Student car - EV or ICE - Cost comparison

akasudonim

Hi, I'm comparing costs of running a 7 to 10yo electric and ice cars - my daughter in college with a 30km daily round trip.

I'm sure there's something I'm missing from below considerations, but would welcome views/comments. Cost & reliability being the main factors.

Plus I plan on changing mine or the OH's car to electric at some point over the coming months, so a home charger will be needed and preferred before the EV grants change..

Night rate electricy is my current charge 29c/kWh (BGE rate incl VAT), diesel roughtly €1.60/l.

There's not much in the difference for low mileage consumption, not considering yet the depreciation and servicing costs.

Am I missing anything obvious?

Redfox25

If its 30km a day, you might be ok to get by with granny charging for a while.

Charger install is closer to 1200 or more so 600 after the grant. Not sure if there are tolls on route?

the_amazing_raisin

A lot of people with EVs get night meters so they can charge overnight at cheaper rates. Cheapest night rate is 13.5c/kWh at the moment but it does come with a higher day rate

I think your range is a bit on the pessimistic side, I find it's better to go by consumption in kWh/100km

IIRC the Leaf is probably around 17.5kWh/100km year round average, or 0.175kWh/km which gives a cost per km of ~€0.05

Insurance will probably be about the same although your daughter might get a discount since the car is automatic and easier to drive

Maintenance costs should be minimal, it's basically just the service cost per year so best to ring around a few garages and just ask the price

Depreciation is a bit of a dice role, but second hand EVs are generally keeping their value pretty well at the moment

Tyres kinda depends on driving style but if you have a reasonably defensive style then a set of tyres should last longer. There's special tyres for EVs which give lower consumption, but tbh last time round I just put the cheap tyres on the Leaf and the difference was pretty minimal

A few secondary considerations to think about. EVs are generally a lot easier to drive than manual ICE, for someone relatively new to driving then it might make the whole experience a lot easier and less stressful. There's no gears or clutch to think about and hill starts are a matter of just selection D and going

They do have a lot of acceleration at low speeds, so depending on her driving style you might want to tell her to go easy on the accelerator pedal 😁

There's also a few limitations to consider, mainly that the car is limited on range, so she won't be taking her friends on road trips up and down the west coast. Depending on your opinion of her friends, this might also be an advantage

The other thing to be aware is that people who go electric tend to enjoy the driving experience and not want to go back. So be prepared for a lot of complaining if she's ever forced to drive one of the ICE cars in the household 😂

Gumbo

You have the leaf battery size in the lower row. Power is 110bhp.

Will you get 40 mpg in the focus for the drive that’s done?

Im not following the comparison table great tbh

Post up links to the actual cars your looking at.

Wheres your cost to fill the focus?

Wall Charger cost is €600 will be after the grant.

akasudonim

Appreciate the replies lads!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313291#Comment_120313291

Forgot about the benefit of the tolls for EV too! Have an electrician in the family so was hoping the install would be closer to the 600, but I expect needs a registered installer, so yeah more than budgeted.

@the_amazing_raisin - jeez my night rate is x2 that you quoted - who is that for 13.5c/kWh? Was erring on the side of caution considering the range, but they're older models with degraded batteries, so perhaps somewhere between the 5c and 9.6c /km might be more reasonable.

All of your other points really good - she's a good driver, good awareness, and no problem with clutch/manual etc., but also now used to a 2.0 diesel Audi, so am already saying easy on the right foot😲

And when suggested the EV, the limited range was the first concern, but offset by the costs of plugging in at home for free versus paying for diesel herself - so for further thought! Beggers and choosers come to mind if reverting to an ICE from an EV! 😁 though I'll likely have one of the other cars an EV before the summer's out - not sure about the user of a new M3 or MY though, if I go down that route!

Will toss it around for a while more - thanks for the feedback!

akasudonim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313447#Comment_120313447

Yeah the 40mpg on the Focus might be ambitious considering it's all short trips, barely warms up.

