The eviction ban

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371730#Comment_120371730

And who is paying the money from which the rent has to be paid?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371601#Comment_120371601

the netherlands still have mixed developments and are creating more.

only actual problematic families are moved to the villages however those villages are heavily resourced and there is heavy enforcement because the netherlands can afford the huge costs of making it work because the amount of families are tiny.

putting a roof over their heads costs us less in the long run.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371742#Comment_120371742

So it's a hostage situation then? We have to house scum or worse will happen.

Other countries have a far better idea of how to deal with this.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371615#Comment_120371615

it would cost billions as we would need to build huge infrastructure and services where we plan to move them to, or if not, the huge costs that creating a ghetto brings.

a state sanctioned policy of moving people into areas because of certain characteristics or ideals is generally a form of genocide because it is designed to separate those people from people deemed to be deserving/perfect/whatever because of said characteristics and ideals regardless of whether individuals have done anything wrong or not.

it's your job to work hard, and actually you don't fully pay your way because you, like me and every other tax payer and non-tax payer, receive public services.

if you own the house or live in the bank's house until you have paid the mortgage and then it becomes yours, then of course it's your job to pay for any extention you may need.

the council tenant, most of who are not free loaders but people in need, don't pay for some things because they can't afford it and are in need because the required evidence has been provided to show they are in need.

it just boils your blood because you think you are special when you aren't, as none of us are.

if someone got the house for half the price you would be boiling over that as well.

you made your choice to own a property as i did, suck it up.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371737#Comment_120371737

moderate socialism works perfectly in a capitalist world, otherwise we would have no public services or infrastructure.

extreme socialism as practiced hardly anywhere doesn't work but just as well nobody is looking for it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371761#Comment_120371761

you think wrong.

the rise of the far/alt right (well it's not really a rise anymore as people are slowly seeing through them) is due to the far/alt right being able to dupe already extreme individuals as well as other misfits via bringing out their inner victim complex and convincing them that good stuff that benefit them is to blame for them not amounting to anything or what they want to be when in fact it is them, and the policies implemented by the ordinary right in the past.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371771#Comment_120371771

we already did vote for it.

the UK has a hard right government at the moment, and the centre to the far/alt right have been rejected every time they have gone for election to something in ireland as people know they offer and will offer nothing but sound bites while trashing workers.

exactly like the UK where workers are being driven to the brink by 13 years of wrecking the gaff.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371778#Comment_120371778

No, your absurd propositions (and those like you) are the reason. You think that workers have no issue with absolute scumbags being housed in their estates and wrecking their lives, that it's not an issue.

You say it costs us all less in the long run. So you are advocating for a hostage situation.

Like I said, you are deluded or just trolling.

Either way there will be answers coming for all of this nonsense. Not that I support the right wing, I'm centrist like most, but keep pushing your nonsense.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371776#Comment_120371776

it is still socialism however because the money is taken from us to centrally fund the services for all of us, those services being inefficient or not.

even if we pay something to use the services, if they are government funded as well then it means they are being subsidized so still equate to socialism.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371784#Comment_120371784

no, it's because of what i said.

deluding individuals with a victim complex by appealing to and bringing out their victim complex is the reason for the small rise of the far right.

the far right have no answers and even the general right have no answers.

only us centrists and the moderate left have the answers.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371758#Comment_120371758

What is it with you and strawman throwaway comments? Yeah, I made my choice and pay for my own house and contribute to society. You make it sound like like a bad thing.

OK, I'm going to break this down, because clearly you have zero concept with regards to the value of the properties in prime locations versus basically anywhere outside of Dublin, Cork and Galway. Take a hypothetical example for Dublin and if it was a requirement to keep social tenants inside Dublins borders rather than building in Leitrim. Places like Oldtown and Ballyboughal on the northside, or around Knockannavea and Dungaoith have the hard infrastructure to start building social housing for freeloaders. There would need to be a relatively small investment to get started in the region of a few hundred million which would quickly be earned back by selling and/or properly renting the social housing inside the M50 zone to start and then tackling the likes of D22 & D24 in the final stages.

DCC alone currently own 25,000 properties. Interesting that as of 2017 (most recent available figures), 20% of these properties have more bedrooms than tenants. If we conservatively say the average price is 350,000 per unit, then the value is close to 9,000,000.000. (€9 Billion). This excludes FCC units which would be a significant number I am sure. It also excludes the HAP payments which are over €1,000 on average. I dont have DCC figures, but in 2019, the national number of properties on HAP was above 57,000. Dublin holds the lions share, so to conservatively speculate that 25,000 Dublin properties are on HAP, that's €25,000,000 per year that could be put to greater use in less prime areas.

