Why does the Catholic Church still have control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

Manach

Irony and ignorance is packaged into the OP's call to inaction. 

Not only are some of the earlist written records are of Church schools, during the 7th Century, the arguements echoes those of English bureaucrats who sought to remove the role of a Parent's faith from their childrens schooling, just as the current state proposes. Likely, as all progressives are expert in US politics, that country's education system is held out by the Education dept. as some form of ideal - ignoring the role of Catholic parochial schools which out perform their public peers.

Still, if removing Church ethos from schools means owning the conservatives at the cost of failing students it is totally worth it, amirite?

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058287307/why-does-the-catholic-church-still-gave-control-over-some-schools-in-ireland-its-time-this-changed

I had to double check to make sure I had the right poster.

So you were on the Gaa forum fighting for the idea for men to compete in women's football.

You made a statement that kids as young as 3 can know they are in the wrong body.

Yet here you are here admitting you don't have kids and posting about removing the Catholic Church from schools.

You will forgive me for doubting your motives for this thread.

Sure wouldn't removing the Church make it easier for trans studies to be introduced into schools.

I assume seems you are so concerned about kids bring thought about ideology that you are against trans being thought in schools?

Snake Plisken

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341619#Comment_120341619

Oh thanks for that now we know what the reason for this thread exists

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341403#Comment_120341403

It doesn't matter what the source is. That is what is in a religion book for little kids.

Another post which doesn't even attempt to engage with the points raised but just resorts to spittle-flecked nonsense.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341374#Comment_120341374

You have clearly got too big an ax to grind in that head of yours.

Nobody really cares. 10s of 1000s of children will be happily going to school day in a day out regardless of the exaggerated outrage against the church that seems to be “all the range” recently..

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341425#Comment_120341425

Forgive me if I take the word of a man who spent 37 years teaching (indeed, was a principal) in catholic schools over J. Random Person on the internet.

NB we are talking about Primary level here where all teachers are expected to instruct in (not just teach about) the catholic faith. It's not an issue for recruiting teachers at second level as far as I'm aware (except religion obviously).

The schools hire and fire but it's a strange type of employer which doesn't pay the wages, isn't it?

Point is, our education system has long been out of step with Irish society but the current situation is getting ever more untenable, and even certain RC bishops talk about divesting a substantial number of schools (they don't do anything, but have at least talked about it, so maybe in another few decades they'll do something...)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341461#Comment_120341461

The usual disingenuous comparison between PRIVATE, fee-charging, exclusionary religious schools in the US (or UK) with public schools in those countries.

Of course schools for snobs perform "better" (on the narrow grounds of entry into sought-after university places at least - at turning out decent ethical people, not always so much - are our political and business classes more ethical or moral because most of them went to private religious schools? It sure doesn't appear to be the case)

It's not because they're religious, it's because they exclude.

Totally irrelevant to the question of how our national schools, open to all, should be organised.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342003#Comment_120342003

The Bishops are seeing dollars signs. Apparently the state is planning on paying rent to "reconfigure" certain schools.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/school-divestment-process-is-a-fiasco-1.4824504

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338494#Comment_120338494

Still discriminates against women. Still discriminates against homosexuals. Still opposes abortion. Still opposes contraception. The sexual abuse of kids has reduced a bit alright, and they don't seem to be putting as many children's corpses into septic tanks, I'll give you that much.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342019#Comment_120342019

Who do they exclude?

osarusan

deleted

Strumms

what people have to remember, these Catholic schools are on acres of property. A lot owned by the religious organisations.

the Christian Brothers school I went to as an example im reading is located on 12 acres of land. Comprising of the main school building, two gyms, multiple classrooms, language labs, practical labs from sciences to woodwork etc….there is staff parking, break yard, two full size GAA pitches and one all weather soccer pitch.

there is also a house on the site where retired brothers live…I believe there are no longer brothers teaching..but the school and land belongs to the Edmund Rice trust…

the government / taxpayers simply couldn’t afford to buy them…..to buy every school on ground owned by a religious order would cost the taxpayers a few billion…..not a savvy investment.

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

doesn't the church owe money for all the rape and misery it caused?

they cry poor mouth even with the sweetheart deal they got from FF on it too.

moral indeed.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

The state would have probably built most or all of that.

They'll need a source of income sooner rather than later I'd say. Divesting schools will be on the cards.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339091#Comment_120339091

OK, so you want every school to be an ETB school. Okay.

