Italy V Ireland Match thread

Tommybojangles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120288110#Comment_120288110

Ok

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120288786#Comment_120288786

I do think you are being very charitable in your description of the passes! For the Lowe try I don’t think that Byrne released Aki into space, he gave a simple short pass to Aki who was 5 metres behind the gainline. Aki then took the ball to the line and released VDF in contact. Did Byrne play a role in a well worked backline move? Yes. Would I expect any international front row forward to be able to make that same pass? Yes. Most of the examples of him unpicking the Italian defense you gave are mundane functional attacking contributions. In what was an open game at times it’s a pretty underwhelming highlight real.

Athletically you don’t need a wingers pace at 10 but it’s nice when you can offer some running threat.

I think he was poor defensively today and had a role in 17 of Italys points via missed tackles, poor decisions and a misread. He may be a better defender in the URC but International is a big step up and it’s always extra difficult if you have a gap athletically. He was one missed tackle vs three made against France as well.

I think dropping Carbury has been a bit of a strange move by Farrell and based on today I hope it’s one he reverses for the World Cup. I don’t really see anything that Byrne offers at this level that Carbury doesn’t. I think the debate should be between Crowley and Byrne. Like you say Byrne may be the better out and out 10 atm but Crowley covers 12 and 15 very well and can change a game coming off a bench, rather than manage it.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289055#Comment_120289055

Can you tell me what players stepped out of the line and missed tackles today? They were responsible for a lot if Italy's points leaving a gaping hole in the line which the Italians exploited every time that happened.

TRC10

I can't remember the last time our attack functioned as well as it did today without Sexton at 10. Byrne deserves credit for that. I think he did a very solid job, and I've been a big skeptic of his for a while. Some of his involvements in the attacks might not look significant, but they were. He took the ball flat, fixed defenders and picked the right passes. He played a big role in unlocking the Italian defence on multiple occasions. He's had a lot of media coverage over the last couple of weeks and I suspect lot of people had already decided they were going to lay into him before the match even began.

I thought it was a really good win personally. Italy played miles better than they did against France, we were missing/rested 8 first choice players and we beat them by 14 points in Rome, having been seriously under the cosh at one stage. Lots to work on of course, but I was really pleased with that match. That was the best Italian performance I've seen in years. They could do a serious job on Wales.

And I don't get some of the Conan criticism. He averaged 2.3m per carry over 9 carries. Doris averaged 2m over 12.

fitz

100% think this Italy side should beat Wales.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289055#Comment_120289055

Yeah, look, he's playing in a really mix and match backline today, with a guy making his first 6N start inside him, and two 12's outside him. While he was on the field, we scored 34 points and 5 tries. As I mentioned earlier, across our past 6 visits to Rome, we've averaged 31 points.

We can go back and forth on the specific passes he made all day, but especially his involvement in the Keenan try and the Aki disallowed try are exactly the sort of thing people say they want to see in a 10, and that they typically don't see in Carbery (a number of people noted how exceptional it was in Carbery's performance v the Ospreys).

Very few Irish players played well today, and he was one of our better performers.

You're downplaying his direct role in tries we scored, but you're claiming he was responsible for 17 points we conceded? That's absolutely ludicrous.

Look at the Varney try - he's deep in the backfield at the time when Aki and Lowe are at sea for a clear line break. Keenan gets caught in a kind of no man's land where he's not close enough to pressure the ball carrier, and not deep enough to cover a kick if it comes. Keenan has to keep his body turned outwards towards the winger, and Cannone burns through on the inside. Aki can't get there, missing the tackle, and forcing Byrne up to make it, which he does (along with Keenan). Bundee and James Lowe never get back onside, and all three of Ross Byrne, Hugo Keenan and Caelan Doris are committed to the collision on Cannone, leaving Varney a clean run in for the try. There is absolutely no way that try is on Ross Byrne, and anyone claiming otherwise is trying to push an agenda.

It's even more laughable to claim the intercept is on him. It's not even clear from the pass if the intended receiver was Byrne or Keenan, but either way, the onus is clearly on Aki to identify the winger has shot up into the space and not to just pop the ball into his arms. Once again - seriously ask yourself who is to blame for that try?

