Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759645#Comment_121759645

You need to stop letting politicians like Michael McDowell play you. He made the application because as a lawyer and former government minister he knew very well that it would be rightly refused and give him the opportunity to spin his story.

Read the the texts and the advice provided by the electoral commission, you know the ones that are required to give you the actual information rather than politicians who are free to spin it whatever what suits them. The texts extend the aspirations already expressed in the constitution they neither require nor restrict the Dail in taking any action.

For instance:

“The State recognises that the provision of care, by members of a family to one another by reason of the bonds that exist among them, gives to Society a support without which the common good cannot be achieved, and shall strive to support such provision.”

Nothing in that text requires action, the state can try to do something and acceptable fail due to a lack of finances, circumstances out side there control such as wide scale protests and all the rest.

The only politician better at spinning a lie than Michael McDowell is Michael Gove, both of them can look you in the eye and tell you a whopper. Thankfully the majority of Irish voters are sophisticated enough to have seen through himself and the PDs a long time ago.

Hotblack Desiato

Let's not forget that the esteemed legal mind of McDowell was attorney-general at the time and totally fine with the ridiculous 2002 referendum which wanted to insert detailed abortion legislation into the constitution in a completely bizarre and unprecedented fashion. In other words try to fix the mess the 8th amendment created by creating an even bigger mess.

So ever since then I take anything he has to say in relation to the constitution with a rather large amount of salt.

dulpit

Michael McDowell, Aontú, Rónán Mullen and Iona Institute are all for a No vote in this referendum. If this doesn't prove that Yes is the correct answer, then nothing will...

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761468#Comment_121761468

But to others more open minded I'd ask them to look at other self proclaimed no voters like Cathleen Connolly who said in the recent Dáil debate:

"I will go out on a limb and say that I would prefer the existing wording, which is not gender neutral and is of its time… I would have more hope of action under the existing wording in the Constitution than I have with this.

have serious difficulty with promoting this referendum. I have repeatedly classified myself as a very strong feminist. I would use many other adjectives but this is an insult. It is a double insult to hold it on International Women’s Day."

Or Senator Tom Clonan, who was the only representative to bring up the mistreatment of children with scoliosis recently, stating that one child has been permanently paralysed as a result of the HSE not providing treatment, and one family has been told that if their child isn't treated that he will die in agony. He has a particular interest in this area as he has a disabled child. He recognises that the wording of the referendum is such that it will give the State an out from providing care in the home.

Specifically the replacing of the State shall take reasonable measures to support care within and without the family with the State shall strive to support such provision. He has stated that the wording

"does not vindicate the rights of disabled citizens."

It also goes against the specific wishes of the Citizens Assembly which stated:

"Article 41.2 of the Constitution should be deleted and replaced with language that … and obliges the State to take reasonable measures to support care within the home and wider community"

The wording of the bill is available here.

So there's two large political characters that are also expressing severe doubts about the referendum. You can remain as blinkered as you like because you disagree with the political stance of some of those against the referendum, hey, you do you. But others who read this may be more open minded.

Photobox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761468#Comment_121761468

I have seen some articles and letters written by feminists who find it strange that they are on the same 'side' as those you have listed bit are still voting No.

Hamsterchops

Just heard something about CEDAW?

..... or something like that, and apparenrly Ireland is signed up to it.

1800_Ladladlad

Fianna Fail's Minister for Sport and Physical Education Thomas Byrne who is of courrse calling for a “Yes” vote in both referendums, in line FF. He tweet's:

Congratulations to Ursula Scully and Laura Finnegan O’Halloran on their election to the Board of FAI. Very welcome to see one of Ireland’s leading national sporting bodies now meeting the 40% gender balance requirements on its board.

Isn't it amazing how the reference to women in the Constitution didn’t hold both of these women back, confine them to the home, and keep them chained to the kitchen sink with an iron hanging from the hip?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761937#Comment_121761937

Most Irish feminists are supporting 2 Yes votes. I have seen a few people (not sure Id call them feminist) that are promoting a no based on trans exclusionary campaigns and anti trans conspiracies.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762370#Comment_121762370

But yet a gender quota helped get them elected to the board?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761937#Comment_121761937

I think feminists should be in quotes along with side in that post....

1800_Ladladlad

https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1757117252690727268

Were told Voting ‘Yes’ will put pressure on the government to give tangible support to carers. O'Gorman has said a 'Yes' vote will help secure care funding. But he's the Minister - that is 100% at his government's discretion. They could do that at any time. Is this not tantamount to saying "Vote yes and we might find the will to do something"? The fact that funding care is being invoked here seems to be a way of saying "If you vote yes, we'll reward you with this."

