Potential for €10 congestion charge, parking increases of 400% and a 20kmh reduction in speed limits

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563244#Comment_120563244

A bit disingenuous use of statistics by the RSA. 13% increase when compared to a year when there was much reduced traffic for a large part of the year.

If a more honest comparison is made with the 2019 figures there has been very little if any change.

Misleading the public doesn't do the RSA any favours.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569050#Comment_120569050

Yet, pretty much every other city in Europe of the scale of Dublin can manage to do something somewhat metro-like.

I mean, we're not going to need something on the scale of London or Paris, but we should be at least aiming for something equivalent to Lyon or Amsterdam, or even Bordeaux would be significantly more than what we have now.

I don't really see what the unique problems Dublin seems to think it has are, other than no local government.

We're not planning adequately at all. The problems are only going to get worse, because unless the economy collapses entirely the cities are going to keep growing.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568974#Comment_120568974

I'd have to disagree with you on this one, Buses are to slow. Again, they are stuck in crazy suburban traffic, have routes that go into every housing estate, stop every 500 yards

Buses are grand for like 10 min journeys, Say for example Kimmage to Rathmines, or Donneybrook to Dundrum. Journeys such as Ballyboden to City centre are not at all suitable.

Urban segregated rail is pretty much proven at this point to be the most effective way to move people around.

If you ban cars from town, the junkies will take over in a matter weeks (remember lock down?)

It's an unusual problem, we know now that the money is there for a project like this, but there is something stopping it from starting.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569133#Comment_120569133

No reason why Buses can't have bus only roads extending all over the greater Dublin/Cork/Galway area...they have them in the Netherlands extending out from residential to commercial estates...

I think larger mass transit such as rail works great for high density Cities and towns which we just don't have in Ireland...

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569110#Comment_120569110

Many of these cities were bombed during WW2 and completely rebuilt, most were designed with wide large roads in the 60's and 70's before being re-designed for mass transit, whereas in Dublin it's basically built on top of a medieval city, so like I said I'm sure it can be done but will take decades, cost 10's of billions and the level of disruption to the city will close many businesses and exclude all traffic during it's construction..

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569133#Comment_120569133

The biggest delay to buses are the private cars that frequently abuse bus lanes and the vans and trucks that frequently use bus lanes as loading bays.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569066#Comment_120569066

There were more drivers killed in 2021 than 2022, despite your ‘much reduced traffic’.

The increase in deaths of older road users in particular in 2022 should not be ignored.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568982#Comment_120568982

Who mentioned anything about banning cars?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569241#Comment_120569241

Some cities were - they’re mostly in central and Eastern Europe though. I mean if you look at Brussels, Rotterdam or some of those cities that were very badly hit in the Benelux - there was major rebuilding done, obviously many German cities were flattened, but plenty got away with relatively superficial damage and were absolutely not completely rebuilt or were quite painstakingly reconstructed without changing their layouts much.

If you look at most French cities, they’re as or a lot more historic than Dublin and most Spanish cities have extremely old centres, yet have metros. They’re just planned better.

Cities like Amsterdam were damaged but they weren’t rebuilt with wide avenues or any of that. The metro was threaded underneath and the trans are woven into the streets.

If anything, Dublin actually looks like it was damaged sometimes. If you look at the layouts of the city around the Dublin 8 or similar the council just demolished a lot of history.

Also what aspect of Dublin is medieval?! (other than maybe the public transit system.)

It’s got a few specific sites here and there but they’re very limited and don’t form any kind of mesh do streets. It’s mostly Georgian at the fancier core and then has a lot of Victorian or Edwardian era stuff.

There’s practically no medieval aspects left at all. What was there like around Fishamble Street and Christchurch was mostly cleared and widened decades ago.

Dublin certainly isn’t York or something like that with the mesh of genuinely medieval streets.

It absolutely is not an example of a medieval city. It’s more of a mishmash of relatively more modern stuff from the Georgian era onwards.

Kilkenny might have more claim to that medieval heritage.

Ireland seems to suffer from a form of exceptionalism that means things don’t get done because “we’re special”. We are just bad at urban design and planning because we put none of the structures in place to do it properly.