So there will be no choice, the ETB will have a monopoly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342170#Comment_120342170

Quick trade, write off the billions of restitution owed for all the kiddy fiddling carried out by priests over the years, and the abuses covered up by the church. They could hand over all church owned land to the state and still owe a few quid at the end of the day.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342032#Comment_120342032

The Irish people paid for these schools and this land, and now the catholic church is extorting the Irish people to pay for these schools and this land all over again.

Showing their tru€ colour$ once again.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342033#Comment_120342033

The reduction in clerical sexual abuse nowadays is due to the fact that no parent with firing brain cells would let their kids near a priest unsupervised

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342040#Comment_120342040

Those who can't afford the fees and don't go to church "enough".

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342287#Comment_120342287

The problem here is even if the state did pay for the building of the schools on the religious orders land the buildings will still belongs to the religious orders as it is on their land.

However the state has probably got itself into a position where a religious order cant eject the school (not that they want to anyway)

We seem to be in a position where the religious order are the full owners of the schools but the state has a perpetual right to use the land as a school with no rent attached as long as the religious orders religion is taught there. The situation is certainly a win for the taxpayer.

Hotblack Desiato

Look up "ground rent". Lots of houses were built on (British absentee landlord's) land without a freehold title, it didn't mean the lord owned the house.

There is a restrictive zoning on almost all school grounds in urban areas - schools can't just be knocked on a whim and turned into apartments. Although in several cases religious orders have flogged off playing fields used by schools for decades to cash in, and given none of that cash to the school, this was permitted because the land the school was on was protected but not the playing fields.

Yet again, when there was a choice between what was right and what was profitable, the catholic church chose the latter.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343276#Comment_120343276

You are referring to leasehold property? When a lease expires all the buildings and fixtures belong to the freeholder even if the leaseholder built the building.

So if I lease land from the freeholder and then build a house on it and then the lease expires the building belongs to the freeholder. I cant come in day after the lease expires and remove the bricks on the justification i paid for them.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343230#Comment_120343230

That's generally how any commercial transaction occurs, if you can't afford it then you don't get it.

You'll have to expand upon the going to church bit, I know a few lads who went to private schools and they never mentioned a church quota, plus boards seems to be a place for people to over egg the pudding by quite a bit.

Hotblack Desiato

Leases up to 9999 years long are legally recognised. Again please educate yourself on the history of the land war in Ireland and the 20th century ground rents problem. The Irish state was able to force landlords to sell the freehold for "ground rented" residential properties for quite a low sum.

I do find it wonderfully ironic that we are comparing the roman catholic church to rack-renting British absentee landlords

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343360#Comment_120343360

First of all the state does not even lease the land from the religious orders. The religious orders are still in possession and occupation of the land. The point being made before is just because the state may pay for an extension or new build on religious orders land does not make the state the legal owner of the building. The state and religious orders are in a complex position where the orders own the land and buildings but they cant take full control of the property and the state has the right to use the land for schools.

"The Irish state was able to force landlords to sell the freehold for "ground rented" residential properties for quite a low sum"

That is still the case. Any leaseholder of a residential property can buy out the freeholder via Landlord Tenant Act. What is your point? Are you trying to say the state can buy out the religious orders? 1. The state is not leasing from the religious orders first of all so Landlord Tenant Acts dont apply and 2. The land is not residential. There is nothing in law that can allow the state to force the religious orders sell their land for pittance. This might not suit your ideology but that is the fact.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343247#Comment_120343247

A loss for the taxpayer. Having paid for the land and the schools they still don't own them.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343641#Comment_120343641

We are talking about schools on land owned by religious orders. Ie land that was never bought for by the state/taxpayer.

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343732#Comment_120343732

Paid for by the donations of local communities.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342694#Comment_120342694

No I do not want multi denominational schools. I want the state to fund non denominational schools only.

There will be a choice. If you want religous schools that should be funded by the religion and its members and not the state.

I am not saying private schools cannot exist just that they should not be state funded.

The choice remains.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343348#Comment_120343348

It's common in the UK and US which is what the other poster (doing the usual "catholic schools are better there, so let's keep them as the only option here" crap) was referring to

Given a choice between churchgoing parents with the cash and just parents with the cash, they choose the former.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344019#Comment_120344019

ETB schools (primary and secondary) are in many cases catholic schools by the back door anyway. Especially if it merged with a religious ethos school in the past. Even though these are fully state owned schools built on state owned land with state funds.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344828#Comment_120344828

You're not making much sense.

