Irish Traveller culture to be promoted through school curriculum: Posted on BBC website!

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318918#Comment_120318918

Not to worry, that’s being pushed out to be replaced by progressive dogma ( trans issues, consent , climate change, privilege)

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319244#Comment_120319244

Fugue, surprised at your post, would have expected more balanced approach.

Niman stated some facts, which are replicated across the country: I will post some from my local paper later

You have then added meaning to those facts: these facts are made up, by you.

They are made up, and have no basis in fact.

Example: someone dies: fact

relatives are all sad/happy/whatever: all made up: the only fact is the death.

Rather than make up stuff about Niman, can you list 10 positive facts where travellers have made a positive contribution to the society they give in.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316826#Comment_120316826

could and possible which of course put a huge question mark over everything else in the article

More meaning making.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319431#Comment_120319431

Climate change is progressive dogma?

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316523#Comment_120316523

Yes they do speak this language. It's very common and known among the community. There have been a few attempts to record traveller stories, songs and history as it's dying off by the forced settlement through government policy.

I'm terms of the negative aspects of the culture rather than preventing travellers from getting jobs and education how about encouraging and helping them as much as possible to get a better start in life. There are specific programs I am aware of to help with preschool and parallel education of mothers. Many travellers work on building sites as labourers and earn an honest wage for hard work. However nearly 100% are discriminated against and find it nearly impossible to even be considered for any role causing institutional and generational problems of unemployment. We really need to take a different approach, sticking travellers into council houses and abandoning them to the dole is not progressive.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120318918#Comment_120318918

I find it bizarre that anyone would think that the Irish education system didn't involve propaganda. Nearly every single part of my schooling revolved around the catholic church. Even the Irish language wasn't taught as a spoken language but rather as a cultural thing. There was more focus on poetry and Peig rather than actually speaking it.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319467#Comment_120319467

of course, that’s not to say conservatives can’t believe climate change is happening but climate change activism is a key tenet of progressive thought and extends to using climate change as a tool to push for open borders as one example

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319471#Comment_120319471

Progressive policy is what has us where we are with travellers

decades of endless carrot and telling them every single issue that bedevils their community is the fault of the broader population

Quitelife

Towns with large traveller populations all seem to have large amounts of crime & the general population are living in fear like Longford, Ennis, Tralee, Mullingar , Thurles , Tipp Town, Abbeyfeale, Castleisland , Tuam, & many many more.

Those who are pushing these courses you will find are not living in these areas .

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319609#Comment_120319609

‘seem to’ being the operative words in your post there.

Dublin city and suburbs had the largest number of Irish Travellers with 5,089 persons. This was followed by Galway city and suburbs with 1,598 persons and Cork city and suburbs with 1,222.

Of the towns with 1,500 or more persons, Tuam had the highest number of Irish Travellers with 737 persons, followed by Longford with 730 persons.

Navan, Mullingar, Dundalk and Ballinasloe all had 500 or more Irish Travellers in 2016. 

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp8iter/p8iter/p8itd/

’Living in fear’? They’re not living in the middle of Iraq for goodness sake, they’re no more living in fear than anyone in Dublin City is living in fear. It’s also where there are plenty of organisations which support travellers are located, and there’s no courses being pushed. They’re proposals for a curriculum to be taught in schools at national level, so schools in those areas you mentioned would be delivering the same curriculum content as would be delivered in every school in Ireland.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319467#Comment_120319467

The people that want to pretend it isn't happening like to characterise it as such. Much like creationists like to pretend that evolution is progressive dogma.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319804#Comment_120319804

Much like the people who want to pretend that the traveller culture of today should be celebrated and ignore the overwhelming negatives for people that actually have to live surrounded by it (and for the travellers themselves ironically). Preaching at people from areas disconnected from the reality of it to make themselves feel righteous.

apache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120316582#Comment_120316582

That's a fact. Sure they even have their own wings.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319609#Comment_120319609

I grew up in a county where they had a massive presence, especially around the town. I knew literally all of the families, closer than I'd have liked to, and I'd honestly struggle to say anything good about any of them. In fact, I could easily link all of those families to numerous crimes by court reporting alone. The first time I was lectured about them was in college in Dublin by a middle class lecturer from Cork, who likely had no close dealings with them, yet was still happy to bleat on about how oppressed they were and how it was all our fault. It's something that's very hard to swallow for those of us who've seen the other side and experienced it up close. We're meant to accept that they are helpless victims, when all we've ever seen is them victimize others. It's completely out of sync with the reality that most of us know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319462#Comment_120319462

I was being ironic. 😊

Poking fun at one of the usual self righteous, aggressive comments about how observing actual behaviour is apparently hatred. And ignorance seemingly (when it's the exact opposite of ignorance).

There are huge problems in traveller society - and it's horrible for women and girls. Yes of course not all travellers are responsible, but saying that, doesn't magically wipe out the overwhelming issues that are there.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319962#Comment_120319962

Travellers have long been a trendy cause for middle class leftists , that the vast majority of middle Ireland have no time for travellers makes the cause even trendier

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319471#Comment_120319471

Two-way street. Aspects of traveller culture need to change. Like taking kids out of school extremely early, and insanely young marriage and parenthood (with too many children).

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320071#Comment_120320071

The apologising they do is almost funny. If they went to your average traveller family and started saying that stuff, they'd wouldn't be received well at all. The travellers would likely look on in disgust, because at the end of the day, no matter what you think of them, they are proud people who say sorry for nothing. And certainly wouldn't have any respect for people who'd sit and grovel and beg for acceptance.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320071#Comment_120320071

No they haven’t? It’s only in recent years they’ve gained any sort of attention from middle-class lefties who want to impose their own ideas on travellers, who for the most part want nothing to do with them.

