Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467083#Comment_121467083

Not true.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466163#Comment_121466163

Well they should have gotten married.

We lived together as a couple for half a dozen years, grand but once we decided to start a family then we got married. Marriage is the traditional legal structure that protects the interests of all in the family: mother, father and children resultant.

If people don't want to be married, they should understand the consequences.

The constitution is fine as it is. These proposed changes will crash & burn as stated above.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466552#Comment_121466552

It’s not waffle, claiming “a woman’s place is where she wants it to be”, is waffle, when in reality that determination is influenced by economic circumstances influenced by economic and social policies.

Such as the introduction of Child Benefit for example when it was first introduced was paid to fathers to support and encourage large families, changed to being paid to the mother around 30 years later in accord with the rest of Europe and became colloquially known as the ‘housewife’s payment’.

You’re free as I am to regard it as inconsequential, but it matters when Government are saying one thing, but their actions (or indeed lack thereof) have led to the current circumstances in which the vast majority (in the region of 98% again) of lone parents claiming lone parents allowance, are women. They’re claiming the payment out of economic necessity because they are invariably living in poverty with trying to care for their families on a pittance.

What matters in terms of being able to support their families isn’t whether a household is one income or two income, what matters is the household income. That’s why I’m more interested in what legislative reform comes from the passing of the referendum, which is of far greater significance than rhetoric which is merely symbolic in nature but has little meaningful impact in Irish law, nor is it still reflective of modern Irish society.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467016#Comment_121467016

Round and round we go…….

Celmullet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467238#Comment_121467238

Yup. That's why I mentioned how it can be interpreted in different ways in my post way back in March (that was dragged up, I had happily left this thread behind nine months ago!).

My opinion on it hasn't changed.

Those words can be seen by some as nothing major and doesn't impact society, but can also be interpreted by others as a way to manipulate women back into the home, as happened during the marriage bar.

Better to get it removed and save ourselves a potential future where those who want to control our society can't have this loophole in the constitution to do it with.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467359#Comment_121467359

I’m perplexed as to how you imagine the current wording could be used as a way to manipulate women back into the home, when it hasn’t managed to do that in the nearly 100 years it’s been in the Constitution. Rather it was included as an acknowledgement of the contribution to Irish society of women who worked in the home, an acknowledgement that without their contribution to Irish society, the common good would not be achievable. Their contribution to Irish society was conceived as invaluable to the common good.

That sentiment took a back seat when put against the reality of economic growth and prosperity which needed a greater supply of labour in order to maintain itself, which requires Government placing greater emphasis on facilitating women’s entry into the workforce, than the emphasis the Constitution requires of them to acknowledge the contribution to society of women working in the home, fulfilling a role which speaks to the importance of the Family as the natural and primary fundamental unit group in Irish society.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466892#Comment_121466892

To be fair, all they have to look at is the people that were asking for a no vote and their motives. It really is a "I want to vote no but don't want to share my real motives so I'll make up some vague reason" and add a tag about personal feelings to distance themselves from any debate.

Celmullet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467672#Comment_121467672

If you don't think this had an impact on women in the last 100 years, you should probably read up on the Marriage Ban and how this piece of legislation solidified it in Irish society until it was overturned by European Law in 1973.

As for how could it be possible? You don't have to look too far for that either, at the moment in the US we are seeing the overturning of rights gained by women, it what most people would deem a progressive country.

If you look at the position of women in society in Iran pre and post 1979, you can see how quickly a regime can disseminate the rights of women.

It is naive to think that Ireland is immune to backsliding, we just need to look at the recent rise in far right ideology not just here but throughout Western countries to see the dangers.

I'm going to repeat what I said all the way back in March before the other person dragged me back into this thread yesterday. I don't foresee this happening any time soon and hope that it never will, but I'd not idealistic enough to believe that it never could. Just as I don't foresee my house burning in a fire, but I keep my fire alarm in check as there is always a risk.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465892#Comment_121465892

I'll be voting "no" as well. All of this is a distraction from real problems and I'm sick of it.

Water John

Oh we're back to 'the world will fall apart' if we pass these referendums. We've heard that cry for far too long.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467156#Comment_121467156

So in your world, all families with single parents, all families with unmarried parents are not as important as married units?

They don't deserve protection by our constitution? Unmarried fathers do not deserve to be automatically recognised as fathers to their own children?

Fathers who stay at home to mind their children are not as important as women who do the same job?