On the 3 points you're putting on him - yeah he definitely gets burned on the outside by Menoncello, but once again he's getting to that position after chasing up from kicking the ball deep. He's got two props inside him in the defensive line here, Bealham and Porter. This was a serious breakdown of our whole system. Menoncello kicks it through (as Hansen gets across) and Hansen gives him a little shoulder bump, which Adamson gives a penalty for. Putting this on him too seems a little spurious to me too.

You say 1 missed tackle and 3 made against France like that's some outrageous stat line (like for example Bundee's 9 made and 5 missed today, or Craig Casey's 2 made and 3 missed), but it's an identical stat line to Johnny Sexton's and Stuart McCloskey's from the French game.

You can claim he's a bad defender, but you're not providing a whole lot in the way of facts to support it.

I do think Jack Crowley will be Ireland's next long term 10 after Sexton (it'll take Sam Prendergast a year or two), but he needs to be playing more games at 10 for Munster. It's hard to infer anything other than the coaches didn't trust him today with the game in the balance.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289075#Comment_120289075

Italian defending was pretty shocking I thought, it felt as if we were getting line breaks at will and didn't have to work particularly hard for any of our tries along with the close opportunities from Aki and Lowe twice.

I think Ross Byrne is what he's always been, a solid and reliable player who can operate to a certain level. I would trust him to close out a game or to start against opponents like Italy but there's a clear ceiling on his ability. I don't think he's a Sexton successor but he could certainly have a role as a squad player going forward.

It's also important to note that Italy had zero players in their starting lineup with more than 50 caps while we had multiple along with a pair of test Lions captains on the bench so the notion that we were walking wounded and a ragtag group patched together at the last minute isn't really true. It was a vastly experienced selection and much more so than our opponents.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289075#Comment_120289075

Byrne has certainly improved over the last twelve months. I'm happy with him and I think the more games and experience he gets the better he'll get.

Conan is a fine player but Doris is a better 8 and it's not even close. Somebody said during the match that they should switch Doris and Conan and I fully agree with that.

As regards our performance today. We kicked the ball back to them a couple of times when we had the opportunity to go for touch. Those were stupid decisions because Italy are at their best counter attacking.

Ireland had a lot of missed tackles too which isn't normal.

Overall I don't agree that it was a good performance. It was just okay.

All_in_Flynn

Ye I'd have no concerns about Byrne today. Thought the attack functioned reasonably well. I think there is too much attention being paid to him getting burned on the outside by the Italian 12 in the first half. He was playing with an inexperienced 9 and a makeshift centre partnership.

On another day he'd have had a big hand in 4/5 tries.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289114#Comment_120289114

I think Ross Byrne is what he's always been, a solid and reliable player who can operate to a certain level.

And over the last 3 weeks, he's proven he can operate at 6N level. Our attack has functioned to a reasonably high level whenever he's been on the field. That's a huge feather in his cap. If you look back to last year, our attack was poor against France and poor against 13-man Italy until Sexton came on.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120288694#Comment_120288694

Carberry is a turnstile. Where do you hide him?

Dubinusa

That was Byrnes 3rd start? He wasn't great, he wasn't poor. Carberry was dropped because he's awful. 37 caps and he still isn't getting the job done.

Munster fans calling for Carberry to be moved out of the 10 shirt , not so long ago. Hymmn

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289292#Comment_120289292

I’d say Carbery was average to fine for ireland, and slightly worse for munster. Like, against France last year, Carbery was pretty decent.

If anything he got dropped when he started playing better for munster than he has done in a long time.

Him and Byrne are similar to me in that they both have obvious weaknesses. But both are fine.

I feel like improvements from ringrose, Keenan, Lowe, Hanson together have made it so we can probably survive better now without sexton.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289112#Comment_120289112

While he was on the field, we scored 34 points and 5 tries. As I mentioned earlier, across our past 6 visits to Rome, we've averaged 31 points.

”Last 6 visits” seems pretty arbitrary. Is that the last time the average dipped below the 34 we scored today?

Neil3030

It would be so cool if Italy could finish ahead of Wales and one other country this year. They've been one of the best teams to watch.