Do fee paying Catholic schools have a rule about how often a family has to have attended mass in order to admit their offspring?

Private Catholic schools do seem do a better job than their state run counter parts, but private enterprises tend to do a better job than state run ones in general. no doubt, thanks to lack of meddling from politicians, civil servants, public sector unions etc. More power to 'em. You get what you pay for. Unless you pay for it through taxes, of course.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344019#Comment_120344019

So just to be clear, you suggest that the State finance any school run by any patron, as long as the school is non-denominational.

AFAIK, there are very few, if any non-denominational schools at the moment?

ETB and ET are multi-denominational.

I am curious as to who might be the owners/patrons/providers under your suggested model?

Are you implying that the ETB should become non-denominational?

I wonder what many parents want? I don't think parents necessarily want a massive change to all schools being non-denom, as if that was the case, we would hear a clamour for it.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120345678#Comment_120345678

I am saying in my opinion the state should not fund religious teaching of any kind. And that state funded schools should not be allowed teach any religion.

I'm not either expecting this to happen or suggesting anyone is clamouring for it.

I'm merely offering my opinion on the matter.

Snake Plisken

Good to see the Muslim council having their say on this

https://gript.ie/irish-muslim-council-says-gender-ideology-not-appropriate-for-primary-school-kids/

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120346714#Comment_120346714

Nice ideology but would cost the tax payers billions

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342199#Comment_120342199

I don’t disagree, but forcing their hand and any government seen to be going after the Catholic Church ? We might be still one generation away from that happening …

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120346714#Comment_120346714

Can this be extended to modern religions like gender ideology etc?

For now, for people of all beliefs and none, the religious schools seem to be the ones best placed to oppose enforcing intolerant new ideology in schools.

Given the signalling from Roderic O'Gorman, he wants big changes soon. You can see this in other countries:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/school-suspends-sex-education-independent-review-drag-queen/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-64811129

https://www.tvo.org/article/what-does-an-anti-racist-math-class-look-like

Just for fun, even Star Wars maybe too "problematic" in schools too:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-the-term-jedi-is-problematic-for-describing-programs-that-promote-justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion/

Starfire20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347908#Comment_120347908

crazy that they're is societal resistance to holding an organisation to account that has repeatedly shown it cares more about itself than the welfare of children.

the rcc puts child rapists on a higher footing than their victims and has demonstrated that repeatedly.

a previous poster made the analogy that if it was a childcare provider with the same record as the rcc, there would be jail time for those involved and it would be shut down.

but because it involves a popular mythology, we must make excuses and handle with care.

shameful.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120341976#Comment_120341976

Of course it matters what the source is - goes to credibility. That’s why you didn’t include the source when you made the claim, because you know as well as they do that it was a complete misrepresentation intended to portray the material in such a way as to suggest it was condoning child sexual abuse. That’s why I said the article is neither promoting atheism nor reason, it’s just using fearmongering rhetoric to promote prejudice. I addressed the points btw - they’re bullshìt.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120342003#Comment_120342003

Take his word for what? He doesn’t say in that article anyway that he was fired or that he didn’t hire anyone who wasn’t Catholic? In fact he makes a point of how the school was inclusive of all children -

In our school, I believed that our ethos was the inclusivity which welcomed all children irrespective of creed, background or ability.

Their being non-religious isn’t a barrier to anyone’s employment in religious ethos schools. Like any employer, religious schools will seek the most suitable candidates for the role. That’s what the religious certificate signifies - that they are qualified to teach, to instruct, to indoctrinate children, in the faith. Far more of an issue when it comes to recruiting is everyone is aware the pay is simply shìte, there’s no disguising that elephant in the room.

It’s not a strange type of employment, nor is it any way strange that an employer doesn’t pay an employee a wage when the contract is between two employers - the Church which provide education, and the State which provides for education. Were I to use myself as an example - my employer pays my salary, but I’m an employee of dozens of their clients, who are billed for the services provided by my employer. Contract work is standard business practice.

I get your point, it’s the same point you always make, and that’s why I thought initially you were making a different point this time, I wouldn’t have bothered otherwise. We’ve always been in agreement that our education system is out of step with Irish society, we just disagree on how it should be addressed. The State are responsible for the education system, not the Church, so it’s pointless lying about the Church in the hopes that the State will do anything. It’d be like me claiming that atheists eat babies in the hope that anyone non-religious is suddenly going to join the Church! It’s stupid, and it’s the antithesis of reason. The Church is bad enough without having to exaggerate and lie about it in order to spread misinformation and prejudice based on fearmongering nonsense. That sort of nonsense only renders anyone unable to take the person making the claims seriously, precisely because it’s out of step with their experiences of other people in Irish society who the claims are being made about.