I would move HAP recipients first and end the scheme. Over a 10 year period, that would be €250,000,000 not wasted and given to private landlords, most of whom don't want HAP tenants anyway. It takes some extrapolation due to low availability, but the average cost to build a medium rise apartment complex, broken down per unit outside the M50 zone is €100,000. This is actually based on 2 bed apartments in Skerries (so more expensive really) and then considering the construction costs being at around half of the sale price.

If we only took the HAP savings over the 10 year period of €250,000,000 and assumed a very large increase of 50% per unit cost to allow for local services, we would have over 1,600 units built and no further expenditure. Charge affordable rents based on income and the council would then have another income stream instead of a bottomless pit.

If we then tackle the council houses (which by the way excludes housing charities which councils pay for and are not on the books) we have €9,000,000,000 to play with. Using the same €150,000 unit build cost, that would produce 60,000 units.

Finally, step back for a second here and remember there are 25k direct DCC properties. How many properties would we then have to play with if we could build 60,000 of them by moving council and HAP tenants out of the prime areas? We need less than 5,000 units to house all the homeless in the country.

How many people would save hundreds of hours per year no longer commuting from Kildare, Meath, Louth, Carlow, Wicklow and further afield to Dublin? That's a lot of pollution miles and more time workers have with their families. Working folk should have greater choice than freeloaders with regards to where they live. Want a free, or heavily almost entirely subsidised house, then you need to move out further. I hope this helps paint the picture for you. I doubt any political party would have the balls, or vision to take on such a project though.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371794#Comment_120371794

yes they are called sinn fein.

the current government aren't centre left.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372652#Comment_120372652

the council tenants are fine in the prime areas which are only really prime for developers.

low paid workers would never be in those areas due to affordability and would in a lot of cases still end up commuting from kildare ETC either because they own property or other reasons.

so ultimately your   social classist cleansing program would still remain unviable and would be a ridiculous cost, whereas simply building houses on available land within the cities and a bit out is the only workable sollution and those houses being available for a mix of users .

working people have a greater choice of properties, it's just properties are expensive to own and rent at the moment.

what you want was tried and it created ghetoisation and huge regeneration costs, ergo it failed and no political party is going to waste their time on that again.

classissssst social cleansing will not happen in ireland.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372795#Comment_120372795

Do you have anything to back up your nonsense claims? You have rubbished mine despite me backing up everything I posted.

In my post, I never mentioned anything about developers and yet somehow, you managed to squeeze them into prime areas. The existing social stock, sold, or rented as they currently stand would achieve the figures I quoted. I suspect you skimmed through and conveniently ignored what didn't suit you.

Working people DO NOT have a greater choice in properties. The councils have been for years buying up private stock in the cities and renting them to social tenants. This pushes workers out of the local market and forces them to move to commuter towns. This is why, as you correctly pointed out, the properties are too expensive. The current system places tenants with no jobs into the prime property location.

If there were 2 families awaiting housing allocation with 1 family having both adults working in Dublin City and the other family being unemployed. With 1 property based in Dublin City and the other based in.....Ballyboughal, Co Dublin, which family would you put into the Co Dublin property and why?

Ghetto towns arise when the properties are built without appropriate services in place. This is why in my calculation I allowed a 50% per unit increase which....as I pointed out would more than double the number of social dwellings while freeing up 25,000 properties within Dublin City for people to buy and/or rent.

Emblematic

The solutions will involve more supply overall. More social housing being built. More build to rent. More build to purchase. More rezoning. Speeding up the planning process. Tackling nimbyism and lobbying by landlord groups trying to limit supply. To a certain extent it does not matter what type of units are supplied; everything has a knock-on effect of easing shortage elsewhere.

I think the mistake many of us make wherever we stand on the political spectrum is that we assume we can't do anything about supply and therefore it is about grabbing as much for ourselves before the other person gets it. Hence, on the right, some people don't want social housing in prosperous areas and meanwhile, on the left, a higher end development is objected to on the basis that it does not cater to the less well off. However all these are solving the supply issue and those objecting are stifling the solution.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372932#Comment_120372932

It's not just the cities and commuter towns around them that the councils are buying everything, it's happening further out too.

