Video Course Reviews - Some Questions

Kevinmarkham

Here's the thing: I'm doing a few video course reviews and I'd like to pick some brains on here.

1. What do you want to see in a course review?
2. What would you like to know about the course?
3. How long should the review be? (Or what's the longest YouTube review video you'd watch?)
4. What channels do you watch on YouTube - if any - for course reviews?
5. Any other comments?

Many thanks for your help.

FixdePitchmark

1) To be honest at this stage - we have been spoilt, at this stage you have overheads and drone footage - you kind of get use to very high standards

2) Basically if it is a must play - things to look out for view wise - a few basic course tips - and things like , there is a great hot dog at 1/2 way. Small bits of course history - some of these can struggle to give an honest view - as have been paid for by the club.

3) I never imagined I'd say this - but with Rick Shiels and the likes - people would be happy (or I would) to watch a good hour of a video. Perhaps Covid was a factor here - 20 odd mins - more realistic at this stage.

4) I'll watch whatever is up for a particular course - in fact, there is nobody out there that has an extensive pure course review , content has become more about the characters - the people in the video, as opposed to the course . The course is often not mentioned at all after the video.

Here is an example of one I used lately - just used as course was relevant - they are pure You Tubers to be honest and that can be ok.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGKMiff9a0g&t=1462s

I know he is much maligned now - but the stuff that Mark Crossfield did, was groundbreaking on the course - a bit dated , but he did great on course stuff in the early days (but was a bit too banter - for most Irish people) - they did talk about the course a good bit.

Also used this lately - and I like his style , in that it is the story of the place and course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11KGLpl43k&t=349s

5) Covered somewhat above - I watch anything by No Laying Up (Tourist Sauce) - Rick Shiels - watched some of The Bogey Men stuff as there is limited Irish content.

Like Strapped - but again more a lifestyle show

The best thing I have seen in this area over the last say 4 years - is this season of Tourist Sauce - but again , the lads are working at a very high level and big scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERDcDY6Kwg

But to answer the question - you can only currently watch what is there on a particular course - and you will watch if going to a big event or weekend away.

watched some Boards Winter Matchplay Stuff (in house joke)

dan_ep82

Great quality camera/cinematography

Course/Hole length

Course features

Practice facilities if any

Price

A good number of holes played.

25minutes for me, an hour is too long

Watch them all more less, not enough Irish channels considering the courses we have.

I prefer the course reviews that start and show a bit of the journey/entrance/practice/views then course.

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120272473#Comment_120272473

Thorough as always, Fix. And very useful

Many thanks

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273448#Comment_120273448

Again, very useful comments. I have most of those elements in there, but not practice facilities.

My only query is on price. It's not something I'm planning to include as green fees change so quickly and there are typically half a dozen different green fees available throughout the year.

dan_ep82

I wouldn’t say practice facilities are a factor of whether I play or not but definitely feel it adds to the club itself, even some quick pan b roll of the putting green or if they have a range and a sentence or two on what they have would do I think.

Probably not a necessity but a ball park figure “between xx and xx depending on day and time of year” etc

Most of us here know how good the cheaper non premier courses can be here but those abroad won’t and think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to highlight some really good and affordable courses.

Sone history on the course would be good aswell, none of the above would need to be more than a narration over some b roll. NLU do a great job in leaving you feeling like you know a lot about the course by the end of the video

coillcam

Hi Kevin,

Curious as to what your overall goal is and who would be the target audience (tourists vs Irish golfers).

