Study shows public charging infrastructure inadequate

zg3409

https://www.irishevowners.ie/study-shows-ev-charging-infrastructure-is-clearly-inadequate/

Our study calculated a score for the M1 (motorway) of minus 19, meaning there are 19 DC Fast EV Charge Points short to meet current demand. For the M8, between our two biggest cities, the score is minus 39. That means the situation is much more serious than stated in the new National EV Charging Infrastructure Strategy published recently by ZEVI. 

crisco10

While I qualitatively agree with the conclusion, I'd be really interested to see the methodology and what the equation looked like.

talla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058286273/study-shows-public-charging-infrastructure-inadequate

Study doesnt inspire confidence with some very basic errors.

N2/M2 goes nowhere near Dunshaughlin, that would be M3.

N3/M3 goes nowhere near Mullingar, Mullingar would be N4/M4.

Beta Ray Bill

In other news... "Water is Wet"

We all know this. There's a heap of reasons why but most of those reasons start with E end with a B and have an S in the middle.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298181#Comment_120298181

I asked the exact same question to them now, as in how were the numbers calculated. It would be great if they used a system that also was used for UK or elsewhere to compare. I have said we need 3 times as many 50kW+ chargers right now, let alone future needs.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298247#Comment_120298247

The actual problems have been caused by service station operators preventing eCars from installing the desired infrastructure. eCars wanted to install a number of sites following the Mayfield model but the operators saw fit to keep their future competition off the ground.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298273#Comment_120298273

I'm not sure that's correct.

I know of a guy working for Applegreen and he said they are waiting on ESB to either run cables OR run cables and install chargers.

The ESB were given the contract to do the work but it's not getting done for some reason, I don't know if there's an expiry date on the contract.

From a business perspective though it makes 100% sense to get these chargers rolled out ASAP, you're going to have people loitering around for 15/20 mins at a service station on motorway with nothing else to do except go into a shop and buy a drink/food. (This is where service stations make huge money)

It's almost as if the lads working for ESB are choosing not to do that work in favor of some other work.... 🙄 #joke

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298281#Comment_120298281

There's a difference between ESB Networks and ESB eCars. eCars have been blocked from deploying planned EV charging infrastructure in motorway service areas because the site operators wanted to install their own infra. Coynes cross is a great example of Applegreen booting out eCars.

There is for sure an issue with the turnaround time for ESB Networks on grid connections, they seem to have long lead times and do not prioritise EV connections over any other planned site. They're still operating on the old style planning timelines that are common with any other type of building.

slave1

another way of delivering the same message repeatedly

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298309#Comment_120298309

I understand there is a difference, but if Networks have the contract to do say X, they can't just give eCars a contract to do X.

From what I've heard it sounds like an absolute mess.

The service stations all want them in ASAP, people hanging around with nothing to do = gold. There is no way they'd block it unless there was a very good reason for them to so (Or they're contractually unable/forbidden from getting anyone else to do it)

There's been a heap of allegations of back handers in the ESB now going back years (4 facing legal action) and I'd bet this is one of the main reasons rollout has been so slow.

the_amazing_raisin

I'd also be more interested to hear about how the analysis was done. The article is a bit vague, saying they based it on the number of petrol pumps and "adjusted" for EV charging habits

I don't fundamentally disagree with the findings but I think transparency is important here

It's also worth considering what the survey considers a fast charger. They seem to consider all DC chargers however IMO 50kW chargers are no longer "fast" and should be considered more like destination chargers for places like shops or sports pitches and gyms.

If the minimum power was raised to 150kW then I imagine the scores would be considerably worse. And even 150kW is showing signs of being outdated with cars charging at over 200kW becoming the norm

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298335#Comment_120298335

Your still mixing up ESBN and eCars. ESBN are not giving any contracts to eCars for the work. When eCars want to deploy a new charger they too have to place an order with ESBN. There is strict oversight to ensure requests coming from ESB are not prioritised over anybody else.

Service Stations may want them asap but did not engage with ESB Networks for a grid requirements early enough. From an ESB Networks point of view they have a book of work from every housing development and every commercial business that has requested grid connections. Applegreen do not get to jump ahead of a supermarket just because they feel they are more important.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298431#Comment_120298431

I get what you're saying, but to say that there is "strict oversight" doesn't seem correct to me.