I picked two lower cost examples for comparison, not necessarily chosing these specifically.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-2016-30-kwh/32931978

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/ford-focus-2015-1-6-diesel/33459341

Cost to fill the diesel tank is not relevant I think (actually some of the table is probably irrelevant but just info from brain dump) - diesl cost per km is based on 40mpg = 7.06l/100km, x €1.60/l = €11.30/100km or 11c/km. At maybe a more realistic 35mpg or 8.07l/100km that becomes 13c/km - versus maybe 7c/km in the Leaf (between my calculated 9c and @the_amazing_raisin ~5c), so nearly half the cost of diesel!

The consumption calcs might actually (for the lower milage used) be less of an issue - depreciation and maintenance migh tbe the bigger factors, and electricity costs decreasing where diesel will likely increase... but who knows!

Is it more likely to get a nasty reapir bill with a focus on 220km than a Leaf on same mileage?

waterwelly

We need to assume a divergence of electricity and diesel / petrol prices from here. It's pretty much nailed on at this point with duty increasing and the government telling the state owned electricity companies to get on with cutting prices.

My guess would be electricity to go below €0.3 (day) and €0.15 (night) over the next 12 months and diesel / petrol to average €1.80-€2.00 a litre.

kanuseeme

Don't get a leaf, a young woman needs a dependable car, not some rejection of the entire EV world,

Get a hybrid or a phev , I sold my 2015 Prius phev for 13k last year. It would do 20km on battery. 50 mpg after that. Your 30km trip would would only use 5liters a week.

Outlander are around 13.5 k, and would probably do the 30 in nice weather. 40mpg on petrol.

cnocbui

Well at 30k per day, you should be looking at petrol, rather than high pollution diesel.

Remembering from my student days where it was my own money that funded my car and petrol, the capital cost of the car was far more important than marginal issues of running costs. Sure there were cars that higher MPG than what I had, but I wouldn't able to afford them for almost another decade.

Redfox25

From what i read, Leafs are pretty reliable, the main snag is when you try long distance driving in a car that won't fast charge.

The 30km round trip should be well doable and cheap to run too.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313778#Comment_120313778

Why buy the less efficient outlander though?

The lead is very reliable and excellent spec.

Redfox25

The leaf even comes with a free home charger, if your buddy is a spark then you might get away with a cheap install (not sure you will get the grant though as its a second hand charger).

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313945#Comment_120313945

Yes you’ll get the grant alright. But he will need the 2 Certs and an invoice from his buddy over the value of €600.

I’ve done it a few times now ;)

If you do it right you can have an install for free (nett if grant).

akasudonim

I thought the Leafs were relatively reliable? And the service costs I'd expect to be less than the diesel - or petrol too perhaps.

For this use case I'm leaning to electric, especially if the electircity per unit price decreases are likely - though I definately need to look at my current night rate! But also good point re petrol vs the diesel - though at that age profile / price bracket I think there's a lot more diesel choice. The phev's @kanuseeme good suggestions, but more than I want to spend now - and on low mileage it would not pay back in savings.

Longer trips (seldom needed) then I'll add her to my insurance, perhaps full time, and I'd be on hers - so that might work out fine actually.

90% of the trips made by 4 drivers in the house are <50km /day. Yet evryone has range anxiety. Electric perhaps makes most sense - recommendations other than a Leaf?

Also much appreciate the comments and views!

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314092#Comment_120314092

They are in mY experience.

Service is every 2 years and usually costs about €150 from Nissan but there’s not alot in it if out of warranty.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313869#Comment_120313869

Well I got a 2016 Leaf24 second hand in 2018. My wife still has it after I traded up for the ID.4

Nothing has ever gone wrong with it except for a little plastic cover falling off the rear wiper. Not exactly a catastrophic design flaw I'd say

I agree it's main issue is long journeys, it has short range and the charging isn't great and it uses a connector which isn't well supported anymore

As a car it's exactly what it says on the tin, a local runabout that's easy to drive and cheap to run. Just don't try to do Dublin to Cork in it

zg3409

Electric makes more sense, on terms of total cost of ownership. A granny cable to a household socket will be plenty to top up car each night.

As said they are easier to drive and nippy at low speeds. Just make sure you don't overpay for the car and get one with relatively low mileage.

Fuel savings are probably 50% compared to petrol as a rough guess. The actual cost to refuel both cars would be relatively little.