It won’t happen because there’s no political will to make it happen and because there’s nothing in terms of council and mayoral structures that exist in continental or North American cities. So the projects are never driven though.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569410#Comment_120569410

So, underneath Dublin city core it's built on a mesh of old basements, drainage/sewage pipes, the River Poddle...

So basically this is what Dublin's central core looks like underground: http://www.hidden-dublin.com/poddle/poddle_pictures.html

Whilst an underground rail is possible it will cost many €Billions and many many years to construct.. and why does a central metro need to be underground when Bus only core city streets can be created with some paint and signs now?

We can't hide all public transit under the ground just to keep the roads free for Motorcars..

Well good luck with that one. It hasn’t got public support and simply won’t happen. We’ll be waffling asking the same questions in 2073 while the city centre is unchanged and clogged with EVs or whatever is around then.

You also seem to be of the impression there’s nothing under other cities in Europe. Many of them are far older than Dublin and had huge medieval and commonly Roman underpinnings, plenty also have much more complex settings e.g networks of canals and marches or have dealt all sorts of challenges, yet put in metros somehow.

Dublin simply cannot grow beyond a certain size without putting in infrastructure as it will choke. Light on street bus networks can’t carry the volumes of people you would need to get in and out of a large financial centre for example and running metro level of frequencies on streets would be pretty unpleasant.

The other option would be a Vancouver like sky train solution but I can’t see anyone wanting something like the Luas bridge in Dundrum strung around the city centre. We have to protect that gloriously flat skyline.

Eccentricity of island exceptionalism. We’re more like the Brits than we care admit.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570051#Comment_120570051

"We’ll be waffling asking the same questions in 2073 while the city centre is unchanged and clogged with EVs or whatever is around then."

I would say by then most of Dublin city centre would be underwater due to climate change the rise of sea levels and "oh do you remember the Ice-Caps and Glaciers?"....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570104#Comment_120570104

Quite likely tbh. It’s not like we’re going to build the sea defences until we’re at least shoulder deep. It’s unimaginably complex strategic planning.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569665#Comment_120569665

We also can’t be building a metro because people are a bit snobby about talking the bus.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569192#Comment_120569192

We kind of already have that in Fairview at the moment, and it's not working out well.

I've avoided the area for the last 12 months as indeed many other people have, yet buses are still slow because of an underlying design issue/choke point at Clearlys pub (road not wind enough under bridge)

Not to mention the irritation for residents. Like, wouldn't like to wake up tomorrow to discover that the Howth road is now a bus only road inbound. I don't use it ever during rush hour, but the traffic has to go somewhere and it's likely it will backup on the Raheny Rd, Tonlegee Rd, Clontarf Rd... in turn making locals life miserable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569372#Comment_120569372

I suppose there's a difference between delay and expectations on efficiency

This is the start swords express route, from the most populated area in Swords and the area with the most housing developments happening there.

It is not direct and it's slow, easily 1 minute per stop of people getting on. The bus is rarely held up by cars.

Stop to Stop it's around 50 mins to town via the Tunnel. This is private, revenue driven service, so I get that they try to catch as many areas as they can.

The 41c is the second option. It's a bit more direct, but it goes into the fricken airport. Journey time is easily 1 hour 20 mins to town (that is seriously slow for a more direct route). The buses are blocked by cars and vans for sure but not to the extent where they add more that 10% onto the Journey time. They're more frequently slowed down by cyclists and blocked by other buses, We've bus congestion now on many bus corridors, which is unusual.

Compare that with a similar distance on rail (The Dart from Malahide), 30 mins into town. With a train every 10 mins that can transport between 4 and 6 times the amount of passengers a Bus can (depending on how you count). It's far more environmentally friendly, more comfortable and more reliable. Like there is literally no comparison.

