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Why does the Catholic Church still gave control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

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    #152
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Irony and ignorance is packaged into the OP's call to inaction. 

    Not only are some of the earlist written records are of Church schools, during the 7th Century, the arguements echoes those of English bureaucrats who sought to remove the role of a Parent's faith from their childrens schooling, just as the current state proposes. Likely, as all progressives are expert in US politics, that country's education system is held out by the Education dept. as some form of ideal - ignoring the role of Catholic parochial schools which out perform their public peers.

    Still, if removing Church ethos from schools means owning the conservatives at the cost of failing students it is totally worth it, amirite?



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    #153
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

    I had to double check to make sure I had the right poster.

    So you were on the Gaa forum fighting for the idea for men to compete in women's football.

    You made a statement that kids as young as 3 can know they are in the wrong body.

    Yet here you are here admitting you don't have kids and posting about removing the Catholic Church from schools.

    You will forgive me for doubting your motives for this thread.

    Sure wouldn't removing the Church make it easier for trans studies to be introduced into schools.

    I assume seems you are so concerned about kids bring thought about ideology that you are against trans being thought in schools?



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    #154
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users Posts: 12,602 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341619#Comment_120341619

    Oh thanks for that now we know what the reason for this thread exists



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    #155
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341403#Comment_120341403

    It doesn't matter what the source is. That is what is in a religion book for little kids.

    Another post which doesn't even attempt to engage with the points raised but just resorts to spittle-flecked nonsense.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #156
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,529 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341374#Comment_120341374

    You have clearly got too big an ax to grind in that head of yours.

    Nobody really cares. 10s of 1000s of children will be happily going to school day in a day out regardless of the exaggerated outrage against the church that seems to be “all the range” recently..



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    #157
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341425#Comment_120341425

    Forgive me if I take the word of a man who spent 37 years teaching (indeed, was a principal) in catholic schools over J. Random Person on the internet.

    NB we are talking about Primary level here where all teachers are expected to instruct in (not just teach about) the catholic faith. It's not an issue for recruiting teachers at second level as far as I'm aware (except religion obviously).

    The schools hire and fire but it's a strange type of employer which doesn't pay the wages, isn't it?

    Point is, our education system has long been out of step with Irish society but the current situation is getting ever more untenable, and even certain RC bishops talk about divesting a substantial number of schools (they don't do anything, but have at least talked about it, so maybe in another few decades they'll do something...)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #158
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341461#Comment_120341461

    The usual disingenuous comparison between PRIVATE, fee-charging, exclusionary religious schools in the US (or UK) with public schools in those countries.

    Of course schools for snobs perform "better" (on the narrow grounds of entry into sought-after university places at least - at turning out decent ethical people, not always so much - are our political and business classes more ethical or moral because most of them went to private religious schools? It sure doesn't appear to be the case)

    It's not because they're religious, it's because they exclude.

    Totally irrelevant to the question of how our national schools, open to all, should be organised.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #159
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,430 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342003#Comment_120342003

    The Bishops are seeing dollars signs. Apparently the state is planning on paying rent to "reconfigure" certain schools.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/school-divestment-process-is-a-fiasco-1.4824504



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    #160
    downtheroad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338494#Comment_120338494

    Still discriminates against women. Still discriminates against homosexuals. Still opposes abortion. Still opposes contraception. The sexual abuse of kids has reduced a bit alright, and they don't seem to be putting as many children's corpses into septic tanks, I'll give you that much.



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    #161
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342019#Comment_120342019

    Who do they exclude?



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    #162
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,615 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    deleted



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    #163
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,328 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    what people have to remember, these Catholic schools are on acres of property. A lot owned by the religious organisations.

    the Christian Brothers school I went to as an example im reading is located on 12 acres of land. Comprising of the main school building, two gyms, multiple classrooms, language labs, practical labs from sciences to woodwork etc….there is staff parking, break yard, two full size GAA pitches and one all weather soccer pitch.

    there is also a house on the site where retired brothers live…I believe there are no longer brothers teaching..but the school and land belongs to the Edmund Rice trust…

    the government / taxpayers simply couldn’t afford to buy them…..to buy every school on ground owned by a religious order would cost the taxpayers a few billion…..not a savvy investment.



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    #164
    Starfire20
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Starfire20


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

    doesn't the church owe money for all the rape and misery it caused?

    they cry poor mouth even with the sweetheart deal they got from FF on it too.

    moral indeed.



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    #165
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,430 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

    The state would have probably built most or all of that.

    They'll need a source of income sooner rather than later I'd say. Divesting schools will be on the cards.