Some general things I can say I'd be interested in are:

1. Course type, condition and difficulty.
2. Location and proximity to other courses.
3. Any relevant history or heritage (eg Lowry is local, hosts the Southern amateur c'ship, designed by Jones yonks ago, club won XX team event).
4. Notable holes/stretches are more interesting to me as opposed to how to play each hole.
5. Price range, not an exact price for the reasons you mentioned. However, roughly what category is it in (good value <€40, avg €40-60, premium €60-€150, elite/bucket-list €150+).
6. Brief info on the clubhouse, food/bar if present, facilities, practice area/range.
7. What's the personality/vibe/feeling? Is the course welcoming, helpful, high-end, serious, relaxed etc. Mick the caddy, pro, manager etc is a legend. Personalities are always very interesting to me.
8. Is there a golf format theme for the videos or series (matchplay vs local/pro, scramble, casual 18, entertaining a guest/visitor).

Generally speaking I don't search youtube specifically for course reviews but that's not to say I wouldn't be interested. For seeing new courses I'd watch a series like NLU tourist sauce, Golf Mates or Kwack on a trip and even something like Shiels failing to break 75 again 😀.

Ollieboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285361/video-course-reviews-some-questions

I’m guessing you mean a general review of a course or club and not hole by hole flyover.

1. ratings, nice summary screenshot with ranking and overall scoring and why points not awarded. Also comparisons to other local courses in area and national ranking. I’m sure this will create conversation and interest.
2. I would always go with the course signature hole, if that’s crap I wouldn’t bother with the rest.
3. short. I reckon 90 seconds is max, but it would depend on the quality. I can’t watch poor quality stuff and voice used in voiceover is important. Think of golf games and voiceovers.
4. i google for it and would look for reviews but if review is on a hosting site I don’t know I won’t touch it. So yes, YouTube.
5. summary of green fees, facilities, shots of inside clubhouse like bar area, pro shop and pro. Basically is it a place that welcomes guest. Lots of clubs in Ireland do a poor job of welcoming visitors.

sprucemoose

further to what others have been saying re: green fees - i personally would like to see more videos of 'normal' courses that dont require a mortgage to play. i enjoy seeing irish courses on things like tourist sauce or on erik anders lang's stuff but they are always playing courses that are out of reach for the average player, with most being little more than advertising to americans. a mix of different types would be good obviously but id like to see some of the best value courses too

FixdePitchmark

I do think Irish courses should be called out (as the rest of Irish society is being called out).

The price of golf is gone stupid .

And this notion that the price is set by a couple of millionaire American tourists is crazy stuff ...and all other, even average courses are chasing this upper level and lifting relatively..

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058285361/video-course-reviews-some-questions

I do sometimes look for course reviews, but have rarely found any that I thought were particularly good. But I am interested in looking at reviews of courses I've played / am going to play. The videos I've watched have generally been just from searching the course on youtube and looking at the review from there.

What I often find when I look at the videos is that it's more of a vlog of a guys round as opposed to much about the course. So in the likes of the Rick Sheils, Golfmates, etc videos when they go to play a course, it's more just a stage for their round. And that might very well be the idea 9 times out of 10.

I don't have much of an interest in hearing about facilities to be honest. It's a fine part of a video, but I won't be very engaged during it. What I would love to see more of in reviews are explanations of what was great about holes. You obviously can't do it for 18 holes, but you could for the hardest and your favourite, or favourite on the front and back, or favourite par 3, 4, 5 or whatever. In that review I want to hear about the dilemma you're faced with on the tee, the problem with taking out the driver or the problem with leaving yourself a long second shot in. You see this sort of thing in the preview of a major, or in the below video. So if you could just match the standard of one of the all time great architects describing his own course that would be great. But to do this sort of review of a hole, you probably need a drone flyover, or at least use the course guide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcRn7vrK4-c

Another thing I'd love to see in a review is variety in where the opinions are coming from. The opinions of a scratch or pro golfer are of interest to me, but I definitely would be interested in the opinions of a bogey golfer like myself as well. Even when talking about difficulty - I think whether a course is easy or difficult is an entirely different question depending on whether you're aiming for pars or bogeys.