I do take you're point though that from time to time people are little feckers and will park in the bus lane or use it to turn left way before the left turn etc. But that's just people, and people are crap, there is no way to eliminate that. We need the Rail transport, It's nothing to do with snobbery. like 1 hour 20 mins to traverse 13km as the crow flys is not workable.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570889#Comment_120570889

We could eliminate the little feckers with some proper enforcement, ideally by automatic cameras. Imagine if very time a bus driver comes up behind a car scooting in the bus lane or a van or truck unloading in a bus lane, they could press a button, and the owner would get a fine and a couple of points?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570974#Comment_120570974

Enforcement is the biggest problem of all. Like I think there is more chance of a Metro being built than Bus Drivers being allowed to hand out fines by pressing a button. Can you imagine the legal mess it would create.... 🤮

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570997#Comment_120570997

What legal mess? Drivers wouldn’t be handing out fines. They would be reporting an offence, bit like the speed van. The Gardai would hand out points and fines, which could be disputed in Court, just like speeding fines.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571072#Comment_120571072

I don't know the legal frame work around the speed vans, does a member of the Garda have to review every video of a person breaking the speed limit?

Just cant see it happening, there aren't enough Garda to review/enforce. Would the bus drivers even bother? Like their Job is to drive the bus not report people. Dublin bus are struggling to hire Bus drivers as it is. I think the Bus thing has gotten as good as it's gonna get, there is no way to make meaningful improvements at this stage.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571102#Comment_120571102

The technology is there and cost inexpensive. The only resistance to bus lane cameras and the likes, to my knowledge, is AGS (who don't want to be bothered having to police traffic-related stuff) and the Dept of Justice (who don't want to hand over an element of power to civilians).

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570889#Comment_120570889

It's still a construction site, and I've been through the area by Bus and Bicycle both aren't pleasant options, there's still a high volume of private motor vehicles travelling through there, don't know where they're going as locals in that area have the Dart, multiple bus routes plus it's close enough to walk into say the IFSC for work...and very few employers in the city provide free parking so who's driving all these cars?

Once construction is finished I'd imagine bus times will improve, and maybe by then there will be a congestion charge for crossing the canal into the city..

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571102#Comment_120571102

It’s gotten as good as it gets if we decide we’re not bothered to implement improvements like this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49263375

Its not rocket surgery.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570889#Comment_120570889

The 41c doesn't go to the airport. You are probably thinking of the 41. The 41c is absolutely held up by traffic. I used to get it a lot. At peak time it takes ages and it is because there are loads of cars in its way. Including those that are illegally using the bus lane. That isn't from time to time either. Bus lane usage and parking is rampant. I have taken the 41c at non peak hours and it absolutely flies it. I agree with you that rail based transport is better for many reasons but there are definitely huge improvements that can be made for buses.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573532#Comment_120573532

Nothing new there.

TBH you could fill this thread with bad stuff that is happening in other countries.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571764#Comment_120571764

This is the million dollar question... where the hell are all these people going? I don't have the answer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573542#Comment_120573542

People need to turn left or park and enter the bus lane for a few moments, it's just a fact of life. I get when you extrapolate that out it's thousands of cars but the only solution there is to add a heap of no left turns on busy junctions, but that wont work either.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573739#Comment_120573739

I haven't seen that plan laid out in any manifesto but this thread is about traffic management in our cities and commuting.

The decisions about these matters are ours to make.

Tenzor07

Interesting, seems like these congestion charges and parking cost increases are linked with "Big Pedestrian" and "NWO’s plot called The Great Recycle to turn everyone into a bicycle."

https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2023/05/09/the-real-sinister-reasons-dublin-city-council-is-banning-private-cars-from-college-green/

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574265#Comment_120574265

You really do go off your rocker when anything involving the environment or alternatives to cars comes up. Normally you're going on about lycra by now your favourite fetish.

Anyway, what's up with Irish Twitter thinking any measures like this are some WEF conspiracy to keep us all in zones etc.?

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573928#Comment_120573928

There are plenty of people who drive in bus lanes like it is a normal lane or just straight up park in it. I saw it with my own eyes for years when I was on the 41/41c/33 commuting. The bus would get stuck behind a long line of cars all illegally in the bus lane. Fix that and it will improve the bus service. Start removing traffic in general and it would speed it up even more. That is why there is such a difference in commute times by bus on and off peak.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574265#Comment_120574265

People in other countries probably don't particularly care how we manage traffic and commuting in our cities but we should.