I'm privately renting a house (no HAP or other assistance) that is one of a row of 4. The other 3 have been sold to the council and social tenants installed in as many years. Thankfully 2 of the 3 are lovely and decent working people - the other have already had a Garda raid in the year they've been here and are members of our own other "oppressed minority" (thank you Enda Kenny!) with everything that brings. It'll get worse no doubt as the kids get older.

This is 2 counties away from Dublin but I find myself in a position where, while I am on "good money" and work mostly from home, because I'm a single working person I haven't a chance of saving enough in a reasonable timeframe to buy somewhere - I'm not just competing against other renters (most being couples with double my earning potential), but my own taxes in the form of the council. Then there's the current "come one, come all" refugee/migrant policy that is only adding to the pressures - especially as many of them will be here indefinitely.

If I do have to go to the office, that's a trip to just inside the M50 - an hour on a good day, double that if not so good, and the same back in the evening. The one good thing to come from Covid was increased/normalised WFH. Before 2020 I was shattered by the end of the day and my home was more like a B&B because of the time lost - not to mention that doing upwards of 1100km a week wasn't cheap either!

Like many others in this bracket, I pay for everything yet get very little in return and certainly no assistance unless I am unfortunate enough to lose my job - in which case I'll be treated like a waster and hounded with paperwork and stress, while the actual wasters game the system without issue.

As I said before, this country and its services are fundamentally broken - not just in term of resources, but priorities, management and accountability. There are no parties that represent me or others like me (they all see us as cash cows to be milked for every cent to put towards the "less fortunate" and their own pockets), and we're being penalised more and more each year - rental costs are just one element. There's also the costs of utilities and essential/required services (insurance, healthcare etc etc), and ongoing threats to punish people for having the gall to drive to work.

Ireland seems to be drifting more and more into left-leaning socialism with each election and despite all the talk about "the economy", the situation on the ground seems to be deteriorating. We could ask where the money is going, but anyone with an even passing interest in politics over the last 20 years will know that - wasteful pet and vanity projects, massive foreign aid during the recession, political hangers on (formerly builders and benefactors, now NGOs among others), and of course general waste and inefficiency (it's only taxpayer money after all!).

The really depressing thing is that I don't see it getting better, but easily expect it to get worse as we layer on the socially divisive identity and culture war over it all. The place is rapidly becoming like the worst of the US because we seem to absorb it like a sponge in our genetic "need" for approval and validation.

The way things are going, I'll be advising my son to work and study hard in school, get his degree and then GTFO of this place because by the time he gets to that point there'll probably be no future for him in Ireland anyway.

Emblematic

@_Kaiser_ wrote: "This is 2 counties away from Dublin but I find myself in a position where, while am on "good money" and work mostly from home, because I'm a single working person, I haven't a chance of saving enough in a reasonable timeframe to buy somewhere - I'm not just competing against other renters (most being couples with double my earning potential), but my own taxes in the form of the council. Then there's the current "come one, come all" refugee/migrant policy that is only adding to the pressures - especially as many of them will be here indefinitely."

And on top of it all, although I don't know the specifics of your case, I would imagine that you have no security of tenancy. At any point, even in the middle of your lease, you could be told to vacate due to a family member of the landlord moving in or that the property is to be sold.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375549#Comment_120375549

Yep exactly. I've been here a few years now which is well above average, but there's always that "threat" looming over you, and you can't do anything to the place because either they won't allow it (although my LL is very reasonable, if entirely reactive and absent) or there's no point beyond relatively small things because you're investing in someone else's property.

I couldn't even get a cat because while my LL probably wouldn't mind and I furnished the place myself, what about the next one?

Marie1976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375549#Comment_120375549

Are you trying to say that a landlord should never be allowed to use their property for their own use or for their family?

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375634#Comment_120375634

I was more making a comment about the market as a whole and how supply needs to increase dramatically. Having said that, once supply problems are on the way to being solved, I would like to see things shifting away from small-time landlords and more towards professional fund based ones who would be more in a position to offer such security once properly regulated.

Emblematic

@BlueSkyDreams wrote: However, there doesn't seem to be a mainstream party that is not of a socialist left wing bent and they all prioritise non workers, low paid workers and Refugees over the squeezed middle who are struggling, whilst paying for everything via their taxation.

