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Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

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    #1412
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 11,100 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781539#Comment_121781539

    That's a very strange view - we live in 2024 not 1937!!

    Leaving aside you're sweeping generalisation that women were 'basically livestock and had no rights' in 1937, even it it had a small semblance of truth, that situation was a function of Irish society in 1937.

    We live in 2024 and Irish society is quite different now. But the current constitution says nothing that limits womens rights - it simply acknowledges their role in home life. It's a positive statement.



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    #1413
    L.Ball
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781801#Comment_121781801

    1) the fact that you're disputing how women were treated back then is telling

    and

    B)if it was a positive statement here would be no need for a referendum to remove it.



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    #1414
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 11,100 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781867#Comment_121781867

    1) are you a woman and were you alive as a mature woman in 1937? If not, then I suggest you're just making it up. Women in any society including Irish society always were, still are and will be in the future fundamental to the family. Labelling them as 'livestock' is frankly misogyny and pretty disgusting imho.

    2) there is no need at all remove this article..



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    #1415
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781867#Comment_121781867

    Its not as if it was universally welcomed in 1937 either

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/3679367.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1416
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Unlike most posters here, I realise that our courts make decisions everyday based on the constitution and vague definitions in law. I'm not afraid that our judges are incapable of correctly deciding on cases based on 'durable relationships '

    No issue.



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    #1417
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781898#Comment_121781898

    Yeah.

    Agreed. I think a lot of it is ridiculous scaremongering really. We even had off the wall ludicrous conspiracies in here the other day that a woman and her dog would become a constitutionally recognised family.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1418
    glitterIsland
    Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭glitterIsland


    The constitution as it is in relation to this, it doesn't force me as a woman to stay at home and I am free to do as I please.  


    I will be voting no because I would like to see women and mothers protected in the constitution.  I know families come in all different ways now but still. I would like to see protection in the constitution for women and mothers. Changing it is unclear and vague.


    I know in America, women are forced to go back to work within hours of giving birth and heck some women even take work into the hospital with them. 


    I would be anxious that if it's removed, it removes the states liability to provide assistance to parents who need it and who may need to stay at home like after childbirth, or single parents, or carers. That part of the constitution ensures that there is state assistance to those who need it for the family. I know it's somewhat sexist by the different world we live in now compared to decades ago with the word woman and it should also now include man but that's not what we are being asked in the referendum. We are not being asked to add 'man or father' to that part of the constitution'.



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    #1419
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782046#Comment_121782046

    it removes the states liability to provide assistance to parents who need it and who may need to stay at home like after childbirth, or single parents, or carers. 

    But it doesn't provide for that now.



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    #1420
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭Caquas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781539#Comment_121781539

    How sad to read this nonsense and to realise that people today harbour such poisonous and demented opinions about of our forebears who endorsed our Constitution guaranteeing equality for all our citizens. Did you ever meet any of women from that generation? I would love to see anyone try to tell either of my grandmothers that they were being treated as livestock😱

    The Irish women and men of that generation fought to win our freedom against the greatest empire the world ever saw and in 1938, 16 years after the Treaty that ended the War of Independence and while much of Europe was in the grip of Fascism, they gave to themselves a Constitution which owed nothing to our former Imperial masters and which has outlasted almost every other Constitution in the world.

    The status of women has rightly changed and the Constitution has changed accordingly. The provisions in question have been no barrier to the progress of women in Ireland and benefitted married women for tax purposes in the Murphy judgement.

    But now we are asked to replace these texts with undefined language to be inserted into our Constitution for no stated reason other than a bitter and distorted view of our history.

    Post edited by Caquas on


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    #1421
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    And of course after reading #1412 anybody can identify as a woman if they wish, which really muddies the waters 🤔



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    #1422
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782208#Comment_121782208

    But many Irish women rejected the constitution in 1937 and it did restrict women. How sad that you try to pretend it was universally welcomed by women in 1937 and try to pretend it had no negative effects on women.


    https://twitter.com/electionlit/status/777282815775936512?t=qboJduKvTL-LgR9g_ebAwg&s=19
    https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0201/1429663-ireland-conditions-of-employment-act-1936-women-workplace-discrimination-/
    https://irishelectionliterature.com/2021/11/12/podcast-the-womens-social-and-progressive-league/


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1423
    MilkyToast
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782273#Comment_121782273

    I see you’ve come across this online at some point today and intend to keep attempting to use it to divine what applies to adult human females in 2024.

    It’s unsurprising that some people disagreed on a political issue. What point are you attempting to make? Lots of women rejected women’s suffrage - pretty much everywhere it’s been applied. Are you in favour of rolling back women’s right to vote?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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    #1424
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782208#Comment_121782208

    This article was met with widespread disagreement with the women in Ireland at the time.

    like most things, women's opinions was disregarded. About time we stood up for those women in 1930s Ireland who had No one to stand up for them.



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    #1425
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782265#Comment_121782265

    It doesn't really, as it takes the term woman and mother out of the constitution.



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    #1426
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782282#Comment_121782282

    There has been an attempt to rewrite history and pretend that the constitution was universally welcomed and that the articles being debated had no negative effects on women.

    I won't dignify the rest of the personal snarks with a response either.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1427
    MilkyToast
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    All political issues are publicly debated, and there are always disagreements. This is a non-point.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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    #1428
    Ionraice
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Ionraice



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781539#Comment_121781539

    Thats a bit vague. What is it endorsing, and how? Show me the words you object to.