Commuters still need to get to jobs in the city centre and in outlying areas.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574614#Comment_120574614

if that was the case why is there more investment in public transport now than we've ever had?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574614#Comment_120574614

Nobody from any party has ever said that walking or cycling is suitable for everyone.

All the politicians and civil servants know that the car will be the answer for many for a long time yet.

Why wouldn't they when they use cars themselves ?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574614#Comment_120574614

Who exactly is saying that?

All I've heard is that people who don't need to drive should be able to have the option of efficient public transport or active travel.

I don't recall anyone from a "numpty brigade" of any colour suggesting that everyone needs to stop using cars - that is just in people's heads because it suits whatever narrative is bouncing around in there!

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574784#Comment_120574784

How do you get world leading public transportation when a few dickheads in their cars are blocking bus lanes?

As for the "green taxes and charges", some of these aren't green despite the deliberate attempt to portray them as such. They are proposed for various reasons including to discourage people driving into already congested cities. Other aspects are for safety reasons and not necessarily part of a green agenda. Speed limit reductions in urban areas is in-part to enable people who choose to cycle to make the decision to do so. Hopefully then most of our population won't be as overweight as they currently are - this has massive benefits for our health systems.

But some out there think the ability to drive door to door is a God-given right and think this is a hill worth dying on. Fine. If you want to sit in your car then that is your choice but your preference on how to travel should not be give priority over others who choose to travel more sustainably, who choose to travel more efficiently. Nobody is proposing to take your car from you but in order to make mass transit better, something has to give and that something is the priorisation that was previously handed over to drivers.

rogue-entity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320410#Comment_120320410

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120320533#Comment_120320533

More sanctimonious disingenuous and antagonistic rubbish, if folks live outside of the big urban areas whether by choice or by price, then either propose convenient and workable public transport options, or leave them and their cars alone. Simples.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575009#Comment_120575009

yeah you may just need to keep your car out of the city centre, it's not that big a deal. park it somewhere and take public transport in.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575009#Comment_120575009

So in your view, someone coming from outside a city should have the right to bring their car in because they've to travel a long distance? That's nonsense. The same rules will apply to everyone. If an area is routinely congested then measures need to be put in place to prevent that congestion - waving your rural passport won't be a reason to avoid those measures.

As for your suggestion to "propose convenient and workable public transport options" - what do you think they are trying to do? Public transport has never seen the amount of change that it has in the last few years. It has never seen the amount of funding it is currently seeing. Change is currently happening despite the tantrums of some drivers.

Lastly, your comment "leave them and their cars alone" - nobody is trying to stop you or me owning a car or from being able to drive it. What they are doing is making other options available including convenient and workable public transport, just as you yourself suggested! However, to do so means that road space and prioritisation cannot continue being handed over to for the sole use of people who make the choice to drive into a congested area.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575197#Comment_120575197

I'm being realistic. Bus lanes will be the cornerstone of any public transport options here for the coming decades simply because any kind of metro system will require a long time to plan and develop.

However, I repliued to your post before you edited it, adding in the bit about the metro line from Swords. Incidentally, a single metro line which has already taken years to get to where it currently is, is not "world leading public transportation"!

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575120#Comment_120575120

What is needed is park and ride on all major approaches to congested urban areas. High quality, high frequency orbital and radial public transport routes that allow someone to get to their destination with no more than one change. Daily and weekly public transport within the park and ride zone limited to €4/€5 per day or €20/€25 per week. Then people might see using public transport as being appealing.

There should be no congestion charge outside the times when peak hours / high frequency public transport is operating.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575584#Comment_120575584

These options are taking decades because green numpties are dead set on killing any and all infrastructure in this country

Care to give some examples of this claim?

all so cycle greenways can be built at a per kilometre cost higher than 4 lane motorway

Which greenway is being built at a cost higher than a 4 lane motorway?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575642#Comment_120575642

Ah so your claim that greenways were being built at this high cost is not correct then. You deliberately cherry pick one complex part of the overall Royal Canal Greenway project which also includes contingency costs (the rest of the RCG is working out relatively inexpensively)...

https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/03/why-is-a-2-1km-section-of-the-royal-canal-greenway-costing-e30-8-million/

You could also compare the cost against the money so far spent on the GCRR which although about the same amount, the GCRR hasn't even had a sod turned (and probably won't)!

