Irish Traveller culture to be promoted through school curriculum: Posted on BBC website!

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365955#Comment_120365955

How are travellers a weaker group?

And what do you mean by asking the poster if they expect the to change?

Change from what, exactly?

All your posts on this thread are woolly and lacking any substance.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370670#Comment_120370670

Traveller's make up a tiny proportion of the population. They have little or no representation in positions of authority and many live in extreme poverty. That's pretty much what I mean by a weaker group.

The poster had stated they were fine with Travellers when they lived along the roads, travelling to fix tools. I'm asking is it expected they still live like this, which has a sad irony given the criminalisation of their traditional lifestyle.

What's woolly about my posts? Am I 'only asking', 'just stating', 'merely observing', because that would be woolly right?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370731#Comment_120370731

This is wholly untrue.

They have significant representation within the government actions, ngos and...well prison.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370751#Comment_120370751

I don't know what you mean by 'within the government actions'?

Do you know of senior civil servants that are Travellers? Judges? Political Consultants?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370787#Comment_120370787

You know exactly what I'm saying.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370792#Comment_120370792

I really don't sorry.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370795#Comment_120370795

Says a lot about you so.

Sandor Clegane

This stuff always makes me laugh...what are they gonna promote? how it's okay to systematically abuse animals? maybe how to race sulkies safely on motorways? or maybe how to steal everything that's not nailed down? maybe how to drop out of school early, how not to work, how to make life miserable for every tax payer in the country?...I mean these are only some of the vaulable life skills traveller culture has to offer.

About a year ago a Traveller lady spoke on Liveline complaining about how women are treated in their culture, how she, on her 16th birthday, was being pushed into a forced marriage with a man she had never met, and she mentioned about a lot of her female Traveller friends had the exact same lived experience. It didn’t fit the RTE-Government agenda and the topic was quickly silenced, not to be mentioned again.

If history and culture education content is to be created let these women speak and contribute to it. But of course that won’t happen, because in the axiom of wokeness Traveller rights supersede women’s rights.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370787#Comment_120370787

Disingenuous in the extreme.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320808#Comment_120320808

Teacher Owen Ward in Galway experienced this phenomenon when he tried to become the studious child and went on to third level to become a teacher. There wasn’t quite the support in his family or community, but he’s managed somehow to steer the best course he can to be acceptable to his own and mainstream culture, but not an easy path to take. Education needs to look attractive to Travellers, and I guess including their history and culture is part of of an attempt to do that.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370838#Comment_120370838

I don't know that these issues are typically dealt with at primary school level.

Also, given that such awful practises exist in many other cultures, I don't see the value in making education around them Traveller specific.

I shared some writings earlier from a Traveller writer who suggested Traveller women are less likely to report, and less empowered to challenge, such abuses because of their marginalized position.

I wholly support any education practices that challenge abuse of women. So as not to be counterproductive, I'd suggest they should look at the many ways women can be abused and mistreated across cultures, with our own settled culture being no less culpable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370927#Comment_120370927

Arranged marriages are not commonplace in mainstream indigenous Irish culture outside Traveller culture, and indeed not commonplace among people of other ethnicities living in Ireland. In case you indulge in more whataboutery, which you will do as is your privilege in a discussion, we are talking here about education around culture in Ireland in an Ireland-focussed part of the syllabus,

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370838#Comment_120370838

Fair play to this woman, and yes, this male-dominated lifestyle / culture is not helpful.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370890#Comment_120370890

Fair play to Owen Ward, but his experience suggests that we should not promote a lifestyle / culture that prevented him from progressing.

So maybe teach about travellers, making sure to include these negative/backward aspects?

I often think that by 2020 travellers still haven't caught up with my grandmother in 1960, who really appreciated the value of education for their children.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370927#Comment_120370927

No.1 - they shouldn't be dealt with in primary school. Moral code should be driven by one's close family. Not the school.

No.2 - again parents. They marginalise themselves. I don't like people who blame others. Take responsibility. No chance.

No.3 - across cultures. And I use culture in this particular instance with an amused look on my face. Abusing women, ney girls is not a fault of the "culture"? No responsibility? Families shouldn't intervene?

But we should? Explain please?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370990#Comment_120370990

Woah there, I don't know where to start with that... Well for a start arranged marriages are still quite common in some South Asian cultures and I'd hazard a guess that Asian ethnic groups such as these might actually be more populous than Travellers in Ireland currently.