Substitute the word immigrants for the Church in the same argument above, and you’ll get the point. It’s why anti-immigrant types have no traction whatsoever in this country, and why they feel compelled to lie and exaggerate in order to try and instill fear and resentment of immigrants in Irish society. It’s also why their efforts amount to nothing, precisely because people know from their own experiences of immigrants that their lies are just that. Same thing with people who are religious and those who aren’t - it’s only a vanishingly small number who will try and generate conflict by lying and exaggerating about others who don’t share their ideas, but they get no traction because people know better from their own experiences of the people whom that person is making claims about, people who happen to be their family, friends, neighbours, as opposed to some abstract entity that is any sort of a threat to Irish society.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120344019#Comment_120344019

Please Google "non-denominational church", learn what the phrase realky means, and then get back to us about whether thats really what you want.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120345230#Comment_120345230

My post made perfect sense, I'm sorry for your troubles.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120345678#Comment_120345678

A majority of parents have said in surveys going back almost 20 years now that they would prefer non-religious patronage schools.

Good article in today's Irish Times

The Catholic Church controls 88 per cent of primary schools

About half of these are in areas where there is no alternative

Teaching religious education each day in the classroom for the “required amount of time”, which is 2½ hours per week

This, incidentally, is more than is given to PE.

In fact, in the developed world, only Israel devotes more time to religion in primary school than Ireland does.

Churches are half-empty. So why does the Catholic Church still control so many of our primary schools?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/09/14/churches-are-half-empty-so-why-does-the-catholic-church-still-control-so-many-of-our-primary-schools/

Shoog

The easy way to take the catholic church out of education is for the state to stop paying for it to run schools. The church doesn't actually pay anything to control our education system so they would soon pull out if they had to pick.up the actual bill.

In 2024, in modern progressive Ireland, we are still subjected to this absolute nonsense, from an organisation that has a history of abusing children at school:

"A few months ago the Archdiocese of Dublin sent Catholic primary schools in the greater Dublin area a reminder of the need to uphold their ethos. It told school boards to ensure there was a “crucifix in every classroom, an image of Our Lady or the patron saint, and a sacred space in each classroom”. It also reminded them of the importance that all teaching staff hold religious certificates – a requirement for teaching religion according to the tenets of the Catholic faith – and ensure any candidate for a job is made aware of the school’s “schedule”. This is a reference to the mission statement of the school, which typically outlines its roles in inculcating in children a very specific set of religious doctrines. The missive also notes the importance of teaching religious education each day in the classroom for the “required amount of time”, which is 2½ hours per week."

spacetweek

How irrelevant will the church need to get in Ireland, and how many more abuse scandals, before Irish parents come round to the idea that religious faith should not be part of your formal education?

Someone mentioned that faith schools in the UK and USA academically outperform the rest. This is because they are privately run and the bar for entry is higher which demonstrates greater effort on the part of the parents which has been proven to be the primary determinant of the pupil’s performance.

As for just asking the parents what they want, in many areas a majority don’t want to rock the boat and fear disrupting their local school as they’d worry about the impact on grades which would be short term at worst. This is a situation where asking the parents might be counterproductive as there are broader societal goals here, i.e. it’s in Ireland’s interest not to indoctrinate children into an austere religion.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122614647#Comment_122614647

My impression is that a lot of parents are happy with what they know, and some of the perceived "wokery" and lower educational standard in newer "educate together" type schools are not creating a good impression of an alternative.

Also, given that there's only about 2000 priests left in Ireland, probably none of them teaching primary, and most will be dead soon, what scandals are you expecting in future?

Not that paedophiles will disappear when the clergy does, so the present and future scandals will come from other people places.

ThePentagon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122615519#Comment_122615519

I agree largely with this. I think most parents are fine with sending their kids to Catholic schools because they themselves went to Catholic schools - they turned out fine so why shouldn't their kids?

I think you're right about the Educate Together alternative. My sister has taught primary in both ET and more conventional Catholic schools and her summation is that while the goal of the Catholic schools is to provide education, ET is more interested in promoting "self-esteem". Many parents probably prefer a more robust if "conservative" education for their kids, rather than some of the dubious elements they may associate with ET.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338729#Comment_120338729

The Kinihans would be better patrons of schools than the church.