However I don't think there's any ideological force at work here. Fianna Fail and Fine Geal are traditionally both centre-right parties. They generally try to look after employers, investors, small landlords and so on. However they tend to have a very short term view of things and don't see crises coming or the consequences of their actions.

The reason rent controls were put in place a few years ago is because of a failure to ramp up housing production after the financial crisis. Possibly the reluctance to do this was because a shortage of supply is good for landlords (a group that suffered in the financial crisis).

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375883#Comment_120375883

Landlords aren't the biggest interest group when it comes to the housing crisis. Property owners are and this is an interest group that all political parties pander to the opposition to Property taxes being the biggest example.

Higher property prices directly benefit homeowners and increase their paper wealth. A significant increase in property completions would dampen or even reverse this growth. Something which is even politically seen as worse than the current housing crisis based on the actions of practicallyevery politican going regardless of political affiliation. Every politician and especially those in urban areas will oppose the building of new properties for pretty much every reason under the sun. I heard of one political party in Canada who had a focus group made up largely of home owners. They asked two separate questions. One who supports polices to ensure affordable house prices most people put up their hands. Second question who supports measures that would reduce house prices (ie to make them affordable) a huge decrease in the numbers of hands going up. I appreciate that's only an anecdote but it captures the contradictory attitudes a lot of people have towards house prices.

So you have politicians on one hand complaining about the housing crisis and then at the same time actively contributing to it by supporting constituents opposing new housing developments or anything that might decrease house prices in certain areas. That is seen across all parties and independents.

mariaalice

To those who work from home some of the week, why would they not buy something like this, https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/ard-na-carraig-carrick-road-edenderry-offaly/4382286 its the cheapest new house I could find on myhome 239k because its new it could be purchased with help to buy.https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/help_with_buying_a_home/help_to_buy_incentive.html

I know this is a sensitive topic but I a curious about this.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375883#Comment_120375883

No, the "reluctance" was the lack of credit available to Developers, most of whom were gone anyway.

And the State was in an IMF led Troika programme, in case anyone had forgotten and hence in no position to enable a massive capital building programme with State borrowings and investments.

Besides, there was net emigration and values were plummeting, why the hell would anyone have invested in substantial property building between 2010 and 2015 or so. Everything since has been a catch-up of necessity.

RedXIV

Another vote on the ban taking place this week? Ironically I'm finding it very hard to keep up with the news on it as I'm frantically trying to organise alternative accommodation for the family:

https://www.thejournal.ie/coalition-leaders-meeting-sinn-fein-motion-extend-eviction-ban-6023741-Mar2023

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377846#Comment_120377846

You might have thought that but measures in the form of NAMA were actually put in place to limit supply of housing and put a floor on values after the crash.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377738#Comment_120377738

@PeadarCo wrote: "Landlords aren't the biggest interest group when it comes to the housing crisis. Property owners are and this is an interest group that all political parties pander to the opposition to Property taxes being the biggest example.

Higher property prices directly benefit homeowners and increase their paper wealth. A significant increase in property completions would dampen or even reverse this growth."

It is true that homeowners generally like rising house prices but unlike the investor, can't cash in as the still need to live somewhere. In addition, rising prices can go against someone's interests if they are starting out on the ladder as the gap between where they are and the next rung up is likely to widen making it harder to trade up when the need arises. I would say it is more nimbyism that is the problem with homeowners, objecting to high density developments nearby.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377838#Comment_120377838

I have lived in Edenderry. There are good reasons why houses are cheap there. If someone wants a house at all costs then they can go for it but there are other aspects that should be considered when choosing where to live.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381321#Comment_120381321

While I agree with some of your post, other parts I disagree with.

I would regard this as pro-landlord policy or at least the outcome has been pro-landlord. These high rents directly benefit landlords at the expense of tenants. Also the government buying up rental properties, while competing on rent, will, on the other hand, inflate asset prices for landlords. The government subsidizing rents through HAP also benefits landlords.

Yes there are some things landlords don't like such as rent controls and no-fault eviction bans however these things I would argue are panic reactions to avert crises rather than being due to ideological positions within FF or FG. They would rather not have to do these things and thereby alienate those they have been looking after up to that point.

irishproduce

Independent reporting today that county council managers will warn the Dails housing committee that a consequence of buying houses for social tenants in situ will directly compete with first time buyers.

1st prize for stating the obvious.