That's not for a second to defend the practice, or engage in whataboutary, just to highlight the danger in linking education around abusive practices to a specific culture or ethnic group.

When people here continuously reference incarceration rates amongst Travellers, is it not valid to look at this as a worldwide phenomenon? That's not whataboutary, it's bringing context.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371123#Comment_120371123

What is your point exactly? There are many cultures that are patriarchal and misogynistic, and which treat women and girls as chattel, we all know that. Traveller culture is one such culture. What has this got to do with anyone else? You're waffling and obfuscating. If Traveller girls are being married off and used as brood mares when they're underage, it's something we need to tackle and acknowledge as a Traveller issue in Ireland. We owe it to those girls and women. It's people like you who let them down with the "ah shure it's their culture and besides, it's not just them" nonsense.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371336#Comment_120371336

You've completely misunderstood me.

Terrible practices such as these are entirely wrong in any culture, including our own.

My point is they shouldn't be used to portray a particular culture as inferior or lesser.

The notion that one culture can be deemed to be lessor or inferior is wrong in and of itself.

Using practices like this to derogate a culture, only serves to make it more difficult for those within that group that don't practice them, and more difficult for them to be challenged from within that culture.

blackbox

I've read through this thread and I still have no idea what would be included in the syllabus.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371367#Comment_120371367

A culture which treats women and girls as inferior and less than human IS an inferior culture. I don't care what race or religion or nationality the proponents of that culture are. People as individuals are all equal from birth. But all cultures are NOT equal, and refusing to acknowledge this has led us into the mess we're in today. Why can't you see that? I am sick of liberal left-leaning people abandoning women and girls to these practices because they're afraid to offend or be called racists or whatever. It is cowardly and dishonest.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371367#Comment_120371367

It's not mine.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371481#Comment_120371481

And what do you propose doing with these 'inferior' cultures?

And on what basis have you concluded we treat women and girls any better?

I very much doubt women and girls are being trafficked to this country, and other Western countries, to the extent they are, to meet to the needs of Traveller men.

I doubt so many women and girls find themselves disproportionately in sweat shops and forced labour because of Travellers needs for fast fashion and consumer products.

Last I checked it wasn't Travellers opposed to regulation of violent pornography and hate speech, so that girls, and boys for that matter, wouldn't be so readily and dangerously exposed to it online.

You seem fine with abandoning women and girls to these practices, just so long as you've got the minority groups to portray as some simplistic, one-dimensional 'bad guys'. Is that how it works?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371547#Comment_120371547

Hold on a second! You doubt women are being trafficked to this country? The extent? One is too many!

Explain yourself please. I'm giving yourself the benefit of the doubt on poor sentence construction.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371617#Comment_120371617

Sadly they are being trafficked and it's horrific. What I'm saying is that it's very much likely to be demand from settled men that's driving the practice.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371547#Comment_120371547

What I propose to do is to not tolerate misogynistic practices or make allowances for them under the banner of "ah shure it's their culture", which DOES happen all the time. I have personally seen a blind eye being turned to underage Traveller girls being taken out of school and married off to a relative. The law doesn't allow underage marriages, but they continue with the practice regardless as there's always a priest who'll take a backhander and "marry" them, and people look the other way because they're terrified of being prosecuted under equality laws. Or terrified of Travellers themselves. Look at Margaret Cash. Not a very likeable character, but I felt very sorry for her having been married off at fifteen and seven kids by her mid-twenties, what kind of life is that? What chance did she have? The rest of your post is just more whataboutery. I am also against trafficking, prostitution and slave labour but your assertion that it's only "settled" people who sexually exploit women or buy clothes made in sweatshops is bizarre, to say the least.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372032#Comment_120372032

It didn't take long for you to start putting words in my mouth.

I didn't for a moment imply or suggest it's only settled men engaging in these practices.

But given the demographics I think it's fair to say it's predominantly settled men driving the demand for these practices. I also wouldn't know of any Traveller CEOs signing contracts to outsource manafacturing to where forced female labour is widespread.

Ultimately we're all responsible for our actions and should be held to account. I'm not making excuses for anyone.

What I am doing is pointing to the fallacy and danger of comparing cultures to denote one as criminal and inferior.

And challenging that is not 'whataboutary', you're the one bringing this hate-filled notion of cultural inferiority to the table.