Casati

What type of drive is commute - big difference if motorway or main road or Dublin City centre at rush hour?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314473#Comment_120314473

Does it make much difference if it's 30km? Unless you're doing 160km/h on the motorway then the consumption isn't likely to be enough to cause any problems

If it was Dublin City traffic then a car would be the last option I'd consider, bike or bus would be much quicker

akasudonim

An almost equal amount of back roads ~60/70 kph, main road 100kph and city at 50kph. No motorway speeds.

Tolls too which the EV will help. The more i look at it the more suitable the EV is!

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314538#Comment_120314538

I misread the price, I would recommend a Toyota Prius or similar, for some reason I thought you had 12000 euro as the purchase price, If you get the leaf it's going to require planning and foresight, a ton of it, I know I would not have any of mine driving it other than for the stated 30km, youngins being youngins I could not trust them nor do I blame them for wanting to go somewhere beyond its range, and if they do then fast charger prices are more expensive than petrol.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314659#Comment_120314659

Planning and foresight to drive 30km. Are we reading the same thread here?

The 30 kWh leaf will do 100km all day long. My old 24 kWh one done 100km at 100km/h in winter in the M1.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314696#Comment_120314696

You know well enough what I mean. no need to be a kcid.

akasudonim

Ah yeah shouldn't need planning.. a habit to plug it in every evening wouldn't be too hard, with a granny cable on a timer using the night rate ... but @kanuseeme i can also see the midnight call arriving from 50km away and no juice left! Will happen with kids but she's a sensible one do not too worried

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314791#Comment_120314791

Fair enough, best of luck.

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314538#Comment_120314538

Focus should be returning about 5.0l per 100km with that commute but I wouldn't recommend a diesel for it as you could run into DPF issues. EV tolls are gone in June so ignore that but a used Leaf sounds like a reasonable option either way

loopymum

As it happens, i have a a 2015 high mieage leaf

180kms. It's going great. My 17 year old is hoping I will hang on to it so he can use it for school next year & to go to study afterschool once he passes his test. He is thrilled at the thought of it as I would cover most of the cost of charging.

I've had it almost 3.5yrs

It's a great yoke for short trips. I havent spent much on it. New set of tyres. No need to get it serviced as nothing needs doing. It's out of warranty long go. It's getting a few rattles so will get those checked out

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313498#Comment_120313498

Forgot to mention, the Energia EV plan is the one with the 13.5c night rate. The day rate is something like 44c, so do your sums carefully to see if it's worth it

If she has the option to use one of the other cars for longer journeys then I'd say the Leaf is a no brainer

In fact she might find the Leaf getting "borrowed" at weekends to do the weekly shopping and general runabouts because it's cheap to run 😁

And as difficult as it can be to see someone drive off in your expensive Audi (or Telsa) they do generally have much better safety systems for long trips.

For example with my ID.4 I did a couple of long motorway drives in the UK a few months ago. I just switched the Travel Assist (adaptive cruise control and lane following) on and the car drove itself for around 90% of the journey.

After 10 hours or so of driving and charging stops I was pretty wrecked, but without the Travel Assist I'd probably have managed only half of that.

For someone relatively new to driving who might be getting distracted by her friends singing loudly in the back then it could be a literal lifesaver

slave1

The Leaf is extremely reliable, you also need to factor that the Leaf will become the default car of choice 24/7 for all local journeys in the evenings, weekends and non-college days and provide further savings

the_amazing_raisin

One of the other things about the Leaf is that it's one of the few EVs that actually tells you the battery health

The thin ribbon of bars to the right of the range bars is the battery health. The max is 12 bars, the top bar is worth something like 13% of battery health and each one after is worth ~8% I think

the_amazing_raisin

Here's a funny thought, my eldest will be old enough to drive in around 12 years or so.

What will the equivalent EV banger be by then? A second generation ID.3 or Model 3, or maybe an Ariya or BZ4X?

It's pretty weird to think that cars with a touchscreen, heated seats and steering wheel, android auto and 200+bhp will be considered bangers

akasudonim

@loopymum smart kid! If learning to drive the Aviva driving school lessons for 6 months is good value - I've used it for all mine and found it's a really good service and good value.

Thanks @slave1 and @the_amazing_raisin - that you both consdier the Leaf may become default is really interesting - I had originally wondered if it was worth looking at financing a new MG4 as a general runabout. My OH puts about €250 pm diesel into a Sharan - almost all short local trips - good saving there I suspect, and really good point re newer better safety on modern options.