“But amid concerns from the No side that the new amendment on care would be legally meaningless, Mr O’Gorman was not able to promise that the government’s wording would give carers the right to take the state to court for concrete socioeconomic supports.

Irish Independent

Remember that Minister O'Gorman said ‘Progressive orgs must explain any decision not to support the referendum'? I found a Government Minister threatening unelected & unaccountable state-funded (taxpayer) NGOs that they better support the Government or risk funding. There has never been a referendum where the government hasn’t wheeled out ‘civil society’ groups to win a vote for a case it cannot make. Remember the 'national women's council of Ireland' is nearly entirely reliant on government (public) money with 96% of staff costs over the past 3 years being paid for directly by grants from government depts & other publicly funded entities. The nWc?

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762527#Comment_121762527

Anti trans conspiracies?

Tell us more ...

thomas 123

Can anyone give me one good reason to vote yes on these?

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761468#Comment_121761468

Ryan, O Gorman, and Leo are all for a yes vote, so I think Ill vote No and No. They've destroyed the country enough thank you very much.

keano_afc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762527#Comment_121762527

LOL. By "anti trans conspiracies" I assume you mean being able to define what a woman is.

Real Donald Trump

This thread really should've have a poll

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762527#Comment_121762527

Have you got a link for that?

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764756#Comment_121764756

I forgot that this is Boards CA forum. Worse than the Journal's comments section.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762874#Comment_121762874

From the people creating policies that incentivise care homes closing to be reopened as refugee centres. I will be voting against anything they back.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765855#Comment_121765855

maybe you should go find a more suitable echo chamber than more closely aligns with your personal views then?

Can you give a single good reason to vote yes?

Furze99

Anyone hear Thomas Byrne and someone from the Womens Council on radio this morning, arguing the case for these?

Neither could explain what a durable relationship is and when Byrne was reduced to smearing the other speakers, he was destroyed.

As for the Womens Council rep, extraordinary to hear her calling for the removal of supportive words towards women.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767713#Comment_121767713

I've had a couple of discussions about this too and have heard a few conversations on the radio. Not a single person calling for a yes-yes vote can tell us what is meant and defined as a durable relationship. If there is no definition, the waters are muddy. The entire referendum is a joke.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766570#Comment_121766570

The only vaguely persuasive argument I've heard to date is that single parent families will now be reflected in the constitution. And this is repeated often. The problem of course is that wording is not specific to this and is so vague as to also allow for recognition of a whole variety of relationships. Byrne was asked this morning at what point say a durable relationship would legally be deemed to be extant: was it a month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, a week. He couldn't answer. Nor could he answer how many people constituted a durable relationship, was it 2, 3, 4, 5...... How a supposedly sensible legislator can canvas for such vague wording is beyond me.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767713#Comment_121767713

Not sure either of them will be back on the media again. Both woeful. How much is the Women's Council person getting paid? Another job for the boys/girls there.

The main issue is what durable relationship means and does it exclude single people from being classed as families. No answer from the Yes side. Very poor.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767713#Comment_121767713

extraordinary to hear her calling for the removal of supportive words towards women.

Yes, the 1930s really were a wellspring of such words

Women, know your limits. In thought be plain and simple and let your natural sweetness shine through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768428#Comment_121768428

Do you really think the constitution should get into that sort of minutiae?

e.g. you can have a divorce only if you are separated for 5 years. The time limit was set in stone in the constitution. That turned out to be a bad idea, and we needed another referendum to remove it so now the constitution does not specify that detail.

The constitution is the broad strokes not the fine details.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770525#Comment_121770525

Of course the constitution is not the place for minutiae. But it is a core document that the courts will ultimately refer to in the case of any legislation. Therefore the wording needs to be precise and not vague waffle like 'durable relationship'.

Hotblack Desiato

For any practical purpose it'll end up being defined in law e.g. social welfare acts for the purpose of qualifying for a survivor's pension, and if the legislation is challenged in the courts they'll decide whether the legislation is compatible with the constitution. It's open to the Oireachtas to define the details within the framework of the constitution, as they already have done e.g. divorce and abortion.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770778#Comment_121770778

Well my read of it is, that the Oireachtas can legislate on matters relating to the concept of a 'durable relationship'. But that then citizens in various other forms of relationships not covered by such legislation, will go to the courts and demand their rights under the constitution. And they will a legitimate right to do so and have the legislation overturned or amended against the wishes of society and the Oireachtas.

smallbeef

Is a 'durable relationship' even confined to humans??