The future of Trek

Theduke1960

I have been a fan since about 1975.

I loved both the next generation and deep space 9. I loved the original and will take a week off when Bill dies but he could outlive me.

I thought voyager was so so. It had good stand alone episodes but did not develop the starfleet vs maquis story line nor the lone starfleet ship in the gamma quadrant. Was it the gamma quadrant?

It didn't realise TV was adapting. The 60s series plus DS9 pushed the envelope but this was a very by the numbers series with incredibly boring characters bar 7 and the captain

What came after - Enterprise was mixed. I actually dislike Scott baluka as an actor. First series I gave up on

I thought discovery series 1-2 was not bad. Not a popular opinion. Season 3 and 4 were ****.

Again Star trek seems to have lost its way. People were tiring of season long episode arcs . These can work with interesting characters allied with a few connected mini story lines feeding in but Discovery didn't have this

I like SNW but it sort of feels like a Trek cover band.

If Trek is to survive it has to be creative and feel like it's reflecting the past.

FGR

Personally I feel going down the prequel route was the beginning of the end of Trek; at least for me.

I had no interest in Enterprise for the simple fact that it's what came before - and what I suspected would mess up canon with plotholes to beat the band. I would have liked Scott Bakula as a Captain in a post Nemesis Trek.

SNW and even Discovery would have worked in a post Nem Trek with some slight changes. Don't get me wrong; the writing for Disco is dreadful, especially for Burnham's character; but the likes of Jason Isaac, Michelle Yeoh and Anson Mount in the new era, during or post Picard - Would have been amazing.

Don't get me started on the 600 year thing in Disco - that was the 2nd worst alternative. The 1st being the prequel route.

Season 3 Picard shows live action Trek can be done well. It wouldn't even need the cameos - it just needs people who care to helm it.

Evade

Prequels can work in short bursts, it would be easier to keep canon inconsistencies low in a 90 minute tv movie compared to a continuing series but we've had enough of them already. Star Trek needs another hundred year skip to really grow. As much as I like the 90s era crews once Picard is over they should move on from legacy characters. One thing Enterprise did really well right was it's season four mini arcs, I'd like to see them return in a 26th century series.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120350603#Comment_120350603

Agree with this. I loved that while I was growing up trek was this persistent sci-fi universe being looked at from different angles. Once they announced Enterprise I struggled to care.

Voyager was a natural stopping point. The crew was home, most of the major adversaries in each quadrant had been dealt with, and just the format was running out of road, but 15 years out of that generation of Trek was some achievement.

Would have liked if they gave it a few years off at that point and then gave us a new crew 100 or so years into the future, with a new mission. Would be enough time where you could allow for radically different ship design and where you wouldn’t be expecting cameos every week from familiar faces.

It actually really annoys me that we still haven’t gotten a proper progression of Trek, and the direction they’ve taken with Discovery means we probably won’t get one. The writers decided it was best to skip over all of the stuff we had seen before which was really the temporal war stuff from Voyager - but that should have just been ignored. It was dumb in voyager(the temporal prime directive🙄) but at least it was about time travel so could have been easily retconned.

Hopefully once the dust settles on this latest round of trek the producers realise that all we need is a good crew being put into interesting situations, as SNW is clearly the best of the current batch(I do love lower decks too). But I’m not holding out too much hope!

Capt'n Midnight

As a Babylon 5 fan DS9 was too similar. And too many whiny Bajorans.

Voyager - Only 7 of 9 and the Doctor had any character development during the series. And Janeway selling out anyone and everyone , nah.

Enterprise - Mirror universe episode was at least 20% better for not using that theme tune. Brilliant start to an episode. As much fun as the bit on SG-1 200 where they do Farscape. Didn't like the whole temporal war plot though.

Discovery - didn't even finish it.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351503#Comment_120351503

You are right about the doctor on voyager. Good guy.

The temporal war war was a good plot indeed

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351301#Comment_120351301

I would agree with this. It was only with Picard after what 20 years that trek began to move forward. I don't think there was a next generation movie that period

I'm not sure why this was. Enterprise crashed so they double down on prequels??

That being said they did get it right on SNW but I still feel we need a new series.

Can anybody explain to me the OTT on prequels??

Flinty997

In my youth I used to only dip in and out of Star Trek as I preferred other SciFi in my youth. One my kids though got me rewatching it. We've worked our way through much of it in recent years.

Have to agree about prequels. I think it's laziness to keep going back and mining prequels. It undermines the existing material and lore. I've yet to see a prequel that does anything other than diminish a franchise.

Discovery was awful. Its not star trek and neither were the first two seasons of Picard. Patrick Stewart is a great actor but is just too old for how it was written.