Like there are some stations waiting years for ESBN to lay a cable (Regardless of who's installing the charger itself), something is definitely wrong.

Yet some developers can get cable laid very quickly at the drop of a brown envelope.

Corruption affects everything...

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298482#Comment_120298482

Which projects should ESBN push down the queue so that you can charge your car? Should we delay housing projects, a supermarket, maybe local business expansions. If an operator fails to build in supplier timelines to their deployment then they need to do what CircleK showed in Norway and deploy temporary on-site battery buffers.

The current situation means that planning permission is not required to install EV charging infrastructure, this doesn't mean a planned operator can get away with order equipment today and expecting to energise it next week. They need to plan ahead and book network capacity to ensure that they will be able to install and operate the equipment. AG are a global business so should be better at forward planning such a key requirement for success or finding a short term workaround such as buffers.

If it takes a year to get a grid connection perhaps that should be looked into rather quickly. Fine if you're building a new housing estate, less so if you'd like to roll a charging network in a hurry.

liamog

Interesting article based on an interview with Fastned in the UK. It echo's my points that the distribution networks just aren't set up to cope with the needs of charging networks.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/charging-firms-car-makers-must-work-together-hit-network-goals

“The biggest barrier we face almost always come from the way that the distribution network operators are set up you. It’s not a very sexy subject, but the infrastructure and management of getting power from a big power station into a location just isn’t set up for charge point operators. A big housing development might have similar needs, but having the transformer operational on a certain day isn’t critical when you are on a three-year schedule, so long as it’s operational when you open.

“We, in contrast, build around a three-month schedule, and can’t do anything until that connection is on; we literally can't sell a single kilowatt hour of electricity without it. That connection, and the legal arrangements associated with it, erode any value in a site until they are complete. In some cases, the process is more complex than it needs to be. Some are pragmatic, but others are the polar opposite of pragmatic.”

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309751#Comment_120309751

To an extent it doesn't matter who owns the utility. If, for example, they have to bring a new power line to the site and build a new transformer then those require planning permission, and it isn't a given that it'll be granted

Now what's really dumb is that the chargers got installed before the grid connection was in place, or that Circle K and Applegreen didn't apply for the upgraded connection ages ago

It's another example of our disorganised planning system, where there isn't a single application process for the whole site. Same kind of messing is keeping a lot of offshore wind farms being built

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309786#Comment_120309786

That's what we would call an expedition fee 😉

The head of Applegreen was on the news a few years ago moaning about grid connection fees. I'm not sure how much wiggle room there is on price but I kinda suspect they wanted it both fast and cheap

In my experience that combination only works for lap dances 😂

liamog

It's another example of our disorganised planning system, where there isn't a single application process for the whole site. Same kind of messing is keeping a lot of offshore wind farms being built

In this case planning permission isn't needed to install the charging cabinets. I suspect if they were going through the planning process they'd be a bit more diligent about booking the slot with ESBN.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309968#Comment_120309968

For the chargers yes, but if there's new power lines or transformers needed then I'm pretty sure they're not exempt?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309990#Comment_120309990

The substation is exempt, it allows a charge point operator to exempt the planning process. In the case of network upgrades they would always have been dealt with under a separate planning process anyway.

I do think the exemption was a bit too restrictive in only applying to 4 charging units.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309848#Comment_120309848

From what I read on that thread we actually don't

cannco253

https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4076946/bp-pulse-most-powerful-uk-ev-charging-hub-date

I know it’s UK news, but Interesting comment from BP - power more important than the number of charging points…I’m sure feedback here would be the other way round

“The company officially opened the new hub in Kettering, North Northamptonshire, which features 10 300kW chargers that together boast 3MW of installed capacity. The facility can charge up to 20 cars simultaneously at 150kW, allowing each car to gain up to 100 miles in around 15 minutes.

"We are thrilled to introduce another hub here in the UK," said Akira Kirton, vice president, BP Pulse UK. "It's our largest and most powerful EV charging hub yet.

"Customers say power is more important than the number of charging points. That's why we're focussing on expanding our ultra-fast charging infrastructure, using the latest technology to ensure reliability, and designed to keep up with the charging speeds of vehicle batteries as they advance. At BP Pulse we believe the EV charging network the UK needs will be delivered through EV charging in the right location, at the right time, and at the right speed."

