Why does the Catholic Church still have control over some schools in Ireland? It's time this changed

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122625186#Comment_122625186

The protect the institution mindset absolutely still exists.

Just look at the orders still refusing to hand over records, or pay restitution (even though they'd previously agreed to) and the lengths the CBs are going to to frustrate civil cases taken against them.

Then there's the whole moving assets into trusts thing, again to frustrate victims seeking their due recompense.

Very doubtful that there was ever any real justification for having churches so heavily involved in schools, but there certainly is no such justification today.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122625345#Comment_122625345

Indeed. The system needs to get a lot more diverse. That means communities need to step up to the plate. Or we get a state run monoculture that is different, butcstill as bad as what we have now.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122625186#Comment_122625186

We all know the bouncy castle catholics won't show up on Sunday morning for indoctrination. Far too much effort involved for them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122625067#Comment_122625067

It’s not a complete strawman of my invention at all. The systematic abuse of children in their care is the reason why posters are arguing that the RCC should have no responsibility for education in national schools. That’s the strawman - in that one has literally nothing to do with the other. The Department of Education sent out a circular to all national schools in 1982 making the administration of corporal punishment a matter for disciplinary action. It took the State another 30 years to change Irish law to remove ‘reasonable chastisement’ as a defence for the administration of corporal punishment. It applied not just in all national schools, but in all areas of public life, and in the home too. That’s how to address the issue of the abuse of children - by changing policies and by changing Irish law to make it known to everyone that the behaviour is not acceptable and won’t be tolerated in Irish law which governs Irish society and applies to everyone regardless of their religion or anything else.

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/education/1982/09.pdf

https://merrionstreet.ie/en/category-index/society/child-protection/%E2%80%98end_corporal_punishment%E2%80%99_as_removal_of_defence_takes_effect.103653.shortcut.html

It should be removed because our education system places a grossly excessive emphasis on religion, and does not respect the rights of non-catholic pupils, parents and teachers.

This, as an argument in its own right, at least has some solid logic behind it. The State needs to come down with much greater force on schools which are in violation of a child’s right to attend a state-aided school without being required to participate in religious instruction. It’s a question of enforcement of existing law, without seeking to introduce new rules or policies or laws which would violate the existing rights of others.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122623883#Comment_122623883

Don't know if you're referring to me but as someone who was permitted to be abused by a 'godly' man for 20 years and then threatened with murder for being gay, a catholic is not how I would describe myself. Although, in an attempt to not be murdered I did return to the church at one point in the hope that might mitigate my 'sins' and gave the local parish a treat. Once the local preacher had an audience the sermons became a little like Massachusetts in 1693. I remember on one occasion specifically while regaling the verses of Matthew, (5:26) how he looked at me with his steely cold lifeless eyes and declared "Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny." He drooled in delight at his achievement and here's what happened after that.

Covid hit and every church door was shut. While the regulars continued to receive their daily bread at home, what was left of them on return opted to remain in the comfort of their living rooms and attend services virtually. As a result that particular denomination, which had been in my city for 800 years, decided they no longer going to maintain a presence and left. They were closely followed by a completely separate denomination who also had a presence since the middle ages. It almost made me believe that there was a god.

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

I am sure of one thing though, the church will pay every last penny that they owe.

Iscreamkone

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41477773.html

I’d like to see countrywide numbers for those under 50. Why do religious congregations even want control of the schools if their “plan” is not working?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122629510#Comment_122629510

I'm sorry that happened to you.

Wasn't responding to you though, but to downtheroad's post about the diversity champion who takes her kids to Catholic ceremonies.

csirl

This is how "hands off" the Department of Education is re: child abuse. Relative shared with me recent correspondence from the Minister for Education (in response to complaint about their inaction).

"The Department has no powers to investigate child protection concerns."

"Under the Education Act 1998 the Board of Management of the school is the body charged with the direct governance of a school and its the Board of Management which employs the staff at the school. The Board of Management is accountable to the Patron of the school." [i.e. it is not accountable to the Department].

