2minutes sitting on Luas at OCS lights

brianc89

I timed it. It was just shy of 2 minutes. Red Line Luas from Heuston to Abbey.

As we approached OCS junction, a tram coming from Abbey was sitting at the junction. Our tram got to the junction and stopped. About 3 seconds later the other tram very slowly crossed the junction. Our tram sat there and waited for the next sequence.

I don't use the Red Luas often, so was shocked that this crap hasn't been sorted. We also waited at 3 other traffic lights, for short periods, between Heuston and Abbey. I missed a bus connection because of it and had to wait 15minutes for next one. My connection was tight but it should have been fine.

Also of note, during the 2minutes waiting the pedestrian lights remained red with huge numbers of pedestrians building up behind. They all got frustrated and started crossing just before our tram started crossing which is dangerous for everyone.

namloc1980

The wait at the OCS crossing is ridiculously long. It's a busy street though.

d51984

The Luas should not have to wait at any lights through the city IMO, the lights should recognize when a Luas is about 10 seconds from them and give it an immediate green. Imagine the amount of time this would cut from each journey. Over 100 people on a tram sitting there waiting for the lights to go green is madness. Its painfull sometimes been on a Luas from Connolly to Heuston.

Not only Luas though, buses should have traffic light priority through major junctions, and cars should be banned completely from town or if not a daily charge for any car entering the city should be applied, but this is another days work. The amount of private cars with only the driver in them clogging up the inner city is absolute madness.

Might as well go the whole hog and ban any Taxis not carrying passengers from bus lanes... We can dream right..

ED E

Busses do have priority lights in many many places.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120349362#Comment_120349362

It would be very hard to reconcile those three priorities at a junction like OCS where all three meet!

blackbox

What's OCS?

angel eyes 2012

O'Connell Street, Dublin.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350056#Comment_120350056

At the very least, if a Luas is crossing the junction, a Luas in the opposite direction should be able to cross at the same time.

It's utterly farcical that this isn't the case.

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350143#Comment_120350143

Why cant two Luas trams not cross OCS at the same time? Absolutey bloody ridiculous. You could walk from the Jervis street to Abbey Street stops quicker most of the time.

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120349905#Comment_120349905

Does it work though? Most private drivers do not give a flying f**k anyway, sure look at the city bound bus only lane in Fairview/North Strand. The guards are half to blame here for not enforcing it, imagine the money it would make.

10 euro per day for any car entering a zone around the city, put all that money back in to public transport and cycling infrastructure. Proper bike lockers, bus waiting shelters, get busaras done up or move it completely, the list is endless. Has anyone seem the new underground bike parks in Amsterdam? They are amazing. More bus lanes more electric buses park and rides more more more. Cars have no part what so ever in any city.

We cant even manage to get a few sets of lights working properly so its all a pipe dream. I hate this country sometimes.

d51984

On the above folks, I know we are getting a lot done through Bus Connects but we really really need to step it up a gear now.

Flinty997

Luas is extremely slow in town. You can usually beat it on a Dublin bike for most journeys.

Even walking at times is quicker, though they've up the frequency of luas late so walking mostly isn't quicker.

757TFFIU

The issue the OP has described is an ongoing issue, even before Luas cross city became operational. That junction of Abbey Street/O'Connell Street has always been ridiculously slow for letting trams through the junction. Throw in a day where there's been delays on the Red Line and the trams are queuing up Abbey Street to get through the junction and you are looking at in excess of 5 minutes to get through the junction and into the stop in Abbey Street (I was in a queue of 3 trams one morning last week - if I'd noticed beforehand, I'd just have got off at Jervis!)

I suspect part of reasoning behind the Luas crawling through that junction is due to pedestrians ignoring the lights and walking onto the road - that's also a regular occurrence.

mikeybhoy

Why should bus users have to wait in a traffic jam of buses just let one Luas go through. There could be 15 buses queuing up at the set of lights on OCS just to let one tram go through.