Why, do you hate men?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121467156#Comment_121467156

Or we could have a modern country. Tradition isn't inherently virtuous.

Augme

There'll obviously be a cohort who will vote bo because they hate women, gay people and trans people but apart from that I'd expect this referendum to be passed comfortably.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468106#Comment_121468106

Hopefully. I can't picture anyone I know coming out with the reactionary nonsense I've seen here with a straight face.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468106#Comment_121468106

Firstly this referendum won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone in the country and secondly, as a consequence, you can expect a lot of people to vote no because it's a free hit.

How you equate that with hating anyone is beyond reason.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468154#Comment_121468154

People don't care about mens rights? About families rights?

If they don't care, fairly likely they just don't bother to vote. There has only been one referendum in 30 years I didn't vote in, and that was because I didn't care.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468154#Comment_121468154

It might not make a huge differende, but it will be seen as important to most women and plenty of men. Most people's biggest motivation for people to vote will be to ensure it isnt defeated and I think there will be enough dissent to ensure there's a good turn into. Having it on international women's day is also a very shrewd move.

Spanish Eyes

The GRA will feature in this debate sooner or later either with good or bad intent.

A mother can become a father and vice versa. A man can be a woman and vice versa on payment of a fiver I think for a gender recognition cert.

Now I'm not sure what effect getting a GRC would have on the constitutional amendment if passed, but I feel that there is some element of gender equality behind this. I don't agree with GRC as they exist at present. The legislation was sneaked in under cover of the "euphoria" of the same sex marriage referendum. That was quite sly IMO.

In fact the UK parliament yesterday had a debate on the recognition of GRCs. Several countries were excluded from the list of GRCs accepted by UK. Kemi Badenoch (Tory) made an aside reference to a neighbouring country that they were considering for non acceptance. She didn't say which country, but it's a reasonable bet that it's Ireland.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but I can't help feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye. I hope I am totally wrong and over reacting like an idiot. Happy to be told to get help for my delusions.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468097#Comment_121468097

I heard a great quote a while back - "Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people."

When an argument can't be sustained in any other way the fallback to the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy becomes inevitable.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154919#Comment_121154919

Not in law or from a legislative stand point. It is the the layman understanding of it trying to simplify it. No where in the official referendum paper did you find the term 'Marriage Equality'. But it was one the media ran with. I assume similar will be done in any forthcoming referendum on the relevant parts of Article 42.

In my view it is less about 'Gender Equality' but more about putting women who work outside the home higher in the pecking order, than those who chose to stay at home and rear children. Those who are fortunate to be able to so. Where they don't have do so out of economic necessity. I think the real reason is to alleviate women's guilt who chose to work full time and become part time mothers. Especially in the childs formative years. It then becomes the Creches etc who become the de facto parents.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468206#Comment_121468206

Well, I'm really not sure exactly what you're worried about, but at present a male can obtain a gender recognition certificate and as a (now) female, will be afforded special rights and protection under our constitution.

Dunno if that makes you feel better or worse!

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468324#Comment_121468324

Not worried, just thinking out loud and musing as I do sometimes.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468206#Comment_121468206

Garda Representative Association? I guess they have been pretty bolshie lately...

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468001#Comment_121468001

The whole point of marriage is put a legal framework on parental relationships that flows to many aspects. Marriage protects women, children & men.

People are free to make other arrangements and take the consequences but let's not pretend they off the same legal structure as marriage for a family.

It's nothing to do with religion either - marriage is a civil matter.

Spanish Eyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468341#Comment_121468341

Ha ha. Now that you mention it, they did have something to say about the GR Act if I recall rightly!

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468097#Comment_121468097

Or we can trust tradition. Tradition exists for very good reason.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468388#Comment_121468388

The world moves on. Traditions evolve and change.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468396#Comment_121468396

Then they are not traditions any more. Tradition in such matters is set over centuries, not a few years.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468255#Comment_121468255

A slight tangent but we have had for at least 30 years now policy initiatives that led to one core outcome - less children being born.

Women in careers is clearly a big factor in the declining birth rate but there are others.

The irony here is that we are getting in to a population crisis and inevitably a lot of this will have to be reversed and women will have to be encouraged to raise more children.

I don't know what the solutions are going to be but the path we are on is grim.

There will not be enough productive young prople to sustain living standards in this country or provide for their parents in the future.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468427#Comment_121468427

UBI will help as it will allow more parents (dad's can raise kids too!) to stay at home and look after children.