I'd also point out that the RCG development has pretty much nothing to do with any "green numpties" unless you can identify a particular council it passes through which is led by the Green Party?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575723#Comment_120575723

WTF are you on about now?

rogue-entity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575060#Comment_120575060

That's something that should/would work for a majority I would expect.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575120#Comment_120575120

"You moved to a place that needs a car to get everywhere, then complain about you need car." The complaint is the suggestion that car ownership should be punished, made inconvenient and discouraged while ignoring the reality of life where no alternative exists, which is what I took issue with.

I'll admit I've seen some changes, but I'm still waiting for proposals to connect the Airports to the rail network, or introduce a proper underground in Dublin, Light Rail in Cork, Limerick, Galway, expansion of the Heavy rail network to improve connections, fixing the 1990s ticketing system that's disconnected between the Bus/Luas and Rail services (though no country has quite nailed that, Germany and Netherlands come close though)

Lastly, thank you, we agree on that

Fogmatic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350557#Comment_120350557

A bit off topic, but the HSE website has been out of date every time I've looked for something there. (Today, it said my nearest pharmacy is doing Covid boosters, but when I rang them, nope).

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575120#Comment_120575120

I wonder would they provide a number of safe secure places to park around the outskirts of the city (like a park and ride) and perhaps some sort of a secure locker system you could depend on for safe storage of personal transportation in a number of key areas near city center, southside etc (like escooters, ebikes etc...preferably subsidised to encourage people to not bring the car into the city centre and so that you dont have to get on a shuttle bus to a predefined location and then another connecting bus which introduces delay and frustration

The standard MO always seems to be introduce charges but do **** all to provide much in the way of reasonable and convenient alternatives, personally speaking if there was any kind of reasonable alternative for me I would take it.....Id actually like to be able to get in and out of Dublin without taking a car, for one I could have a couple of drinks as I wouldn't be driving home...maybe not a great reason but if they did have reasonable alternatives it could actually be beneficial to the city centre in terms of an additional influx of people coming in for reasons like a night out etc etc

If they would think about doing something like that I personally would be less inclined to bring a car but without options like that why the **** would I park somewhere like liffey valley and wait for a poxy bus (especially in bad weather) ill just pay the charge and it will have gotten more expensive to do what I always do and I'd wager the city centre will still be congested anyway, I think that's one reason why people object to a lot of this......Its always slap a charge on it...if the system was half as eager to slap consequences on wasters/layabouts and recidivist criminals I might be more accepting too

If I think about getting a train in for me...you book a seat, that wont be there when you get on the train, so it will be standing room only a lot of the time and the service is infrequent and sometimes wont get me there on time and to a station where Id need to get an expensive taxi to my final destination, Id rather spend the money driving the car tbh......

I also ride a motorcycle, they take up way less space, what about providing some secure subsidized spaces for those for parking in the city centre?...maybe its only 5% of road users but it could relieve the congestion somewhat....on a good day I've occasionally ridden one in from down the country, id consider doing it more often if there was some additional carrot like the above, perhaps others would too?

If they are throwing money at public transport then maybe increase the frequency of train services going in and out of Dublin from other counties and put enough carriages on that people can actually have a seat on said train and **** scumbags off them during off peak hours + make the price lower than what you would burn in diesel/petrol and parking fees...it would need to be as the convenience of your own car particularly if you are shopping or have bulky items cant be understated

TBH I'm not sure a congestion charge on its own at this point will accomplish much apart from irk a lot of people and if it does then it might just allow the more affluent a less congested area to blast through in their Porsches, Bugattis and Tesla Roadsters while the plebs stand nose to nose in a double decker. inhaling antos pungent BO mixed with the smell of frustration, boredom and hash at best....but time will tell I suppose..........