Strange new worlds though is a return to Star Trek as it's meant to be IMO.

Two things I've never loved is time travel and multiple dimensions or alternative universes. Too often it becomes over complicated and messed with previous storylines and diminishes them. The story becomes unmanageable very fast.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352156#Comment_120352156

I'm a huge fan of time travel stories. In all sci fi

There was a good series last few years Timeless.

It was brilliant but sadly only lasted 2 seasons

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352427#Comment_120352427

For me it only works in small does. But I don't watch SciFi to end up back in another genre like western, or gangster era. If its stays in genre like Voyager Krenim episode then maybe. There was one in TNG with Data worked ok.

Theduke1960

Timeless made it work as a series but I agree that that it should only be used sparingly in ST

Evade

Traveller's was pretty good too and I used to love Seven Days as a kid. They both had time travel as a central premise.

Rawr

I have a smattering of hope for the future of Trek if Picard S3 can stick the landing. With Lower Decks we've a very fun & enjoyable take on Trek, and with SNW we seem to at very least have a compitent stab of making regular episodic Trek.

What little I had seen of Prodigy seemed good, I haven't been too pushed to watch it, but I haven't felt repelled from watching it like I was towards Discovery after Season 3.

The final pillar of my hope is that Discovery actually got cancelled. I didn't finish, it didn't simply come to the end and stop. The plug was pulled on it. Season 5 was probably going to roll into a Season 6 and probably 7, but they put the breaks on it. This gives me a sense of hope. Paramount appears to have learned, at least to some degree, the difference between a decent Trek show and the dissapointment that Discovery had shown itself to be. The fact that they didn't double down and continue to tank the franshise with that show, indicates that they at least want to try to make it work. I feel that they may have learned.

Again, this is mostly down to Picard S3 ending on a high, and possibly them following up from that with the elements that worked. No more Michelle Yeoh led Section-31 shows in the works (Good luck funding that when she's got a new Oscar), or really any other silly backup series from Kurtzman. Just Trek shows that viewers actually want to see.

Pull that off, and I think there's hope for the future of Trek.

Theduke1960

I'm not totally sure if it was a decision based on fan reaction to cancel it.

Discovery.

I have watched it up to now but no more

AMKC

I agree if Srar Trek is to continue to live long and Prosper it has to move forward into the 25th or 26 century with a whole new crew on a new ship on interesting adventures.

I loved TNG but the one thing I hated about that was the slightest bit of damage and all and at the end of the episode they were always running back to a Starbase. How were they supposed to get anywhere when they were always going back. They were supposed to be out on the edge of Federation space exploring new life and new planets.

Voyager certainly could abd should have been better.

DS9 once it got going was excellent but even in the first 3 seasons there us some great episodes and it done the best at developing its characters.

SNW and Lower Decks are both excellent while Prodigy is very good.

We need a show like SNW now but in the future.

The less said about that other show that somehow got 5 seasons the better. To me it is not Star Trek.

Flinty997

I trudged my way through I think 3 seasons of discovery then stopped.

So much wrong with it.

Lower Decks is great.

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120352933#Comment_120352933

Ah Travelers was a great little show, pity it got cancelled but personally I think it ended pretty well and the conclusion worked for me.

TheIrishGrover

I enjoy a good timetravel story. BUT it has to make sense. I love the impact of time travel in stories. Twin Pines/Lone Pine in BTTF for example or the whole sequence with Carey Mulligan "talking" to The Doctor in the Doctor Who episode with the Weeping Angels.

But its "implementation" into Enterprise was poor at best. No real ramifications on the crew. They could have had a disposable character on the show. Somebody on the opening credits (Hell, the navigator who's name I can't remember). They are in the credits, have some scenes. Interact with the crew. Make them likeable. Entertaining. Then... Gone. Never existed. Only the time travel guy knows. Nobody else. Not even Archer. Just time traveller and us. That would have been impactful

The OP's statement of SNW being a TOS coverband, I thought initially was a bit harsh. I LOVE SNW. The entire season 1 knocked it out of the park and the cast are fantastic.... But I know what the OP means and can't say they are wrong. But hey, a good Cover Band can be great fun. I actually went to see the Bootleg Beatles at glasto the same time as the REAL Rolling Stones were on as I'd seen the Stones before they have phones it in since the 70s (I did hear they were fantastic after though)

I agree with the OP, first couple of seasons of Disco were pretty good. Mainly, admittedly, because, by that stage it was only around 85% Burnham. As opposed to 179.5% Burnham right now. Michelle Yeoh was great in first couple of episodes. Isaacs was Isaacs, The doctor and Engineer were very engaging without being creepy-possessive about a new adult character simply because they classified as non-binary. Voq was really interesting as Klingon and Human and well portrayed.