But let me guess, you're not a racist right? You just happen to be writing about the awful practises commited by some Traveller men, while conveniently ignoring the similar awful practises of some men in your own culture.

Lewis_Benson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371470#Comment_120371470

https://youtube.com/shorts/DwsF8KQWovI?feature=share

Grabbing.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372307#Comment_120372307

Well of course it's mostly settled men engaging in these practices in Ireland, they make up the vast majority of the population. Just because Traveller men are not CEOs signing off on things doesn't mean they aren't part of the globalised chain of exploitation in the clothing industry, the sex trade, etc. etc, they are consumers as much as the rest of us. What about the recent cases of Travellers engaging in actual, direct human slavery like two stories below? Are such practices common among settled Irish people?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-41241049

https://www.newstalk.com/news/irish-travellers-who-forced-men-into-slave-labout-sentenced-today-738691

You are going round and round in circles. I do see what you're saying, I know that Travellers have suffered discrimination and prejudice in the past, and that it's wrong to attribute negative traits to an entire group of people. But the statistics speak for themselves. It is not "hate-filled" to point out that they are as a group, up to their necks in violence, criminality and ways of life that negatively affect them and their ability to function in mainstream society.

You are the one who first used the word "inferior" by the way, when you said that it's wrong to treat any culture as inferior to another. I then made the distinction between people and culture. Travellers are not inferior people but the way many of them live is inferior, especially the girls and women. And I don't ignore the similar awful practices of men in my own culture, that's quite a leap. You don't know anything about me or my line of work. I can tell you that Traveller women are very over-represented in domestic violence shelters and services, it is absolutely accepted in "their culture" that men beat women and control them. Do you think that's common or acceptable in mainstream culture? Or if I were to pull my 16 year old daughter out of school to marry her cousin, do you think I would get away with that?

I do feel like I'm banging my head off a brick wall here, so I'll leave it.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372416#Comment_120372416

I was the first to use the term inferior but it's an ideology bandied around a lot here, and a view you accept is your own.

I don't believe for a minute that violence to women is accepted in Traveller culture. It might well be accepted by some in that community, perhaps more so than the settled community, but there are plenty of Travellers trying to combat it and challenge it. A task made far more difficult by us ignorantly classifying their culture as inherently criminal and violent.

Yes Travellers make up a greater proportion of the prison population but this is a common worldwide phenomenon for ethnic minorities, https://www.penalreform.org/global-prison-trends-2022/ethnic-minorities/ For me the likely explanation for this is not that there is something wrong with these cultures, only that those people are more likely to be unemployed, leave school early and face addiction. All known factors in increased incarceration within the settled community.

I don't believe Traveller men treat women on the whole any better or worse than the settled community. It might well be that their mistreatment manifests differently, but I couldn't say they are any more or less culpable.

While Travellers play a role in a global economy which forces women to unpaid or subsistence labour, and have been directly involved in isolated cases of human trafficking, I have to argue these practices are predominantly driven by settled people. Traveller's simply don't have the economic wherewithal or representations in positions of power to be influencing these practices.

While domestic violence does seem to occur more often in the Traveller community, I would again question the degree to which this is related to Travellers over representation as unemployed, early school leavers and suffering with drug problems.

That is not to say at all that Travellers have diminished responsibility when they commit these crimes, only that I believe it harmful to label them as Traveller problems. I see an awful lot of court reports on horrific domestic abuse where, and I don't know if this is a growing trend, based on the the details given, it would appear the perpetrator is from the settled community. If it is the case that domestic abuse is on the rise in Ireland, it serves nobody to treat it as the product of some particular 'inferior' cultures.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372310#Comment_120372310

I think most parents would object to that kind of 'culture' being shown to their children in school. I could see a lot of empty classrooms when that would be shown. I's neanderthal behaviour.

I highly recommend watching Big Fat Gypsy Weddings on I think Channel 4. I know its filmed in the UK, but many of the people that feature are relatives of Irish travellers, and some identify as Irish travellers them selves. The married by 17-18 is a common occurance in the program, and the treatment of women/girls really is an eye opener.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373151#Comment_120373151

And all done on the dole.

Lewis_Benson

Great culture.

NewbridgeIR

Hopefully this video will be preserved for future generations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUUaAj-xsGk

maude6868

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375527#Comment_120375527

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375527#Comment_120375527

A listening comprehension for the exam on Traveller Culture paper.