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    #1429
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭combat14


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777034#Comment_121777034

    any they certainly dont care about "care" as we have seen the last 10-12 years



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    #1430
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781933#Comment_121781933

    It's the usual ridiculous hilarious histrionic behaviour.

    my most durable relationship for the last almost 50 years has been with a teddy bear and a dog, I'm not stupid enough to think that our supreme court justices would ever decide we were a family🙄🙄



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    #1431
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782334#Comment_121782334

    Not at all

    There are attempts to portray the enactment of the constitution as universally welcomed by all. Not true. There are attempts to claim the existing articles had no negative effects. Not true. It is all very relevant.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1432
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,301 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Isn't it gas that this thread is nearly a year old,and not one poster has managed to articulate a single reason to vote yes to this referndum....apart from the hystericals who are obsessed about the past...


    Not one woman in this country will be adversely affected by a no vote, not one, a yes vote on the other hand means we can realistically expect the eradication of the term woman from more aspects of our lives, and see more instances of the use of mysogynistic terms like "birthing people"and "people with a cervix" and "chest feeders"....the fact that it is feminists that are the one's advocating this is simply sad....you can see why the tide has turned on them, the poor misfortunes can't see what is coming!!!

    Post edited by Silentcorner on


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    #1433
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭Caquas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782287#Comment_121782287

    Why do people today have such contempt for women of that era? How sad if that is driving a vote to change our Constitution.

    Women had the vote, were well able to express themselves and did not take to being patronised by anyone. How many people today actually knew any women who from the 1930s or even the 1950s? As I child, I knew my grandmothers and grand-aunts and some older neighbours. They had lived different lives but all were dignified and respected. It is despicable and absurd to think of them as being treated like livestock.

    Social conditions were terrible in the 1930s and the transformation of our society in recent decades, especially the status of women, has been a great achievement for which we should be grateful to those women and men who laid the foundations of this State, its place in the world and our current prosperity (but don’t blame them for the mess we are making in housing, healthcare and much else which these referendums won’t help)

    The Constitution was approved by a clear majority. Opposition came from many quarters, including both the IRA and the Blueshirts (who wanted the Catholic Church to be the State religion) but there is no evidence that a majority of women opposed the Constitution.

    Article 41 has been no hindrance to social progress and it gave working women a massive boost in the Murphy judgement. The proposed amendments won’t help women - how could they when they will eliminate the words woman and mother from the (operative) Constitution.

    Post edited by Caquas on


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    #1434
    baldbear
    Registered Users Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭baldbear


    The current wording in the constitution is outdated but replacing it with the below is an absolute insult to the thousands of carers out their. " Reasonable measures" is outrageous and does nothing for people who are in desperate situations.

    Article 41.2 of the Constitution should be deleted and replaced with language that is not gender specific and obliges the State to take reasonable measures to support care within the home and wider community.

    The state means tests carers who have no option but stay at home to look after a loved one with needs. Imagine doing that to people in dire need?

    The state could have added in an obligation to carers with gender neutral language but didn't . They added wishy washy language where they could wriggle out of helping people.

    I am voting no to ensure the state has a legal obligation to protect women/carers and not replace this wording with vague words. Vague does nothing for people in dire need.

    And I hope the woman who was denied the full carers allowance wins her case based on the above current article ,court case set for April. This referendum was conveniently rushed through and set for March. Are they state afraid of loosing? And what the article changed to remove their legal obligations?



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    #1435
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782781#Comment_121782781

    Why do people today have such contempt for women of that era? How sad if that is driving a vote to change our Constitution.

    We don't, some of us know those women, and I will take the advise of my grandmothers before some random on the internet!



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    #1436
    InAtFullBack
    Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781898#Comment_121781898

    Are you fine with many of the judgements passed by a certain judge who shares a surname of Nolan?

    I'd shudder to think if a case relating to the above ever landed in his realm.

    Surely you'd agreee?

    Or do you think every tentacle of the Irish state is infallible?



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    #1437
    MilkyToast
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782683#Comment_121782683

    Can you link to one of these posts that said that the constitution as ratified in 1937 was universally welcomed by all?

    Or list the negative effects of the relevant articles and the references to them in the policies and legislation that brought about those negative effects?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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    #1438
    MilkyToast
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121781898#Comment_121781898

    Did you feel the same way about our wonderful judges prior to homosexuality, same-sex marriage, and abortion being legalised in Ireland, or it this more of a pick-your-particular-issue-to-blindly-trust-unknown-future-people-about sort of a deal?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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    #1439
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782954#Comment_121782954

    Read the thread yourself. You will find a) the posts I am discussing b) links to your question.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1440
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121782868#Comment_121782868

    Well Judge Nolan is a circuit court judge, who averages probably around 40 sentences a week. You only know him, because some people make an issue out of one or two of those sentences a month. So, he neither sits on the High court or Supreme court, so he won't be hearing such cases.

    The Supreme court hears cases in front of 3,5 or occasionally 7 judges, who must come to a minority decision on a case.

    No, not everything in the state is infallible, I would be happy enough with decisions by a majority of supreme court judges though.



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    #1441
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,720 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776971#Comment_121776971

    Nobody's going to be forced to do anything. Ridiculous bullshit.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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