TOS was good fun but, y'know, dare I say it, not QUITE as good as people may remember. TNG was great and gave us some of the best episodes of Trek ever (Best of Both Worlds, Inner Light, too many to mention). DS9 was my favourite. Voyager was SUCH a step back after the daring DS9 and Enterprose was so bland I can barely remember it.

So regarding going forward... The doubling down on Burnham was a mistake. It is nothing to do with her gender or race or the actor (She can only work with what's given). But simply as has been said many many MANY times before, she is the least interesting character on the show. Anyone else interesting was moved on.

I have no problems with the overall style of the current shows. This season of Picard is definitely taking aesthetic from Discovery. I don't have a problem with that as such... It's a bit too dark for my liking but it's not the end of the world. But the over-reliance on a particular character needs to be addressed.

Look at the comments about the latest season of Picard: I am probably more negative about it than many butI LOVE Riker and Shaw in this season. It a show called Picard, they still give enough focus on other characters. To the betterment of the series. Sadly, from the trailers for Discovery, it seems this is NOT the case in Discovery. But, look at SNW. most of the characters got time to shine due to excellent writing, planning and direction.

So I think there is still space (No pun intended) for another show. It could be TNG/Picard era, could be a different era. I think it should still be a ship-based show. While Starfleet Academy set show could be good, I think producers/showrunners would panic after season one and switch from it being based in the Academy to having them all go on excursions-of-the-week and change the dynamic of the show.

Whatever they do though, they need to have likeable characters. And, not laser-focus on one.

Flinty997

I like this thread. While I don't agree with some, (or a lot) of the comments, I like to see other people's perspective on it.

I have a fondness for Voyager. While I never liked "always right" Janeway "always wrong" Chakotay. I thought it was true to the Stark Trek themes, exploration etc. Had strong characters and story arcs for the most park.

Was re-watching these shows with one of my kids. I only dipped in and out of them in my youth. But its been interesting to see what they liked and didn't like.

Watched mostly all of DS9, Voyager, Lower Decks

Mostly all of TNG but skipped more than the others.

Abandoned after a season, Discovery, Enterprise (which I don't think is that bad).

Almost abandoned Picard, S2 was tough going. But S3 been better.

Watched all of SNW so far.

Theduke1960

Voyager had some good episodes and in a lot of ways better than discovery.

You could sit down and watch a random episode of voyager and feel very much at home in the trek universe.

Overall its characters were terribly boring but it had good episodes

It's funny story arcs became all the rage in the last 20 years but discovery went too far. With a lot of shows the arcs were a back drop not always the main action.

The arcs seemed to be front and centre pretty much all the time-in discovery. That's my memory anyhow .

Now id like to see more stand alone episodes in trek and SNW is not bad on this

Flinty997

It's not that story arcs are a problem, just bad writing is, be arcs or stand alone episodes.

I wouldn't agree the characters are "overall" boring. We got the EMH Doctor, Borg, Seven, Paris, Tuvok, Neelix, B'Elanna Torres, Species 8472, Hirogen etc.  

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379791#Comment_120379791

Voyager had some good episodes and in a lot of ways better than discovery.

Yes it's way better than Discovery in every way. Discovery to me could be any sci-fi show. Voyager on the other hand is Star Trek but it could have been so much better too. There was so much potential with Voyager that was just wasted with a ship being so far away from the Federation all on it's own. It should have and could have been so much better.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379969#Comment_120379969

Very much this. Arcs work, when written well. Hell, DS9 didn't get a single last episode, it got a whole 8-episode arc!. It maybe a bit bloated in parts, but was still a sizable cut above any of the Discovery arcs, or what they did in the first 2 seasons of Picard. If Picard S3 sticks the landing, it will show that an arc can work in Trek (or any show) if *written well*.

I am hopeful that they have finally caught onto this, and have realised that you can't pack the writer's room with hacks and hope that the SFX & casting choices can paper over their lack of talent.

Theduke1960

True not all characters were boring. Seven was good but let's face it the outfit while nice for male eyes was distracting...

McFly85

Voyager was sold on a premise-how would a starfleet crew survive without starfleet?

Almost immediately though most of that premise was abandoned as the writers removed any of the obstacles the ship could face in the short term.

Dont know who to trust? Don’t worry, here’s a delta quadrant local with in depth knowledge of all the planets, and sure he can cook too so you don’t have to worry about rations.

Worried about how the maquis will work on your ship? No problem at all, most of them will be happy to stick on a Starfleet uniform, and half of them were at the academy anyway.

