Referendum on Gender Equality (THREADBANS IN OP)

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121842883#Comment_121842883

Shame on these Law Professors for jumping into the debate at this late stage with a thoroughly one-sided analysis which avoids all the points raised by the former AG and others.

Their conclusion is hardly reassuring - Vote Yes: it's not as risky as you might think!

Of course, they start their letter with a Strawman argument

The wilder speculation assumes the amendment grants durable relationships a status similar to marriage

The Professors' key assertion seems reassuring but you need to read it carefully.

It would not be possible for an individual to claim tax, succession or social welfare entitlements simply on the basis that they are in a durable relationship. It is therefore not necessary to have detailed rules for when durable relationships end.

OK, so rights in regard to tax, succession or social welfare entitlements would not arise “simply on the basis that they are in a durable relationship” but that's not what the No side is arguing. The No side says such rights could arise in favour of a constitutionally-recognised Family i.e. a social unit with "inalienable and imprescriptible" rights. If the amendment passes, these rights accrue even if the family is based on nothing more than a "durable relationship".

The Professors assure us that the Courts are well used to defining the meaning of words and that the Constitution is full of terms that need defining. True, but the Constitution has never had language which is deliberately obscure!

To see the effect of family on our laws, just look at the recent O’Meara case where it was deemed to be a breach of the existing equality provisions of the Constitution to deny a widower's pension to an unmarried man where his family, although not recognised under the existing Article 41, served the same social function as a family based on marriage. Disgracefully, the Government guillotined the Oireachtas debates on the amendment the day after this bombshell judgment upended our longstanding pension rules. The Professors don't even try to reconcile this landmark judgement with their sweeping assertions of "no change".

And shame on the Law Professors for ignoring the unfortunate woman whose case, based on the existing Article 41, will be heard next month. If we foolishly accept the Government's nonsense amendment, her case will have to start from scratch and her status as a mother will no longer have any Constitutional value.

The Professor's letter also claims the amendment won’t give any right of residence under immigration rules but read the next letter on the IT letters page - it sets out the background to the International Protection Act 2015 and argues that, if this amendment passes, it will support efforts to change the operation and interpretation of the Act in favour of “Families” as defined in our amended Constitution.

I am waiting to see an honest Yes poster - It would say "Vote Yes, you'll feel good and it'll do no harm“.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121842328#Comment_121842328

It’s a fascinating aspect of Irish history that is all too often unfortunately overlooked:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/arid-20210918.html

Caquas

One of the many depressing aspects of referendum campaigns in Ireland is the preponderance of personalities and assertions over information and facts. The current campaigns have been no different and perhaps worse because there are ample reliable data which are relevant to issues such as families, carers and the work of women in the home.

The 2022 Census is a goldmine of up-to-date information on Irish society with special chapters on "Households, Families and Childcare" and on "Disability, Health and Carers". I haven't seen or heard anyone mention any Census data during the current campaign. We are faced with fact-free policies driving campaigns which claim to be changing our Constitution to reflect our society but which give no specific facts about society as it exists now. What hope, then, for a rational debate about the society we want our Constitution to support?

Instead we get blatant misinformation propagated by Government-sponsored NGOs, echoed in the mass media and unchallenged by anyone. You may have seen the many media reports that claim "98% of carers are women". This is simply wrong - the 2022 Census shows that just over 60% of carers in households are women. It is a complex picture with e.g. men more likely to do fewer hours per week but the 98% claim seems simply baseless. Some in the media have been more careful to say the 98% related to "full-time paid carers" but these carers are not the subject of this referendum which is about "care by family members to one another". And there is the real issue - the amendment leaves responsibility for care with family members - but paradoxically the 98% claim is made by the Yes side.

The 98% claim is said to be based on research by Action Aid Ireland and the National Womens Council. Both organisations issued press releases highlighting this claim and said it was based on a recent report. But when I read the Action Aid report, I can't see any basis for the 98% claim and the version released to the media recently gives a reference to the 2016 Census which does not support the claim.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ninety-eight-percent-of-carers-in-ireland-are-women-1639879

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41326300.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/21/ireland-women-equality-referendums-constitution

https://actionaid.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/A-Feminist-Vision-of-Care-and-Economic-Equality.pdf

https://actionaid.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Full-research-paper-on-care-and-economic-inequality.pdf

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835534#Comment_121835534

I've given it quite a lot of thougt, thanks. It's not ideal but it's better than what's in the constitution now, so I'll be voting yes. Shame on you for trying to belttle people with differing opinions.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843021#Comment_121843021

I’m no no and it’s neither a politically motivated vote or a protest vote - it’s simply because there are too many unexplained implications of this amendment - if it’s all just about “outdated language” as the government would have us believe, why not just wait and shove it into a much more important referendum change? Why spend millions on this one?