15 buses are likely carrying more passengers than one Luas so only logical to prioritise bus movements same reason S-N buses get priority on Westmoreland/D'Olier Street over E-W buses operating on the quays. Public transport has to prioritise the majority.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350785#Comment_120350785

To be fair, buses already get high priority on OCS. I rarely use the Red Luas, but often take the bus, and I can't recall being stuck on OCS waiting for a Luas to cross.

The big issue I outlined is a Luas waiting 2 minutes for the next sequence of lights despite another Luas crossing in the opposite direction while the tram sat there waiting.

bk

While the Red Line shouldn't get priority over the buses, the entire junction could absolutely be far better timed.

There is no reason at all why two Red Line Luas can't pass in opposite direction at the same time and frankly the east - west pedestrian lights should go green at the same time so pedestrians can cross as the Luas does too.

Likewise The Green Line Luas should be timed to go with the buses and again the north - south pedestrian crossing at the same time.

Of course all of this could have been avoided if they just had done the sensible thing in the first place and made the red line cut and cover all along Abbey Street. You would have non of these issues or contstraints on the capacity of the Red Line.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351147#Comment_120351147

I've a feeling it all got worse after that bus and Luas crash? Can anyone recall better?... that's ages ago like.

I feel like they went overboard after that with safety and the light sequences got way slower. Could be wrong.

loyatemu

2 trams can go across OCS at the same time. In my limited experience of the red line, it seems to be an issue if one tram starts crossing and another tram arrives at the junction at the same time, it then has to wait for the next sequence.

On trams vs buses at OCS, off peak at least I'd imagine there are a lot more people on the trams, and trams frequently get held for a long time even when there are few or no buses or Green Line trams going along OCS. Surely a more intelligent signalling system is possible? I mean the NTA knows where all the buses and trams are in real time... It always amazed me that they'd spent 100s of millions on a mass transit system and then given it next to no priority through the city centre.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351595#Comment_120351595

On the occasion I mentioned, my tram had 100% arrived and stopped a seconds before the other tram proceeded to cross. I've noticed many other times where a tram arrives at the junction while another tram is already crossing.

In both cases, each tram should be able to cross. It's farcical that they can't.

As another poster mentioned above, it should be possible to limit all crossings at this junction to North-South and East-West. There has been a clear move in the city to give pedestrians higher priority (a good thing), but at a junction like this it hinders other modes.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351651#Comment_120351651

I don't think pedestrians are a major issue, the trams are generally moving at walking speed through this junction. There's plenty of places (both in Dublin and on other tram systems) where pedestrians cross the track in an uncontrolled manner and accidents are thankfully very rare. It's the city centre, pedestrians will generally cross wherever they can, I don't see what you can do to prevent it.

Long term they should really be looking at cut-and-cover to put the Red Line under O'Connell St - they'd probably have to move the Abbey stop or put it underground.

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350076#Comment_120350076

Ocean Colour Scene

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352189#Comment_120352189

An underground line below the Red Line will never happen unfortunately. Any of that resource would be better served building a spur from James to College Green or into a Dart+ tunnel.

Pixel Eater

Yeah the Luas may linger a bit too long at O'Connell Street but it is a major thoroughfare with another Luas line and a lot of other traffic so some dwell time here is to be expected. However a real bugbear is the way it stops at minor streets; like Queen Street and Blackhall Place on the Red line. Sometimes it even stops at each junction even though they're barely 100 metres between them; the Luas should have absolute priority at such places. It really slows the journey down.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352368#Comment_120352368

I've seen in other cities where they've cut-and-covered tram lines to get through busy junctions, it's not an outrageously expensive thing to do and trams can cope with gradients so the c&c sections can be quite short. 500 metres of C&C would get you from Liffey St, under OCS and Marlborough St and back up at the end of Lwr Abbey St (or a little bit further if you wanted to go under Gardiner St as well).

I don't expect this to happen any time soon, it should probably have been considered when the Red Line was designed. As mentioned above a quicker win would be give the Luas better priority at minor junctions. Gardiner St is another bugbear of mine - I know there are some bus routes on it, but in my experience the Luas is often held solely to allow queues of private cars out of the junction, more intelligent signalling could again help at this location.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352478#Comment_120352478

Ah sorry you just mean the junction. I was picturing the whole city centre section. Yeah that should be feasible, though I still think unlikely to happen, at least until other modes are well up and running including Metro, Dart+ and Lucan Luas.