If Voyager took itself seriously then Chakotay should’ve constantly been publicly challenging Janeways decisions, and Janeway should have learned the hard way that she cannot just keep being starfleet without starfleet.

The show completely abandoned the premise imo when they decided to put them in regular contact with starfleet.

Having said all of that, I still enjoy it because it’s basically TNG: Delta Quadrant and it has some great standalone episodes, but it could have been so much more.

FutureGuy

I think we are in a fantastic place with Trek.

SNW s1 was fantastic, Picard s3 is an absolute love letter to TNG, Lower Decks is a great show, Prodigy is like a Voyager sequel, and Discovery has improved as we head towards the end.

I think Trek fans can be rightly accused of wearing rose-tinted glasses. Many of the TNG/DS9/VOY episodes were meh.

If the can continue the Titan story with a new series instead of Discovery and can the S31 show, we'd be well set.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382073#Comment_120382073

She and the Borg had great episodes.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382113#Comment_120382113

True Back in the day you only had one show to watch at a time.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382214#Comment_120382214

I never really was a fan of The Borg in Voyager.

The Borg in TNG. A single cube wiped out dozens of ships. The Federation were massively outmatched and barely survived. They were an ominous foe (Alright, was never really a fan of Hugh and the Lore/Borg thing but they were an offshoot).

Borg on Voyager. Oh those pesky Borg are back.... Then, in the last episode: Screwit, let's violate the Temporal Prime Directive and get us home. We only have 20 mins left

Flinty997

I feel you are conflating two different timelines. When the Borg were unknown, and thus no known weaknesses.

Then later both TNG and Voyager used new inside information from contact with the Borg to exploit weaknesses not previously known.

It's what I don't like about time travel, there's always and easy out, of an over complicated plot.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382577#Comment_120382577

I think the Borg were overused in Voyager. It was interesting when Voyager made a deal with them to get through Borg space but that should have been the end of it.

The one that annoys me most though is Q being there. As soon as Q shows up there’s no reason that they shouldn’t have been back in the alpha quadrant in time for dinner. It’s not like he was just there to antagonise them either, they flat out stop a civil war within the continuum.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382744#Comment_120382744

Never loved Q click of the fingers stuff. For me it's always a bad episode when Q appears. Some people love it though.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382744#Comment_120382744

Oh God, I forgot Q was so heavily involved (How could I? Just lucky I guess).

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382577#Comment_120382577

They nearly managed a smooth handover of the Borg with Voyager early on and if they simply hadn't fumbled later on with the majoy event episodes they could have maintained their edge.

I imagine that the chance to introduce the Borg the Voyager was a tempting chance to finally give the stuggling Trek show a hook for it's audience. Voyager could be "The Borg Show", giving Trekkies incentive to venture over from the far more interesting fare on DS9. They even swap out one of the weaker characters for some Borg-ified Eye-candy (That's right kids....Borg *& boobs* what more could you dweebs want from us anyway?!), such was their comitment to make Voyager; "Star Trek: Borg!" (And yes, I do know about the PC game of the same name starring Q)

But alas....it was Voyager, and despite them really putting it together mid-run, they weren't in the best shape to make the Borg a monolithic threat. If they were up for it, it could have been a combination of Year of Hell and the Enterprise of that alternat universe Riker who was haggered from years of running from the Borg. Dark as all hell, but would have been gripping. Alas, they eventually went to route of turning the Queen into a cartoonish arch-villianess who'd give Rita Repulsa a run for her money. An easier writing job...but also an awful waste of a chance.

Flinty997

I would guess that the borg episodes at that time where quite expensive to produce, and time consuming. Likewise the year of hell. Lots of set changes, cgi and costume and makeup. Perhaps that limited their ambitions.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383317#Comment_120383317

Probably did generally for Voyager.

This was during a time when executives expected people would just miss an episode and didn’t want them feeling like they should stop watching because they couldn’t follow it, so everything pretty much had to be back to normal by the end of the episode.

I think if they did Voyager now it would be a lot different. The ship could continually evolve in how it looks due to the crew having to fix things with whatever they have to hand instead of being able to go to a star base for a replacement.

Evade

At least Q's finger snap is better than Q(uinn)'s whatever that was supposed to be.

CGI is a lot cheaper now too if you want to put a few scars on a model an re-render some of the beauty shots it won't take too much time or money.

Flinty997

I feel the CGI is a little overboard on the trek interiors these day. Too much bling and luxury.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383395#Comment_120383395

More than individual viewers missing an episode - depending on the distribution deal (eg first run syndication) for the Trek series they couldn't always rely on the local stations airing the episodes in the right order.