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120311694#Comment_120311694

ESB networks is the publicly owned company thats responsible for connecting new customers to the grid. The issue is a question of prioritisation, a housing development and a charging hub have similar grid requirements, why should we prioritise a charging hub over housing.

At the moment its up to the companies ordering connections to the grid to ensure that they so in a timely manner. Its an item I really hope ZEVI set up a task force for as we should have the capacity to service the requests in a much faster time frame without delaying orders from other developments.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120311897#Comment_120311897

If ESB networks are publicly owned then why are they screwing the public on prices? If they were publicly owned they wouldn't get away with it

Hence they are not publicly owned

MarkN

And even when it’s there, you’ve this absolute bollock5 to put up with.

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312207#Comment_120312207

It really needs to become an €80 fine at the minimum for this crack.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312147#Comment_120312147

Hate to break it to you, public ownership has nothing to do with pricing.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120311859#Comment_120311859

I mean it's easy to say the number of charging points doesn't matter when you install 20 of them 😁

To an extent, I think they're correct for charging during a journey, you don't want to be hanging around with your 230kW capable EV6 because there's only a 50kW available

Equally it's pretty annoying when the charger advertises 180kW and only provides 40kW because the grid connection isn't there (looking at you Applegreen 🤨)

So it's important that there's a decent amount of chargers AND enough power for all of them at maximum power. This is something that some providers already know (Tesla, Ionity) and others learn the hard way

sy_flembeck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312207#Comment_120312207

And it's the same at that spot every single night of the week as I walk there every evening. I got the shock of my life tonight to see an EV actually charging in the one on the left! But that's what you get when nothing is ever enforced I suppose. Cars are constantly parked on the new plaza right beside it too. The place is a joke

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298516#Comment_120298516

We push the projects where lads were making 1000s of euro into their hands and sharing it around their immediate installations circle to fast track large housing developments down.

Start there.

Then I'd start pushing down large commercial developments and hotels down. We've enough office blocks and hotels to beat the band.

We have climate goals to meet and this carry on isn't helping.

And the joke/notion that their is strict oversight in ESBN connections is laughable. Its extremely fallible.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120312871#Comment_120312871

Actually it does. We can see this in France.

But let's not talk about other European nations and costs. Ireland is always more special and there is more reasons... many reasons. Or let's call them reasons not to do stuff, we're as good as the UK at that.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315584#Comment_120315584

ESBN are publicly owned, just because you don't like the prices they charge doesn't change that fact.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315582#Comment_120315582

Why does a forecourt operator deserve to be fast tracked over any of them because they weren't willing to put it in their order in a timely manner?

Wouldn't it be better for us to put in a proper task force for handling rapid deployment infrastructure? That way there's no concept of pushing back those who do get the order in on time.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058286273/study-shows-public-charging-infrastructure-inadequate

104 chargers on the N/M2, which is 16km from the M50 to the roundabout near Ashbourne.

Thats one charger every 320m both ways.

One thing I’ve been wondering is would it make more sense to open charging facilities in places where there already is easy access to plenty of power?

Industrial estates and business parks often have major electricity infrastructure on site and many are close to motorways.

Maybe a solution might be to start build charging clusters where the infrastructure already exists?

The new service stations on the motorways should have had major grid connections as part of their planning. They’re only built a few years at this stage. It’s a fairly enormous lack of strategic planning if they didn’t.

Also if EV infrastructure is a key priority in climate change objectives, surely the ESB can just recruit teams to get the projects done. They seem to move at a snails pace and not just on this. It must be possible to put a big project out to tender and get a continental contractor in if needs be and just get the sites rolled out.

It seems to me that EVs are still being seen as some interesting toy rather than a real mode of transport by the ‘powers that be’.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316202#Comment_120316202

Well it's not me it's the public don't like the prices knock on impact to our electricity prices. So if this were France the government (owners) would do something. But its ireland and its as always about gravy. Plenty of it.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316229#Comment_120316229

Doesn't really answer the corruption question which was exposed and I've no doubt its the tip of the iceberg. The notion there's a list that's done by committee and it's infallible has been proven to be false on any metric.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316409#Comment_120316409

That's doesn't change the fact ESB networks are under public ownership. We're talking about them installing grid connections. Electricity prices are a whole different discussion. I don't think many members of the public have an opinion on grid connection fees.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316414#Comment_120316414