It’s true that the vast majority of middle-class Ireland wants nothing to do with travellers, only for the drugs really, and the boxing, and the GAA, and and let’s not forget it was Micheál Martin who nominated Eileen Flynn to the Seanad -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileen_Flynn_(politician)

And Enda Kenny’s FG Government who recognised travellers as a distinct ethnic group in 2017 -

https://www.gov.ie/en/speech/d29014-statement-by-an-taoiseach-enda-kenny-td-on-the-recognition-of-travel/

And travellers have long had a sort of a Stockholm syndrome relationship with the Catholic Church which you’d struggle to associate with middle-class lefties! 😂

Nah, that’s just your own associate anything you don’t like with lefties, doesn’t matter that it isn’t reflected by reality at all.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320179#Comment_120320179

Saying what stuff? They’re in no doubt whatsoever that middle-class Ireland wants nothing to do with them. They’re not a proud people who say sorry for nothing either, there’s a few of ‘em just don’t give a fcuk, that’s not the same as being sorry for nothing, and it’s certainly not motivated by pride, it’s motivated by their own prejudices towards people who aren’t travellers.

This thread though is about a curriculum in Irish schools, where it’s not that parents withdraw their children early from school, it’s just as difficult to be a traveller child in school in the first place, and that’s if they can get in at all. There are numerous cases of traveller parents experiencing difficulties in enrolling their children in local schools -

https://www.thejournal.ie/boy-refused-place-at-dublin-school-2964383-Sep2016/

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320298#Comment_120320298

They’re not a proud people who say sorry for nothing either, there’s a few of ‘em just don’t give a fcuk, that’s not the same as being sorry for nothing, and it’s certainly not motivated by pride, it’s motivated by their own prejudices towards people who aren’t travellers.

They are incredibly proud people, it's delusional to say otherwise. If they lived with collective shame they'd change their ways, but they don't because they are largely proud of their culture.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320334#Comment_120320334

You just repeated what you said earlier, doesn’t make it any more true than it wasn’t the first time. It’s not true to say they’re a proud people, and I didn’t say they live with collective shame either. I said there were a few of them who just don’t give a fcuk, and the rest of them fall in line because they know the consequences if they don’t.

Proud people my arse, nothing more than your own romanticism.

They seem proud to me. And far more than "some" don't give a sh1t.

Quitelife

Return to my home town in County Limerick occassionally - last time i was there i got up early for a walk circa 7AM on a saturday morning, it was still half dark , met an elderly neighbour ( who worked all his life) cycling 2/3 miles to local shop to do his few messages- stopped talking to him and it turns out he goes shopping this early as he often had young travellers firing rocks at him if it was during the day or evening so to avoid this he gets up at 7AM to do his shopping - he gets home at 8AM and is stuck in his house for the rest of the day with locked doors for fear of the childrens fathers who broke into his house before - stuff like this is an example of why the law abiding population are jack sh%t sick of travellers & those that excuse/ignore their carry on.

The vunerable in rural Irish society these days are the Law Abiding!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320449#Comment_120320449

I have to ask then, proud in what sense?

Because it’s widely acknowledged they live in filth and squalor, there’s massive issues with criminality, drug abuse, poor education, poor health, alcoholism and sexual abuse. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist or a sociologist to figure out why they marry young and want to escape poverty, but they lack the education and skills to fit in with modern society and they don’t trust authorities like the Gardaí or Government.

The Big Fat Gypsy stuff is mostly English travellers, and that’s just for show.

MegamanBoo

I'm not at all blind to the fact there are problems with crime in the Traveler community.

But are they any worse than other sections of the community? How over represented are the homeless or long-term unemployed in the Irish prison system? Could it not just be that poorer groups worldwide tend to be over represented in prison statistics?

I'm not saying you can solely blame poverty, and there aren't plenty of people, traveler and settled, who should have been locked up a long-time ago. But has anybody here actually got something to show that there's something inherently criminal in traveler culture, other than making hateful generalizations?

As an aside, I don't know about the rest of the country, but I've never seen sulky racing as an especially traveler past-time down here in Limerick. There'd be plenty of settled people involved too.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320018#Comment_120320018

None of that though has to do with actually discussing the curriculum. The thread is just an excuse to talk about anything else about travelers but the curriculum.

A great big gay hate fest of a thread.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320636#Comment_120320636

But has anybody here actually got something to show that there's something inherently criminal in traveler culture, other than making hateful generalizations?

There’s nothing inherently criminal in traveller culture, as a culture. Among travellers though, and it’s similarly observed among other social groups which are not the predominant social group, they’re not so beholden to civil laws which govern society which they are excluded from. Essentially they form the view that they don’t want to be part of a society which would require them to change everything they value and wish to maintain, such as their identity, values, traditions and so on.

It’s basically a conflict between everything they’ve always known and been brought up in, and knowing if they try to escape it, they will never fit in with a society which despises them, and they’ll be ostracised from what they see as their own community at the same time.

Observed behaviour and patterns = hateful generalisations apparently, according to those who keep telling themselves that every minority should be immune to criticism, no matter what issues abound in their communities. And if treating women badly is one of those issues, suddenly feminism seems to be forgotten.

The response "It happens in settled communities too" is not a robust one. Nobody is denying it. The issue is proportion though. The proportion of crime and violence is simply much higher among travellers in comparison to their numbers.

Overheal

There’s so many threads for that behavior though. This is just about the school curriculum isn’t it, not these anecdotes (I have a few of my own with travelers).