That should have been less of an issue for Voyager as it aired on dedicated UPN network, but might still have been a concern with reruns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_syndication

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Syndication

Evade

Firefly is a pretty famous example of the episodes being aired out of order. IIRC they showed the third one first followed by the first, the one that explains how the all got together and the setting, and then the rest.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383395#Comment_120383395

I think if they did Voyager now it would be a lot different. The ship could continually evolve in how it looks due to the crew having to fix things with whatever they have to hand instead of being able to go to a star base for a replacement.

That is one thing that really bugged me about the TNG. Any bit of damage at all and at the end of the episode instead of Geordie and Co fixing it they were going to such and such starbase.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384080#Comment_120384080

That made sense to me, though! If you have an alien baby use the warp nacelles as some food thinking the enterprise was its mother then you’d definitely bring it to a starbase for a once over, at the very least just check and repair any external damage.

Just generally though it’s reason to assume starships need regular maintenance and upgrades.

In Voyager, the ship essentially fixed itself, and a crew of about 140 kept a starship is pristine working order by themselves for 7 years. How did they repair hull damage? You never saw them outside on the hull doing any repair work as far as I remember.

gormdubhgorm

What I noticed with Star Trek - the first few series of Picard (Have not seen the reason ones gave up on it) they somehow manage to talk down to the audience and constantly really awkwardly shoehorn in current American politics into the episodes. While also shoehorning in political agendas. And it gets so lost in all the politics and agendas, it forgets to entertain and have a good story first and foremost.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384413#Comment_120384413

What I noticed with Star Trek - the first few series of Picard (Have not seen the reason ones gave up on it)

Oh your missing out then. Season 3 is really good and nothing like season 1 or 2. It's like a love letter to TNG.

Yes whats her name Raffi is unfortunately still there but that's about the only bad thing about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384376#Comment_120384376

You never saw them outside on the hull doing any repair work as far as I remember.

Actually you do when they discover the Vaadwar on the dead planet. They land on it and you see the nacelles being stripped etc.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384413#Comment_120384413

100%. Discovery and Picard feel like they were so busy with the social commentary they forget it's meant to be Star Trek show.

Picard S3 has started better. I didn't mind S1 until the endings, S2 though.... Just no.

Theduke1960

I love you guys. We should do a social event sometime.

Anyway yes I have been drinking

Firstly Picard season 3 is what they should have done season 1.

Stewart is 80 plus for **** sake. Don't try to break new ground. You might get lucky with a spin off character like captain Pike but stick with Traditional trek. For Picard

The dark sets are a real turn off and I don't accept excuses to cover up cracks

Voyager played it safe. Too safe. DS9 broke new ground.

We have had practically 20 years of **** trek bar a decent reboot of the movies.

Well the first one.

I like SNW but give me a decent moving forward trek series next or I am gone.

I have been with this franchise since 1975

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384431#Comment_120384431

I might give it a go so. I was only after watching probably my favourite episode from 'Enterprise' on Netflix. Even if I can't fast forward/skip that awful theme tune quick enough.

The episode was called Carbon Creek. The acting in it was great, the story still draws me in (even though I saw it before). It had little bits of humour in it. Pacing was great etc. I was thinking why don't they write star trek episodes like this anymore?

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384633#Comment_120384633

Even if I can't fast forward/skip that awful theme tune quick enough.

Awe it's not that bad. You just have to be in the right mood for it.

ilovesmybrick

Actually talking about Enterprise, repairs to the hull, and the general minutiae of ship maintennance, I always really enjoyed that Enterprise episode where they have to take shelter in the warp nacelle from a storm. Quite a fun little episode, and felt like a submarine film. Might stick that on now!

And yeah, season 3 is a very different experience to earlier Picard and all of Discovery. Completely took me by surprise.

I think there was at least another Voyager episode where you see them working on the hull, though I believe it was the finale when they were installing all that future tech. Enterprise also had that one where they got stuck in the Romulan minefield.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384674#Comment_120384674

My kid reckons that was dates a lot of old shows the music. He can't take it at all. There a lunge for the skip intro when it starts.

I actually like the intro's. Especially voyagers.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384694#Comment_120384694

I liked enterprise. It was a bit too slow in the first season. My kid gave up on it.

Very hard to watch something like Expanse, or Lost in Space and come back to some of these old shows. In some ways Enterprise seems more dated than TNG, Voyager, or DS9. Seems cheaper production too. The shuttle interior seems especially quite low budget. At least in TNG they made an attempt to go back boost it to HD etc. I'd really like to see the Babylon 5 refresh. Seems hard to get access to it.