I also want to see the beauty of the course in the review. Both the views on it and the course itself. It's something I'm interested when going to play a course. A comment on course condition is important too. And style of the course - is it wide open or tight, full of bunkers, lots of water, etc. And I would like to hear if there are unusual things on the course - the long green and sleepers in the european, the 10th hole (Par 5, I could have the number wrong) in Mount Juliet, the long walks in Maccreddin and that par 3 that drops about 100 yards.

As regards length - I don't think you can say a whole lot in a 5 minute video anyway. I'd be thinking of 15-20 minutes if I'm going to sit down and watch it. Or the alternative is a 40-60 minute video which I'll stick on and zone in and out of. When I'm working I'll often stick on videos that I just turn my attention to when I want a respite from work. Some videos I'll only watch a few minutes of and some I'll end up watching a lot of. If I'm interested in it I'll probably watch it a couple of times like that. Golf videos are certainly one type I'll turn on as well as bbq and amateur knifemaking. Whereas I could never turn on clips from WILTY or I'll end up watching them all.

A final suggestion would be to mention some nearby courses that might be worth playing. If I'm booking a golf break somewhere I might aim for one particular course, but would like to take in a second round if there's someplace worth playing nearby.

Good luck with it! Make sure to stick up a link here when you post one.

slave1

Needs to match the likes of Rick Shiels and Peter Finch in terms of production value and quality of video or I'll turn it off after a few seconds. Not as US centric as Good Good but maybe this is your target audience. I find Tourist and Laying up quality of production a little lacking. Skratch is good but he appears to have mega bucks behind him.

Don't even think about a video without drone or shot tracing

FixdePitchmark

Have you watched last season of Tourist Sauce Slave ?

Now admittedly it wasn't much about golf till the last episode...but it was a quality production (imo)

CSWS101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279959#Comment_120279959

NLU production value and quality of video is far superior to rick & peter finch. Only editing that goes into Rick's are some terrible attempts at humour

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279627#Comment_120279627

This is much more along the lines I'm aiming for. Nice call, Blue Note. I won't have people joining me for the first few videos - I'm focusing more on the course than anything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279959#Comment_120279959

"Don't even think about a video without drone or shot tracing"

Um. Neither. Personally, I have no interest in where the ball is going - I'm more interested in showing off the hole/course than how awful my draw is. Drone doesn't do it for me either. It serves a purpose... but not one I'm trying to fill. I know it's incredibly popular but everything I shoot is from the ground.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277325#Comment_120277325

I have Arklow, Powerscourt East and Carne almost ready to go. I'm looking at Bunclody, Druids Heath and Macreddin for the next stretch. And possibly a couple of others in the west.

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120277232#Comment_120277232

Ratings is an interesting idea. I'll look at that.

Signature hole/par-3s/toughest hole are all things I'm doing... but nothing inside the clubhouse.

spacecoyote

I think your own framework I'm Hooked gives you a good baseline for the things you want to show Kevin.

I think it's a great idea as it's very difficult to find decent video guides to courses in Ireland and we've tons of great golf to show off.

I do like the structure of things like the breaking series on RGC channel on YouTube where you get a bit of a hole flyover and blurb to start followed by the actual playing of the hole.

I guess it really comes down to what you're trying to achieve with the series. Is it purely to show off a course in line with what the clubs want shown? Is it a practical guide for golfers going to play a course? Is it in essence a review piece in line with Hooked?

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120286775#Comment_120286775

Fairly close to that actually. My main purpose is to show off the course and what makes it interesting/challenging/attractive to play. I'm not doing it for the clubs as I want to be able to say and show what I want. So, for example, my vid of Powerscourt East (the long version) would highlight a poor hole or two.

I don't really do a '1 to 18' type thing although there are obvious elements of that in there, and there are no flyovers. My aim is to make people go and play the course and know what they're letting themselves in for.

FixdePitchmark

I know that this is at the top top level - with now big money behind it. I think the fact he was from a filming background gives him an edge over the rest.