Why do you think a forecourt operator should be priortised over any other development. The housing developers paying to skip the queue shouldn't be allowed either, surely your own arguments are to stop pay to skip.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317049#Comment_120317049

I suppose probably to achieve climate action targets and bring down the carbon cost to the state.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316318#Comment_120316318

This is what SSE are doing, they're opening a few charging hubs in some industrial estates, I think the first one is along the M3

While it's easier from an installation viewpoint, it might not make sense from a customer experience view

Generally industrial estates are in the middle of nowhere and have little by way or restaurants or bathrooms that are open to the public. And while they tend to be fairly close to main roads, the access roads themselves might not be great

A good example would be the industrial estates around the N3 near Mulhuddart, some of the roads are pretty torn up there

They might also close at night, which isn't great for anyone travelling long distances after work

So if you're setting up a charging hub, you have to do everything yourself in terms of providing food, bathrooms and rest areas, which might not suit every operator. Easier to piggyback on existing facilities in many cases

There's also the problem that the places people want to go don't always have good power supplies. For example if you were to build a 20 car HPC hub in a popular tourist town like Dingle or Spanish Point you'd probably end up doubling the town's power supply

Now, this is where things like batteries or mobile charging hubs can alleviate this somewhat, but you're still looking at a fairly large infrastructure upgrade

I guess for ESBN they want to fulfill all of their projects, but there's also a limit to the number of engineers they have who can work on the big infrastructure stuff. I'm not sure exactly what the upper limit to a Safe Electric cert is, but I'm guessing working on a 100kV transformer is beyond their skill level

There's also the problem that the equipment for big grid connections isn't exactly off the shelf stuff. It's very expensive, is made to order and has a lead time of months

On top of that, every other country in Europe is also scaling up their power grid for EV charging, and we're in a high inflation environment. So prices go up and lead times get longer

And again on top of that, there's a bit of a disagreement going on to the east of us about exactly where the Russian-Ukranian border lies, and currently the Russian side doesn't agree with Ukrainians having electricity and keeps blowing up their power grid. Lots of European countries have donated replacement parts to Ukraine, which is cool and absolutely the right thing to do, however those spares also need replacing, so more pressure on getting power grid components

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317480#Comment_120317480

We also have housing crisis, I don't see why we should expect a housing development to be delayed to work around the fact a forecourt operator couldn't be bothered planning ahead when intending to install charging infrastructure. It's clear a different mechanism needs to be in place for speedier delivery of new electrical infrastructure such as battery storage, solar, wind, and charging infra. A joined up approach to delivering that would be in everyone's interest.

brownej

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318887#Comment_120318887

You keep saying the same thing about queue jumping. Which is a bit of a nonsense argument.

Nobody should be jumping any queues. ESBN should have the capacity and the capability to serve all of their customers. Housing estates give ESBN years of notice. We should not be using that as the standard. That you need to book a grid connection years in advance speaks volumes about the overall incompetence and capability of our network supplier and operator. If they are not capable of performing installs on the basis of demand without needing years of notice or a few brown envelopes then there is no hope to get anything done.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341497#Comment_120341497

In the very post that you quoted you'll see that I said we need a joined up approach to connecting electrical infrastructure that is required on different timelines that the current linear approach based on the longer timelines that are linked to more traditional planning processes. Until then it's a case of having a book of work and companies like Applegreen acting surprised when it turns out they needed to plan ahead to get a grid connection sorted. They don't have a right to be prioritised over other work because they weren't aware of market conditions.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341497#Comment_120341497

I mentioned before that there's reasons why it takes years, capacity changes need to be planned, planning permission might be needed and equipment needs to be obtained and installed, a lot of which has lead times of months

Not to mention that there's only so many engineers who are qualified to work on this stuff

Now could ESBN do better? Probably yes, they could hire on more people, but again it isn't exactly a qualification with a large pool of prospective employees or contractors. You'd probably have to train people up which often takes years and puts more work on existing staff

So it's unlikely that ESBN could double their workforce in the space of a few months

On top of that, it's not like they can get rid of half their staff by announcing it on Twitter, so if they're expanding they need to be confident there's a pipeline of work through that'll keep them busy for the next 5-10 years

Basically, yes they can do better, hopefully they will do better, but don't expect miracles