_Kaiser_

This is why they should have gone Metro rather than trams - or at least in the city centre areas. Oh well!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352478#Comment_120352478

Gardiner Street is complicated as it requires traffic on three separate routes to be stopped:

• Gardiner Street southbound
• Lower Abbey Street eastbound
• Beresford Place northbound

That can really only work by working through the full traffic light sequence.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350143#Comment_120350143

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350340#Comment_120350340

Two red line trams can (and do frequently) cross O’Connell Street together, but I believe it does require the second tram to have triggered the signals before the first one has started moving.

OP I think you just happened to be unlucky on that particular journey and that it was poor timing.

They did initially give red line tram drivers the ability to prioritise the lights at the OCS/Abbey Street junction but it caused massive traffic problems on OCS (principally affecting the bus service), stretching back onto Westmoreland Street and the Quays.

Now with Green Line trams crossing that junction as well, along with 20 bus routes, it just wouldn’t work to give red line trams priority - you have to work through the light sequence.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350371#Comment_120350371

Many traffic lights at junctions across the city have a sensor that will make the lights stay green a little longer once it detects a bus approaching.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352920#Comment_120352920

I disagree that my example was an unlucky exception. This happens regularly.

We're not talking Luas super priority, just a 10second buffer - if a Luas arrives while another tram is crossing, this tram should be able to cross.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353023#Comment_120353023

How long did it take to get from Heuston to Abbey?

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350463#Comment_120350463

Almost always. When I worked in Grand Canal Dock it was quicker to get a Dublin Bike there and cycle up to James' and get the Luas to Saggart than it was to get the Luas from Spencer Dock. Same on the way in.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353104#Comment_120353104

I can't recall tbh, maybe 16minutes. About 2-3minutes per stop, plus 2minutes at OCS junction. I felt it was relatively quick apart from stopping at 4 junctions waiting for green lights.

Most stops were less than 15seconds but longer when you consider the stop start motion.

Jamie2k9

The wait was longer before Green line was extended and they improved the sequancing and reduced it as well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353023#Comment_120353023

You are right, its normal rather an exception. While I fully understand why its very frustrating. If TII were to pull the data it would actually show its negetivly impacting traffic overall and also causing congestion on the Red Line. Unless both trams are stopped both will not get cleared accross together unless your exceptionally lucky.

The 10-15 second delay for the Luas clearance plus improvimnets to the triggers would easily be offset by the long periods where road traffic has greens and no actual traffic.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352850#Comment_120352850

Might be a more complicated junction but far more efficient and keeps both directions moving even if one tram is only approaching while the other has been cleared. They tend to get double clearence across both junctions together and trams are not held up as often as they would be either side of OCS. Only issues there at times is traffic onto Gardner St can mean they get caught between the junctions.

Capel St is another one that needs to be reprogrammed to account for the changes there.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353023#Comment_120353023

Around 9am at OCS, the trams from Heuston are bunched together. It is a regular thing - two Point trams and a Connolly tram within 3 minutes and then a 6 minute gap.

Often it's not just a wait at the lights but waiting for the tram ahead to clear through Abbey St.

There's similar blockages for traffic trying to right onto Fleet St with northbound trams...which blocks College Green and College St north/westbound buses to Westmoreland St.

Daith

Getting the Luas from Westmoreland St and watching it slowly get to Dominck St is a right pain. The number of traffic lights (and pedestrians and car traffic, sure), but frequently the Broombridge bound tram has to wait for the Parnell boud tram at O'Connell St. It's a pity there's no area for Parnell bound trams to "rest" that doesn't block a Broombridge one.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365132#Comment_120365132

I think it should be possible to remove the left turns from OCS North and South onto Abbey. This would simplify that junction. As for the Parnell Street junction, definitely a bottleneck and I'm not sure what solution save for removing cars from crossing Parnell westbound.