The quality of his narration is another level, and for a guy who I'd say is a bit of an intellectual and great mind - he keeps it simple.

I know a particular style - but head and shoulders ahead of them all (IMO).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MupT2XQNlI

spacecoyote

What are you thinking in terms of audio Kevin, on course, or voice-over?

If on course stuff, I'd say invest in the mic, lot of early stuff from the popular guys struggled with wind, etc... impacting on the quality

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120295695#Comment_120295695

"The quality of his narration"

Do you mean you like his voice or what he's saying?

Kevinmarkham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296130#Comment_120296130

On course audio. I bought a cheap mic and that was a mistake. One afternoon at Carne I was practically shouting at the thing from 5 feet away. But I do like the natural sounds of a golf course. Loads of birds turned up for my filming at Powerscourt - I didn't even have to pay them.

I have a Rode wireless now so hoping for better things.

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296485#Comment_120296485

Not particularly his voice and not his best as they seemed very rushed , but in his substantial catalogue of work.. he finds a story, an emotional aspect, a connection with the community.

A sort of deeper meaning to it all.

I know there are completely different styles out there. As mentioned,I haven't really seen a pure course guide.

For me there needs to be a bit more than the golf (but that is just me)..

The style variation is so vast ...comparison is of little value.

benny79

To add to the rest of whats been said I would like tips on the hole you are talking about doesn't have to be long.. something like rightside of fairway is best approach or green slopes back to front dont be long on this one or the best way to play this hole etc. I am finding lately after a good few golfing holidays here . The course guide booklets you can buy in the Pro shops have hardly any tips in them on how to play the hole anymore! There basically just showing you the hole and distances!

The European is one example. Its one of my favourite courses yet I have never broken 30 pts there Last few times I have played it I have started to write notes in the booklet I have. Theres no tips in it but there is 2 pages in the centre talking about the history of the course etc and gives a tip on the index 1. You would have to read it but it basically said the bale out areas of the Tee.. How the design makes you think the feather on the left is in reach when in fact its 320 yds It does look a lot closer of the tee. Says this is what it was designed to do.. and if you go left the pond/water is only 85 yards long but gives the impression its longer which it does! I actually found the explanation of the design and the illusion it gives very interesting. As it was a hole I always scratched! Rest assured I haven't scratched it since! but this might only work for Links courses.

but I mainly watching a course review for if I am playing it or thinking off and some tips.. Dont have to give tips on every hole probably just the signature ones

dan_ep82

When are you planning on releasing these to the public ? Or even a YouTube link I can subscribe to.

Always check your book before playing somewhere new so I’d imagine the videos will be well worth the watch

Ally McIntosh

Fix is correct on Erik Anders Lang. He finds a story, investigates behind the scenes and lays it out in an easy to understand narrative for his audience. He brings proper journalistic intent.

No Laying Up, Good Good etc… are really just a bunch of lads / kids having a laugh with each other.

Place for both types

srfc d16

No laying up covers a few different sides of golf. They have the fun stuff with the strapped series, cinematic stuff with Tourist sauce and more pure golf stuff with their film room and crash course stuff. I think if someone was a fan of NLU content and were told that Good Good is similar they would be very disappointed with it. I don't really see crossover between the two.

slave1

Good Good's guests are phenomenal for a short lived YT channel, NLU should be embarrassed with the quality of the footage from the full round with JT and Spieth recently. Golfholics were class but life got in the way.

Kevinmarkham

Thanks for all the feedback - and to Fix for his input.

For anyone still interested, here's a link to my YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/@kevinmarkhamgolf3889

There are three Irish videos up (plus some 2 minute ones from Portugal, shot on an iPhone in 2020)

Arklow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whz9JO__waw

Carne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hXgYkcM7xg

Powerscourt East: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jZiDFQklAk

I'll have the new Druids Glen up soon, too.

Videos are 14 to 16 minutes long. I'll need to get a wider source of music at some point.