The government are fast running out of road - given the multiple challenges in this state, theyre just inviting in Mary Loo and her looney party to take over at this stage- 24 caret gild edged invitation.

hotmail.com

One thing I suspect most people would agree with is the confusion and mess of these referendums.

It seems to be either a Yes Yes or a No No. This is being pushed by both sides. Surely someone could vote Yes in one and No in another, but that's not what is being promoted.

The deletion of the women part of the constitution and being replaced by something about 'care' seems completely daft to begin with.

I suspect the turnout will be pitiful and even if these referendums do pass, they will pass by indifference and confusion.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843451#Comment_121843451

Serve up a piece of boll0x to the Irish voters and we’ll tell the government where to go -it’s really that simple - if the government felt so strongly enough about this issue they’d have done a better campaign - it’s obvious there’s no real legal requirement for this amendment - government can choke on their pig trough for all I care - it’s a distraction for far more problems and issues that the government just can’t solve.

The baby boomers of the 60s are about to retire- many don’t have a pension - it’s bloody obvious what’s about to happen - we can all see that this is a smokescreen to try and gain favouritism with the Irish voters with some b0ll0x about gender rights and equality - seriously you’d want to be fierce thick to vote yes to either amendment

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843542#Comment_121843542

It is strange that no senior minister has taken part in any tv or radio debate on the referendums so far.

I suspect they know these referendums are a mess and don't wish to be associated with them.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843451#Comment_121843451

There a lot of people voting Yes in Family and No in Care. See Twitter #VoteYesNo.

I was Yes Yes but will now be Yes No

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843607#Comment_121843607

I'm guessing you've looked into both changes and listened to the debates.

Many people who aren't as interested in these issues as us, just seem confused and unsure what way to vote. I've already heard people saying they're not going to vote because of the confusion. Obviously a few days left and maybe Prime Time will have a debate.

I don't think even the Late Late Show bothered to discuss it.

hotmail.com

If vote day had of fell yesterday with the bad snow affecting half the population, turnout could have been completely disastrous.

If the weather is bad again on Friday, it could be a turnout under 25%. The government will be under pressure to justify running these referendums especially if they have no legal meaning which they allege.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843621#Comment_121843621

With the care referendum disabled people are really angry about the negative affects it will have on them. I read through a lot of them extensively.

This article by Dr Maeve O'Rourke is really good

https://maeveorourke.medium.com/a-right-to-care-and-the-care-referendum-on-8-march-9d6bdc7834ba

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843644#Comment_121843644

It's bonkers they linked a care amendment with removing the women in the home part.

Bonkers. It should never have been presented like this.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843650#Comment_121843650

The citizens assembly and oireachtas committee made very different recommendations to what the government is

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843656#Comment_121843656

Well I don't agree with citizens assembly's to start with. The Oireachtas is our citizens assembly.

Did the assembly have an option to suggest just deleting the women in home part or were they told it had to be replaced.

My issue is that it did not need to be replaced. It just required a referendum to delete it. And I suspect the vast majority would support it.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843621#Comment_121843621

Was thinking the same myself, very little in the way of debate from the very politicians who are proposing said changes.

It's almost like they've given up and consider this vote a goose cooked against them.

Gone are the days of the earth-moving societal changes through voting on the constitution.

It seems Irish society has grown weary of the 'progressive' agenda, threw them a couple of referendums to shut them up, but they keep coming back like the stray cat looking for more scraps.

highpitcheric

if your relationship is that durable and important, then get off your hole and go and get it officially registered.

the whole sacrifice of the associated effort, legal repercussions, formalities and paperwork is the way of proving its something unique and special.

right? open to correction here. just how i see it.

like the pain and investment is the signal that youre actually serious. in a world otherwise full of evasive waffle and bullsht.

if you get a loved ones name tattooed on your body, thats serious, because its permanent, its expensive, it even hurts. Its hard to go back. Thats the point. It sucks but you do it for a greater cause.

if you draw it on with marker, no sacrifice its an empty gesture. you can go back any time.

so if my "durable relationship" is actually something im serious about, and not just a whim, then let me prove this is something special, and not by buying a bag of cans and a cake. go make it legal and costly and troublesome. as a signal that youre serious.

thats my take on it so far, im open to correction. have i missed something.

Caquas

The Sindo Ireland Thinks poll will send shivers through the political establishment.

