question. It's not about targeting red faced white men, it just so happens that the majority of people that fall into this category happen to be white men of a certain age who can get red faced. Believe it or not, regardless of complexion you can get red faced.

Should I be considering it racist that you're excluding people of colour in this debate?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244292#Comment_120244292

Gammon is a slur against working class men? i don't think you can be more wrong.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244271#Comment_120244271

It can mean that.

But "globalist" also has a perfectly benign meaning too.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243982#Comment_120243982

To you maybe, but that does sound like a you problem.

Unless you have a problem being labelled as a 'you'.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244320#Comment_120244320

It can, I agree but when you look at the xenophobic tenor of many threads here, I think it's being used as a dogwhistle.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244272#Comment_120244272

Well now that you explain them, certainly I can understand them a bit better. I’d never heard of them before now so that’s why I thought they were based on skin colour… banana and coconut make more sense too 😁

Similarly, gammon, once explained, should make sense, if one wasn’t familiar with the term already. It’s not about the actual skin colour, their political views or social class are not an involuntary reaction for example, and it doesn’t solely refer to anyone whose skin tone changes based on their temperament. Gammon just wouldn’t make any sense outside of the specific context in which it is used. It would make no sense to refer to black people as gammon for example, brisket maybe, I dunno, I’ve no doubt there are more creative people who spend all day dreaming up inventive ways to insult other people, and just as many who feign offence in the hope of being taken seriously.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244295#Comment_120244295

Well I’ve never heard of it, and without the “CONTEXT” I would presume it’s a unofficial local place name.

Or yet, maybe get clarity of context first, before running to HR to tell tales just to get one up on someone?

Like I said, if I was in a position to hear someone using what I suspected was bigoted language then I wouldn’t confront them. It’s not my place to correct bad language in the workplace, it’s HR’s.

”Get one up on someone.” Good grief, these minor disputes happen every day. It’s part of being an adult in the workforce, you need to learn to roll with it instead of taking it all so personally.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244341#Comment_120244341

Well, again, you have to look at the context. It really is everything. It's always important to read whole sentences, understand meaning and not just focus on a given word.

It's also handy to pay attention to whom is uttering the sentences.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244327#Comment_120244327

Yep, inane and meaningless.

It's weird how adults are so eager to use these silly childish terms in serious discussions.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244359#Comment_120244359

It's exclusively people who moan and rant about Muslims, refugees, foreigners, "the left", "woke", etc... I've never heard it from anyone else except maybe an academic or two when discussing free trade and trade patterns.

Chips Lovell

The fortunate thing about most people who trot out these dogwhistle terms is that they manage to do so in such an unsubtle fashion (e.g. stringing several together) that they leave no room for ambiguity (and ambiguity is the entire purpose of these terms). All they're missing is a Homer Simpson-style stage whisper: "I'M TALKING ABOUT JEWS".

ancapailldorcha

Essentially, yes. The whole "us vs them" mentality seems to be so strong that even cranks on your own side have to be defended despite being cranks. It destroys all room for nuance as you've said.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244353#Comment_120244353

I never heard of it either. But it's CLEARLY a place name. So therefore there's no need to be flying off the handle about it, is there?

Looks like a nice wee spot.

Like I said, if I was in a position to hear someone using what I suspected was bigoted language then I wouldn’t confront them. It’s not my place to correct bad language in the workplace, it’s HR’s.

What's better? Asking someone to clarify what they mean? Or flying off the handle, running to HR and making a complete tit of yourself?

”Get one up on someone.” Good grief, these minor disputes happen every day. It’s part of being an adult in the workforce, you need to learn to roll with it instead of taking it all so personally.

And the vast majority of the time these minor disputes are better walked away from.

You know what else is part of being an adult. Not running to teacher to tattle tale on someone, just to get one up. 😉

And all over a fairly innocuous term like "tinker".

Some people really do have waaaay too much time on their hands.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244369#Comment_120244369

Perhaps.

But I've definitely heard the terms "globalist" and "globalism" used in completely legitimate conversations. There are people who would even refer to themselves and their world view as such.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244398#Comment_120244398

So have I but when you look at the threads on this site, the term isn't remotely legitimate IMO. Stuff like "globalist elites" and "globalist agenda" are very clear anti-Semitic dogwhistles.

Boards.ie: Mike

The OP is looking for Clarity on reporting posts and on what defines a racial slur. Clarity has been given by awec on reporting posts.

As for what defines a Racial slur, Racial slurs are words or phrases that refer to members of racial and ethnic groups in a derogatory manner. If you think it is racist or have any question about it, then it probably is or at least it can be perceived as racist. We can talk on this point in circles until the end of time, the simple fact is any word could be seen as a racial slur if enough people choose to use it for that reason.

This should make you think before you post/act. Keep your language Civil. Regardless of what the word you're using is, or the point you are trying to convey, if your language is being used to purposely affect someone directly don't post it. Leave it out. Find another way of expressing your viewpoint. Act responsibly when posting. If thought and consideration is put into a post before hand it would reduce the need for backlash and reported posts.

The terms of use outline user rules and expectations.

We expect you to act responsibly in posting Material on Boards.ie. You agree, through use of this service, NOT to use boards.ie to:

• post any abusive, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, indecent, profane, inappropriate, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable Material.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244385#Comment_120244385

I think the only person coming close to flying off the handle in regards to this story is you.

Like I said, minor disagreements and conflicts like this happen all the time in the workplace. You can do like I do, behave like a grown-up and just roll with it or you can choose to take it personally.

Tony EH

You think what you want to think.

Jequ0n

To be honest I am non the wiser. If c mods can use terms such as “edgelord nazi gammons” during a debate then I assume the inflammatory language can be used by all posters. Personally I find this rather regrettable but this isn’t about me.

Thanks though

Misuse of nazi is just appalling. Do these people not even for a moment consider what the nazis did?

Fascist gets distastefully misused often also.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244648#Comment_120244648

What was the context? The OP disingenuously ommitted that.

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244192#Comment_120244192

I can absolutely guarantee that she knew I was talking about a place. I wasn’t even talking to her, talking to someone else saying we’d be going by tinkers hill on westmanstown road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244650#Comment_120244650

Well you mentioned it. I was just speaking in general - when it's used about Covid restrictions, when it's used about JK Rowling.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244648#Comment_120244648

Gemma O’Doherty thread, last few pages really.

I simply don’t think it’s a way to conduct a discussion. The term (without the nazi addition) came up again on a different thread the other day and it prompted me to ask whether it’s racist or not. I guess nobody can agree so it can’t be resolved.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244652#Comment_120244652

Jesus. That makes it even worse. 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244664#Comment_120244664

O'Doherty is vile. I cannot abide her, but she is not a nazi.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244664#Comment_120244664

It was used in relation to someone who compared covid restrictions to Nazi Germany. You knew this and omitted it.

State of this. Honestly.