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    #166
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339091#Comment_120339091

    OK, so you want every school to be an ETB school. Okay.

    So there will be no choice, the ETB will have a monopoly.



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    #167
    downtheroad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

    Quick trade, write off the billions of restitution owed for all the kiddy fiddling carried out by priests over the years, and the abuses covered up by the church. They could hand over all church owned land to the state and still owe a few quid at the end of the day.



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    #168
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342032#Comment_120342032

    The Irish people paid for these schools and this land, and now the catholic church is extorting the Irish people to pay for these schools and this land all over again.

    Showing their tru€ colour$ once again.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #169
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342033#Comment_120342033

    The reduction in clerical sexual abuse nowadays is due to the fact that no parent with firing brain cells would let their kids near a priest unsupervised

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #170
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342040#Comment_120342040

    Those who can't afford the fees and don't go to church "enough".

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #171
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342287#Comment_120342287

    The problem here is even if the state did pay for the building of the schools on the religious orders land the buildings will still belongs to the religious orders as it is on their land.


    However the state has probably got itself into a position where a religious order cant eject the school (not that they want to anyway)


    We seem to be in a position where the religious order are the full owners of the schools but the state has a perpetual right to use the land as a school with no rent attached as long as the religious orders religion is taught there. The situation is certainly a win for the taxpayer.



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    #172
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Look up "ground rent". Lots of houses were built on (British absentee landlord's) land without a freehold title, it didn't mean the lord owned the house.

    There is a restrictive zoning on almost all school grounds in urban areas - schools can't just be knocked on a whim and turned into apartments. Although in several cases religious orders have flogged off playing fields used by schools for decades to cash in, and given none of that cash to the school, this was permitted because the land the school was on was protected but not the playing fields.

    Yet again, when there was a choice between what was right and what was profitable, the catholic church chose the latter.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #173
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343276#Comment_120343276

    You are referring to leasehold property? When a lease expires all the buildings and fixtures belong to the freeholder even if the leaseholder built the building.


    So if I lease land from the freeholder and then build a house on it and then the lease expires the building belongs to the freeholder. I cant come in day after the lease expires and remove the bricks on the justification i paid for them.



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    #174
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343230#Comment_120343230

    That's generally how any commercial transaction occurs, if you can't afford it then you don't get it.

    You'll have to expand upon the going to church bit, I know a few lads who went to private schools and they never mentioned a church quota, plus boards seems to be a place for people to over egg the pudding by quite a bit.



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    #175
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Leases up to 9999 years long are legally recognised. Again please educate yourself on the history of the land war in Ireland and the 20th century ground rents problem. The Irish state was able to force landlords to sell the freehold for "ground rented" residential properties for quite a low sum.

    I do find it wonderfully ironic that we are comparing the roman catholic church to rack-renting British absentee landlords

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #176
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343360#Comment_120343360

    First of all the state does not even lease the land from the religious orders. The religious orders are still in possession and occupation of the land. The point being made before is just because the state may pay for an extension or new build on religious orders land does not make the state the legal owner of the building. The state and religious orders are in a complex position where the orders own the land and buildings but they cant take full control of the property and the state has the right to use the land for schools.


    "The Irish state was able to force landlords to sell the freehold for "ground rented" residential properties for quite a low sum"


    That is still the case. Any leaseholder of a residential property can buy out the freeholder via Landlord Tenant Act. What is your point? Are you trying to say the state can buy out the religious orders? 1. The state is not leasing from the religious orders first of all so Landlord Tenant Acts dont apply and 2. The land is not residential. There is nothing in law that can allow the state to force the religious orders sell their land for pittance. This might not suit your ideology but that is the fact.

    Post edited by ittakestwo on


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    #177
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,430 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343247#Comment_120343247

    A loss for the taxpayer. Having paid for the land and the schools they still don't own them.



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    #178
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343641#Comment_120343641

    We are talking about schools on land owned by religious orders. Ie land that was never bought for by the state/taxpayer.



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    #179
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,430 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343732#Comment_120343732

    Paid for by the donations of local communities.



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    #180
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342694#Comment_120342694

    No I do not want multi denominational schools. I want the state to fund non denominational schools only.

    There will be a choice. If you want religous schools that should be funded by the religion and its members and not the state.

    I am not saying private schools cannot exist just that they should not be state funded.

    The choice remains.



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    #181
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343348#Comment_120343348

    It's common in the UK and US which is what the other poster (doing the usual "catholic schools are better there, so let's keep them as the only option here" crap) was referring to

    Given a choice between churchgoing parents with the cash and just parents with the cash, they choose the former.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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