Yes for the Family amendment at 42%, Yes for the Care amendment at just 39%. Big jump In Don’t Knows, up 12 points to 35% and 36% respectively. That is a massive blow for the Yes,Yes campaigns and the Electoral Commission- the more people hear, they less confident they become.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844111#Comment_121844111

Hard to really tell what way the vote will go.

If it passes or fails, it will pass or fail through indifference and confusion.

It's a complete mess. Given that it's a mess, I wonder if it will persuade people to keep the status quo rather than introduce flawed and imprecise amendments.

Total farce.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844402#Comment_121844402

True - this will be decided by a small minority of the electorate because the vast majority will stay away from the polls.

These issues have been debated for decades and numerous efforts were made to update the language of Article 41. Here's a good summary from 2018 on the work of the Constitutional Convention (never mentioned in the current campaigns). And a report from 1988 to the Oireachtas Committee on Women's Rights (you thought those was the Dark Ages?). And the report of the Citizens' Convention in 2021 which the Government binned.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2018/2018-06-27_l-rs-note-article-41-2-of-the-constitution-women-in-the-home_en.pdf

http://archive.oireachtas.ie/1988/APPENDIX_31051988_1.html

https://citizensassembly.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/report-of-the-citizens-assembly-on-gender-equality.pdf

All of this good work was simply ignored and the two amendments were drafted in a secret process involving meetings with select NGOs. The Government is hiding all documents about this process until after the referendum. The Oireachtas debate was guillotined on the day after the Supreme Court decided an unmarried man was entitled to a widower's pension. And the polling date was immediately fixed before the Supreme Court could hear an urgent appeal based on Art. 41 from a mother caring for her adult son who has serious developmental disabilities. If the amendments pass, her case goes back to zero.

Some Yes campaigners are saying - Don't use this referendum to protest against the Government

I say the best response to this disgraceful, secretive and undemocratic process would be to vote No, No.

That would not disadvantage anyone except the politicians who would be sent back to the drawing board with a flea in their ear. Not a single party politician had the courage to stand on principle. I doubt if any of them would even recognise an issue of conscience if their Party HQ didn't tell them.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845335#Comment_121845335

Catherine Connoly absolutely filletted the Care referendum on the same program.

McDowell and Harris largely cancelled each other out.

eggy81

If a yes vote wins what will it mean for me. Is there anything I can’t say that I can say now legally. I mean can I still describe my mother as my mother or women as women. What actual everyday change will happen in normal life?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845335#Comment_121845335

You have listened to a national debate on serious social issues but all you got was confirmation of your ludicrous conspiracy theory that religious zealots like Enoch Burke and "arch conservative Republican nationalism" have "captured McDowell and portion of those at the upper echelons in the justice system".

I have no idea how you arrived at these views and I have no interest in finding out what you meant by this nonsensical conclusion-

I say to everyone see this for what it is, a battle cry to communist conservative Ireland and vote Yes Yes to oust these zealots from our national debate.

It is disheartening to realise that, although a referendum should be a question of ideas, many people are simply incapable of judging issues in terms of ideas, even ideas like family and caring which are far from abstract and which affect everyone's daily lives. I think most of those people will stay away from the polls on Friday but there will be some whose prejudices will prevail over any natural inhibitions regarding their ignorance of the issues.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121841672#Comment_121841672

Of course it's not being suggested for no reason. It is being suggested because most people would view a single parent and their children as a family.

Again, you are wrong. The intent of the drafters is to ensure the Constitution recognises single parents and their children as a family, and the many other situations that most people would view a family that arent recognised due to the current wording of the Constitution.

Very few people would support removing marraige from the referendum, why would they?

As for your hypothetical situation. As soon as couple A divorce, they will mutually agree on who has custody of the child(ren) and what access the other parent is allowed. If they cant come to a mutual agreement a Judge will grant custody to one parent. From this point forward the person who has custody lives with the child(ren) and the other parent is granted access(unless there's specific reasons they aren't granted access at all). Fron this point forward, barring extreme situations the person who is awarded custody of a child won't have that taken away from them, even if they do remarry.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844871#Comment_121844871

Yeah I just keep hearing from the Yes side that they're not happy with the wording but vote Yes anyway.

What sort of message is this?

Ficheall

The discussion seems to largely focus on children as being involved for the definition of family, but do a couple not fall under "durable relationship" too? You might not want to marry someone but after a couple of years you're in a 'durable relationship', with whatever that entails?

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846125#Comment_121846125

This is certainly a red flag. I'm not hearing from the Yes side that the wording is adequate. A lot of the Yes side are actually saying the wording is poor.