Also looking this and a few other threads over the last few days I really need to review utility supplier and consumption - no EV's and we're consuming about 15k kVA pa - which is a lot!

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120313778#Comment_120313778

Terrible advice. The Leaf is an extremely reliable car. Those built from late 2013 are super reliable. Take it from someone who recently owned a 2012 model and who still owns a 2014 model....you wont go wrong based on the needs you posted here OP.

The Prius won't give 20km on battery. The tiny battery will be degraded and performs very poorly in cold weather. Also it clai s 50mpg, but we all know that's horsesh1t.

I like the outlander PHEV but it too will struggle to top 20km on battery in any weather. The older ones are horrible to drive and are horrendously inefficient. I did a massive amount of research before deciding against one and went for the Leaf. So glad I did.

fits

The model3 will be like Toyota corollas are now.

akasudonim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315760#Comment_120315760

Thanks for this - I was wondering about the bars mentioned in posts re battery health!

The years pass by really quickly - I think with the current exponential rate of change we'll get to a point sooner that everyone realises (within the 12 yrs!) where we'll have to pay a premium to drive ourselves - I know tesla continue the FSD route, but more than them developing the multi-vehicle comms solutions that will take control - once insurers see the increased safety by us not driving, then legislation will follow ... just my view - 10 years in tech is a long time, especially considering now how pervasive AI has become

Anyhow, if I imagine mtself at 17yo with my first banger being a 15 yo Tesla M3 or equiv - with the power available - jeez!

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315834#Comment_120315834

That’s the point and is what Tesla set out to do.

liamog

If you do buy the Leaf it's worth knowing that the public charging network for CHAdeMO is effectively reaching end of life. Its fine for what is there now but will see very limited expansion and in some cases a reduction in the available chargers. Its not a huge problem for your described use case but its something people should be aware of before purchase.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316110#Comment_120316110

I know. Why is everyone so defensive about tesla on here?

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315834#Comment_120315834

Shhh! Wash your mouth out...😁

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316356#Comment_120316356

Maybe because you posted it out of context in a thread about a Nissan Leaf.

Nobody else mentioned Tesla other than you.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316605#Comment_120316605

I fail to see what was so bad about what he said, on the other hand its sometimes good to look at things out of context, take a 30 km round trip in a leaf, every one knows it can do it, its after that 30 km trip is where the problem lies, friends need picking up, boyfriend needs keeping an eye on etc.

I was going to leave it when the OP said he knows he can expect a phone call when she is stuck 50 km away, its his choice, I would not recommend that car to any one other than for local run arounds and they know what's involved.

I do feel strongly that giving a young woman a limited range car is a bad idea and will end up at the minimum asking for a phone call, all for the sake of a few euro a day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120315827#Comment_120315827

Any of your research actually involve owning driving those cars? ok say they do not get the range, what is the worse that can happen? A few litres of fuel extra a week, I would prefer to be safe and sound in the place where I want to go, not at the back of some dark petrol station waiting 30 minutes to charge.

I misread his budget, I was using my phone, for the OP's budget I would recommend any hybrid, again from experience of driving 2 hybrids, 50 mpg is standard.

Every one missed the 250 euro monthly spend on fuel, for the OP get yourself an EV, get your daughter anything but a leaf, they had crap range 10 years ago and they are worse now.

slave1

You are wholly incorrect on crap range, it’s about fit for purpose and a Leaf 24 or 30 fits the bill

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316791#Comment_120316791

I fail to see where anyone said what he said was bad 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

I really think you’re not reading the posts correctly on your phone now.

130km car is a low range car now yeah? Be different if they were traveling the country or commuting but doing a 30km trip a day leaves ALOT of spare battery for the day.

On the other hand to suggest a large inefficient SUV for a 30km daily trek is laughable. It’s not a PHEV thing, I’m driving a 530e PHEV at the moment.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316944#Comment_120316944

LOL, what is good range?

Fit for your purpose is considerably different from most peoples, I cannot be sure but did your wife end up charging her car through the window of a petrol station?