MegamanBoo

Nice video here, Traveller women speaking about their culture and experiences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Iktpfq68I

MegamanBoo

Here's another one from the MacDonagh sisters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ag0ncE9Zc

According to them the 'grabbing' thing is a myth. It's something Traveller kids used to play, reminds me of 'catch and kiss' which we used to play in primary school. Completely inappropriate now, but certainly a game played by settled kids in the 80's.

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364885#Comment_120364885

I find the above, and some of your other responses to be really strange. I have friends, relatives, and colleagues from various different cultures around the world, and we discuss our cultures regularly. I have travelled all over the world, and have never come across anyone, anywhere, who considered questions about their culture to be bullying or racism. I think asking what, exactly, Traveller culture consists of is a fair and pertinent question, considering it is to be thought in schools - if asking what their culture is, is a racist question, then how is a curriculum going to be devised?

I can, in a couple of sentences give a brief outline of Irish culture, Muslim culture, Sami culture, Native American culture etc. I cannot do the same for Traveller culture - is that me, or, as I suspect, is it because the question cannot be easily answered?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379613#Comment_120379613

For me I can't give a couple of sentences outline of any culture, and I'm pretty sure I've stated along those lines earlier.

I just don't think culture can be that easily defined, if I try I think it tends towards generalization and stereotype.

I think it's especially dangerous to do so for the purpose of comparing cultures, as was the context here.

If you asked me to write a curriculum on my own 'Irish settled' culture I could give some perspectives or viewpoints. I wouldn't try to conclusively define the culture, or have these examples be used to judge it or others.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379024#Comment_120379024

I don’t believe them.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379613#Comment_120379613

Also, when you start having these friendly chats with your friends and relatives, I'm guessing they don't start with those people telling you you're culture is criminal, backward, violent?

It does put things in a different context.

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379717#Comment_120379717

Einstein said, “If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

I think that applies very well in this case.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379825#Comment_120379825

So you understand Sami and Native American culture that well do you?

MegamanBoo

Also, I didn't call anyone a racist or bully for asking me to define Traveller culture.

They're racists and bullies because of the things they said about Travellers. Then they asked me to prove these things wrong with examples.

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379848#Comment_120379848

Well enough to give a few lines on elements of their culture yes.

Most educated people could list a few lines on elements of any culture they are aware of. Any culture except Traveller culture that is.

Strange that.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379861#Comment_120379861

This is what you "progressives" like to call "victim blaming". Many of the people you're calling bullies have been bullied by Travellers, yet in your mind, somehow, the Travellers are the real victims. I've known many Travellers better than you ever will; I've been in their homes, I've seen their wars, and I've experienced it all as closely as you could. It's very clearly you haven't had the same experience, yet you're calling all of those who have names. You're literally speaking from a position of utter ignorance, acting as an authority on a topic that you've zero right to. You need to lived it before you can speak on it, and you've clearly never lived it.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379866#Comment_120379866

I don't think so.

It's the very reason we have the concepts of stereotype and generalization.

Anyone, educated or not, can give you a few lines about a culture. The problem is those few lines will be generalizations and stereotypes.

As a settled Irish person mostly when I meet people abroad they'll have an idea of us along the lines of a rural culture, very religious, lots of drinking, diddly eye music etc.

Those are often 'educated' people.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379901#Comment_120379901

So nobody knows Travellers as well as you?

Here's an interesting article on Traveller's in Rathkeale. What you might find of interest here is the settle people interviewed speaking about how peaceful and quiet they find the town, and how most businesses there now welcome Travellers.

Listening to the likes of yourself, you'd expect it to be a warzone.

Please explain?

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379983#Comment_120379983

Most elements of culture are, by definition, stereotypes.

Ireland is, or at least was until recently, a predominately rural culture. We also had, until recently one of the largest church-going populations in Europe. Ireland has a culture of drinking - our pubs (or a version of them), Guinness, and our whiskeys are famous all over the world. Our "diddly eye music" as you call it (traditional music to most of us) is equally world famous, and rightly so.

Germans are stereotyped as efficient - and efficiency is a strong element of German culture. Big Italian families, arsty French people, etc. are all stereotypes based on culture, that, to various degrees, accurately reflects elements of that culture.

Of course you could put all this to bed by listing some elements of Traveller culture, like several posters have asked you already.