Daith

Yeah, it just comes down to too much traffic on that street.

Abbey St has a lot of deliveries in the morning and buses setting down too. Am sure some of this could be shunted off elsewhere.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365212#Comment_120365212

I'm confused as to where you are sending traffic. It looks like its down Bachelors Way which is not wide enough and it has a height restriction so no buses. Then you swing onto Abbey Street, across the Luas tracks and down the laneway to the left of Penneys? Again this laneway isn't suitable for anything wider than a bicycle.

This is Bachelors Way Bachelors Way - Google Maps

and this is the 'road' to the left of Penneys, Williams Lane. Good luck. William's Ln - Google Maps

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366004#Comment_120366004

No buses turn left onto OCS from the quays, so only cars would need to use Bachelor's Way, which it is wide enough to accommodate. Taxi's use this regularly.

William's lane, however, is clearly unsuitable thanks. Didn't realize it was so narrow.

Basically the only reason cars need to use OCS is to access the carparks, which is very poor reason to complicate Abbey/OCS junction. Any other suggestions?

Daith

Yeah, Arnotts Car Park causes a lot of issues.

LXFlyer

How would businesses on Middle Abbey Street get deliveries, including Arnotts if you banned the turn from OCS?

Bachelors Way is far too small for any form of delivery truck to use.

Access from OCS to Middle Abbey Street is needed for that reason alone.

The amount of traffic making that turn is minimal to say the least.

The turn from OCS to Lower Abbey Street is needed for Bus Éireann, Collins Coaches and several Dublin Bus routes. Most of these stop on OCS, and if you re-routed them would have a massive gap in stops due to not being able to stop on Marlborough St.

That’s not very passenger friendly.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366980#Comment_120366980

The Arnotts side of Abbey street is difficult alright. On the East side though, it's hardly unreasonable to relocate the BE and Collins buses. As for DB routes, upon completion of Bus Connects, I didn't think any routes will need to make that turn?

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120353474#Comment_120353474

Relatively quick? Is this a joke? It should be 7-10 min max. PT in Ireland, particularly the Luas, are very slow.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367410#Comment_120367410

This just reflects my expectations!!

Also, the journey planner on TFI, which I used a few times recently, showed 20minutes on Luas (4minutes per stop) between Heuston and Connolly.

I was checking connections for my mum from Belfast to Galway via train and it massively over-estimates the connection time in Dublin, especially when you include waiting times for a Luas.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367544#Comment_120367544

Dublin is not that huge city, but because of a poor infrastructure it feels big as it takes much longer to get to the places as it should.

alentejo

Some things about the center of Dublin which I cant figure out regarding traffic and public transport.

Compared to 20 years ago, there is far less car traffic in the city center, yet public transport times on buses has remained slow.

OCS for example is primarily taxis and buses, yet it seams to take an age to get from OC bridge up to Parnell Sq! I think Dublin City center is a peak bus! New transport channels are needed including metros and tunnels.

There is also a over reliance on traffic lights. Yes , you do need traffic lights at certain junctions, however there should be way more zebra style crossings and road design which caters for pedestrians, but allow public transport to move a little bit more freely.

markpb

Considering the enormous volume of bus passengers alighting and boarding in the city centre, there is zero infrastructure to support them. Buses weave in and out between each other and to avoid traffic and stopped buses, queue for bus stops and board near (but not at) bus stops. It’s an efficiency nightmare. And there’s before you see the space dedicated to parking out of service buses, a necessary evil that could be better managed with designated bus garages and facilities for bus drivers.

And that’s before you think about the lack of seats or shelter of any kind. Luas passengers get both of those (in limited amounts) but bus passengers are stuck in limbo.

Pixel Eater

Why do some Luas only go to Parnell and turn back southwards? Why don't they all simply go to Broombridge?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378683#Comment_120378683

There is far higher demand on the core Sandyford-Parnell section than the rest of the route.

Service patterns are generally Sandyford-Broombridge and Brides Glen-Parnell.

By turning trams at Parnell you deliver maximum capacity between there and Sandyford.