I mean, it's unlikely but if they replicate today's performance in the final two rounds, you never know.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289342#Comment_120289342

I think they'll beat Wales!!! That's delicious if it happens.

typhoony

One thing I'm convinced about and today proved it for me is that the most important player in the Irish setup is Henshaw, because he can be equally effective at covering 12,13 and 15. If we lose Ringrose or Keenan in the World Cup and Henshaw isn't available we're in big trouble.

Lil Fred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289445#Comment_120289445

Henshaw won’t cover 15

sydthebeat

Andy farrell was quite happy with that result. It's easy to see why when you consider the injuries and the disruption caused by the timing of them

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289342#Comment_120289342

Objectively, they should hammer Wales. They are patently a better team at the moment, and I could see them beating Scotland too. It would not shock me if the tournament finished with them being the toughest team we face.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289323#Comment_120289323

No, that's because I had a ready to use data set of all of our results going back to the start of 2010, so it was easier and quicker as a datapoint for me to pull.

I'd have to go back to include the 2007 season (and our last 8 visits) to exceed the amount we scored today.

If I go back across all 11 trips to Rome since 2001 in this Championship, our average points scored is 35.09.

Rigor Mortis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289323#Comment_120289323

There does come a point where going back further makes no sense.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289468#Comment_120289468

And that 1.09 point deficit is ALL Ross Byrne's fault.

He played well enough today. He did what he does, he had some nice involvements for tries, he kicked well from hand. The two missed conversions were very tough. I don't see at all that any other OH bar Sexton would have improved things for us.

Overall I thought we were decent against a good team. That was a proper test match. I really don't know what expectations people have that warrant some of the complaints.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289468#Comment_120289468

Ok it’s just a coincidence then but I’ve just checked and any of the last 2,3,4,5 all have higher averages. So it is the last time the average dipped below the 34 we scored yesterday.

I agree with Rigor Mortis point as well tho. For example, the last data point there was 2011. Only 3 players from the 23 are even still in the squad.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289468#Comment_120289468

There's lies, there's damned lies and then there's statistics.

Comparing seasons is a futile exercise. There's so much changes each year and the gulf can be huge over two or three years.

We weren't ranked no.1 in the world any of those seasons. We didn't have the results over the previous twelve months that we had this year. To put the credit for points scored down to one man is ridiculous. And that is what you are doing whether you think it or not.

There's fifteen players on the park each game. The relationship between the scrum-half and out-half is hugely important. The right no.9 can make thinks a hell of a lot easier. The relationship with 12 and 13 is critical too.

When have we had an 11 that can kick the ball like Lowe? When have we had the quality on the wings and at full-back that we have now?

And we haven't even started to consider the other five teams in the six nations yet and where they are at compared to other seasons.

Now if you've read earlier posts you'll see I like Ross Byrne and I think he's improving and will continue to improve with more game time. I'm very happy with how he is doing and I've no doubt he's our best option outside of Johnny Sexton.

I'm simply pointing out that your stats are worthless.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120289530#Comment_120289530

Yeah, but you’re literally splitting hairs whatever way you look at it.

My general point with the stat on how we scored 34 points and 5 tries (while leaving at least 2 more out there) is that all evidence would show we did exactly what we could have expected to do yesterday in attack.

It works both ways too, if you’re going to go back and compare it versus historical averages as well, then you’ve to give some acknowledgement that this is probably the best Italian side of that whole period too.

sydthebeat

Italy today are arguable better than they have ever been since 2000. All you have to do is look at the scalps they took last season, and also how much difficulty a fully stacked french team took to beat them by five points.

For an irish team, where over half the team were effectively reserve players, to score five tries against them in Rome, is a good result.

Former Former Former

Whatever our issues were yesterday, attack was low down the list.

More concerning was the loss of defensive shape, and if that's attributable to the changes in personnel, then we need to work harder to get everyone up to speed. Far too many gaps and dog legs.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120288865#Comment_120288865

100% correct. Byrne's tackles are more effective. And a bit like Ringrose, when he misses a tackle, they are still effective because he can disrupt the play. Carberry tends to soak tackles.

phog

I wonder what would previous RWC winning teams have put on Italy yesterday and would the game have been in the balance midway through the second half.

Before the game I said we'd probably get the BP win and we did but I really didn't see us being torn to shreds in defence and at times finding the Italy defence line difficult to break. Even with all the changes we should have done better