"Whereas the Department of Education provides funding and policy direction for schools, the Department, does not have the powers to instruct schools to follow a particular course of direction..."

From the horses mouth - the Dept can make a school do anything.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122629559#Comment_122629559

It's a desperate bid to avoid further decline. They know they need to them in as children to even have a hope of their indoctrination working. If they lose that, all there is for them to do is to wait out the clock.

Hotblack Desiato

@csirl I presume that was "the Dept can't make a school do anything" - it's a crazy state of affairs. It's very very odd indeed that a patron, which does not fund schools at all, and the selection of which parents have at best limited input into, can have such an effect on what happens inside a school.

And that's just the day-to-day stuff I mean, not what happens when something really bad like abuse occurs.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632778#Comment_122632778

Waiting out the clock is what they are doing really, same with the politicians who (like they did before, with abortion) desperately want to avoid the glaring issues staring them in the face with education. Let the status quo "see them out" until retirement and then it's someone else's problem.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633063#Comment_122633063

Politicians kicking the can down the road is nothing new, sadly. At least they have the excuse of being incentivised to do so by election cycles. God knows it happens more than enough here in the UK with the wretched NHS. What makes the situation with the Catholic Church different is the damage its malign influence has wrought on Irish society and generations of Irish children. I've had a quick look through this thread and seen the same desperate defensive tactics like whataboutery and cherrypicking.

A state that can unilaterally confiscate someone's property is not something anyone wants but I hope that at least the Church's schools are not getting taxpayer funding or subsidies. I'd want to see a hard line taken there at the very least.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633031#Comment_122633031

Fully agree.

IMHO one of the worst aspects of the Ministers reponse is that she is referring victims of abuse back the abusing organisation - the catholic church (Patron) (bearing in mind the reason they wrote to the Minister was because Patron did nothing).

BTW there's a distinct lack of empathy or sympathy in the letter. Just legalistic jargon which essentially says the Minister doesnt care.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122626213#Comment_122626213

How in your mind do you envision communities should "step up"?

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633214#Comment_122633214

+1

And where communities do step up, it can be frustrated by the catholic church. In my area there are parents seeking a new co-ed secondary school. ETB has said it would run the school. But it wont be built. The reason being that numbers in the two catholic schools in the area - one boys, one girls - are dropping, so D/Education doesnt think there is a demand - "....there are plenty of school places in existing schools...."

Fails to see that numbers are dropping because the two schools are considered to be failed schools and a large number of parents are sending their kids to schools outside the area.

If a new ETB school was built, it would be filled to the brim and one or both of the catholic schools would be unviable.

If de-vesting were proposed, the parents of kids living in the area, but not attending the catholic schools dont get asked/cant vote in a poll. One of the flaws of the devesting process is that all parents in the community are not consulted.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122633214#Comment_122633214

It's just meaningless, arrogant victim blaming from the champions of the status quo. "It's your own fault." "Build your own school."

Hotblack Desiato

@csirl Got it in a nutshell, the divestment process is a farce and designed to fail.

e.g. from a few years ago - 8 RCC schools in the Malahide area, enough parental demand to divest at least two. RCC and school principals carry out a campaign of FUD and outright lies (Christmas will be cancelled, no school outings, other bizarre stuff) and convince a majority in each school to oppose any change. So 100% of the schools remain under RCC control.

Larbre34

Hospitals were divested from religious operation over a span of about 40 years.

Its a simple enough proposition. You make all State investment, expansion plans, mergers etc, contingent on the school in question embarking on its divestment process.

Play ball, or leave the pitch.

Gloomtastic!

Just mentioning again as I did in the other abuse thread, Michael D Higgins’ relationship with the pope. Four private meetings.
Not a mention of compensation though. Isn’t that something a social justice warrior would do?

https://president.ie/en/diary/details/president-has-a-private-audience-with-pope-francis

Hotblack Desiato

Our politicians of all stripes really do pander waaaay too much to religion in general.

I watched Higgins' 2nd inauguration on TV - it was practically a fecking mass.