If that's not true here is one you should remember, "so herself needed a charge at Castlebellingham N at the weekend, fast charger would not play ball, phoned ecars and told it was the car's fault (Kona) and that that can car can no longer take a fast charge. Obvious panic ensued, so directed her off to Dundalk where she had to queue for the fast charger and it charged fine at that unit."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089258/#Comment_120089258

A considerably better car by the way .

Castlebellingham to dundalk is 11 km, what spare % do you think a leaf will have ?

I will repeat,

"Every one missed the 250 euro monthly spend on fuel, for the OP get yourself an EV, get your daughter anything but a leaf, they had crap range 10 years ago and they are worse now"

I will copy the important bit " Every one missed the 250 euro monthly spend on fuel, for the OP get yourself an EV"

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317032#Comment_120317032

He said M3 will be as numerous as corollas are now, be as reliable as a Toyota, that will prove itself in its own time.

Funny, Its 65 km range at best, unless you don't want to come back, assuming 130 km to start with,

its a young woman who is starting her own life and you assume that a 30 km daily trip is enough for her, ok say it is you have 90 left over, is 45 km now a better position to be in.

I misread the budget, even so its not a bad choice, 30 km is ideal territory for a phev, as you know driving a phev, even driving 25 km on battery would cost about 3 euro in petrol a week and no need to worry about anything.

Efficiency would be far better than a focus, and not a consideration when safety is at question.

I am going to put petrol in my phev, I have 30 km petrol range left after last night, a charge will bring me up to 60km, am I going to go another week or two without petrol?, NO, because anything can happen and I will not take the chance on it for a few euros.

See ya.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316791#Comment_120316791

Yes. I test drove a new Outlander PHEV in 2016/17. Battery fully charged and it was dead at 22km. I used Google Maps to calculate the electric range.

The Prius I never drove, but the ranges are very well known and documented on every Toyota and EV related forum.

The Leaf. I Owned a 2012 Leaf for 5 years and now my FIL drives it. GOM averages 100, but realistically gets 70km. Not bad for the worst battery chemistry in any EV (pre 2014).

I have a 2014 Leaf 6 years and it still has plenty of range. My son uses it for college and to get to work daily. Myself and Wife use it regularly and it's a fantastic car, perfect for what the OP asked for.

Maybe a Leaf won't suit the time the OP daughter has to drive 600km in a day, but there are trade-offs with everything.

A Renault Zoe is another potentially good option.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317627#Comment_120317627

Thank you for your honesty.

only trade off with a phev, is you might put some more petrol in it.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317852#Comment_120317852

And oil, and coolant, and all the maintenance and costs that go with it...plus the higher tax and greater chance that something will go wrong. I would quicker recommend a full petrol vehicle, as the real life range of an older PHEV is simply not going to be anywhere near the original claimed range. I see very few use cases where a PHEV would be better than a low range BEV. I don't think the OP fits that narrow range.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314878#Comment_120314878

Tolls discount may be not gone in June. It will probably be extended but it's not 100% confirmed. It will be reviewed each year.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317929#Comment_120317929

Your grasping now, Tax is 50 euro more a year, I serviced my 2017 330e for 200 euro, greater chance of something going wrong, I have tried to get that across for 2 pages now, but its fine as long she does not drive a hybrid.

70 km leaf is a good alternative FFS. its just sad the excuses people here will come up with.

I have made my opinion known, If no one see's a problem then that's ok, sure as hell it will not be me or mine.

akasudonim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317956#Comment_120317956

It would be great if the Gov gave people a chance to plan with an early indication of their plan, like the tolls changes or the change to the SEAI grants! Yes they've indicated changes, but specifics would be good ... That would mean they'd have a strategy though!

Lads it's a good robust discussion - I'd probably underestimated the security of the longer range a PHEV would provide, and that security is really important - but also that would carry an addtional cost in terms of servicing and maintenance. The Leaf (or equiv) for the daily commute and plugged in nightly would work for us - and take the audi when a longer trip is planned. Key word is needs planning!

But I think for the low mileage, if I were doing PHEV I might as well have a small petrol - not in a rush so will think a little more on it.

Re the Zoe, it looks a lot smaller than the Leaf. I'd prefer her in seomthing bigger, but I've never been in one so maybe bigger than it looks? Thanks