You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

SafeSurfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771352#Comment_120771352

Ok let’s test your assertion.

Are there any people in Germany who have been baptised who do not pay a tax to the church?

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771390#Comment_120771390

Yup, the majority of my friends and colleagues across Germany and Austria, who both have the same tithe system. Also anyone who moves there on registration you're asked if you want to declare your registered religion for the tithe. As a foreigner moving there you can just say you're not religious and job done, though if you declare you're religion and want to later opt out it's not a major hassle. And if you're baptised here its a relatively quick deregistration process that takes about as much time as when you register a change of address.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771416#Comment_120771416

The article I posted had someone who was traced back to their parish and forced to pay, or they wouldn’t have been able to get married in their home church in Italy.

I actually like the way that German taxes religious people. If you’re practicing, prove it by paying tax. Can you imagine how few Catholics would be in this country if you were taxed an extra 8% on the income tax you pay just to say you’re a Catholic?

If we could deregulated here at 18, I would take everything back. It’s the fact that you can’t (in Ireland) leave the Catholic church AT ANY AGE that I have a huge issue with.

Sudden Valley

The German system seems a very good system of measuring the number of members of each church though I dont know how it would work here. Would you have to pay the tax every year if you were sending your kid to a religious owned school? That may make it an issue here.

Even if you cant officially leave the church in Ireland, its membership is measured through the census anyway and if you don't believe in its teaching what harm can they do you?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771714#Comment_120771714

The church doesn’t measure through the census, it measures through baptisms, that’s why they’re “members of the faith”. When the church say they have 1.3 billion members worldwide, that includes the likes of me and many millions like me that no longer see myself as a Catholic.

They use these artificially inflated numbers as a show of strength and use it when it comes to politics, grants, religious exemptions from taxes, equality laws etc.

Its completely deceitful.

As for your other point, (would you have to pay it here?), I would suspect that if it was brought in, if your child was receiving religious education, you would have to pay it, but if the child was exempt from religious studies and the parents had deregistered, you wouldn’t.

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771644#Comment_120771644

Yeah, that story reads more like someone who did not keep on top of their registration situation with a little whiff of bull. To me that sounds like that person f'd up on their registration form when they moved there and never followed up with the letters they would have received annually looking for payment, and eventually the dues were passed on to a debt company, which can and does happen. And those companies are a pain in the absolute hole here.

Deregistering in Germany or Austria is not going to make you a non-Catholic in your home country or prevent marriage in a Catholic church. It's not like they send a list of all people who declare themselves non-Catholic back to their home countries and have the baptismal certs burned. What is more likely is that he misunderstood, or the debt company deliberately mis-stated, that he couldn't get married in a Catholic church in Germany without paying and allowed him to assume/presume that this also applied in Italy. Though if he told them he was Catholic and wanted to get married in a church back in Italy then that's his mistake, it won't deregister him as a Catholic in Italy, but he has lied about being a practising Catholic on his German registration, and that's a big no no.

And I agree, much prefer the tithe system than the way it works in Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771390#Comment_120771390

Well, yes - me for a start!

But I take your point that its a lot easier to leave the church in Germany than it is in Ireland. Every days a school day.

That said, being an atheist parent is a lot easier in Berlin than it is in Dublin.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774863#Comment_120774863

I don’t think you’ve left the church though. Hold onto your seat for a sec 😁

Basically how it appears to work is you declare to the State that you’re not affiliated with a religious community, and that’s one thing, but… that declaration makes no odds as far as the Catholic Church itself are concerned - it’s unfortunately the case that there is no formal means within the Church of renouncing your membership. You’re still a member even if you deliberately try to get yourself kicked out, because even when excommunicated - yep, still a member, just in the wings, so to speak, currently not in communication with the Church (they’re like an ex who still thinks you’re just on a break 😂).

There’s probably going to be something of a Lutheran split (history repeats itself) in the Catholic Church at some point in the future with way the German Catholic Church are trying to stop the haemorrhaging of Catholics who are declaring themselves disaffiliated from the Church, it’s not just about avoiding the Church tax, it’s about the way the Hierarchy have conducted themselves in the wake of scandal after scandal, and they just keep coming. It’s causing a considerable conflict for German Catholics who still want to be affiliated with the Roman Church, but don’t want to support the German Catholic Church, because they don’t want to fund the direction in which they see it going either -

In January 2023, in an interview with AP, Pope Francis warned that the German Synodal Way is both "elitist" and "ideological." He also said that is neither helpful nor serious, and contrasted it with the worldwide Synod on Synodality. He urged that the Church "be patient, dialogue and accompany these people on the real synodal path" and to "help this more elitist [German] path so that it does not end badly in some way, but so is also integrated into the church."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synodal_Way

https://www.ncregister.com/news/leaving-the-church-to-stay-catholic-german-faithful-face-church-tax-dilemma?amp

The introduction and operation of the State collection and administration of a Church tax in Ireland would be a disaster for everyone while the Catholic Church still owns and operates over 90% of schools, as just one example - forget about the children, they would go back to being able to employ only teachers who are members of the Church, teachers of other faiths and none need not apply. Roll back on those admissions policies too, and we’ve already seen how John Halligan kicked off when he was told he couldn’t be a sponsor!

That’s the difference between why the Church tax works in other countries where the State isn’t as reliant on private entities to provide public services, and why it wouldn’t work here where the Church has a virtual monopoly on both private and public services such as education, healthcare, housing, social services, etc. Anyone proposing the idea of a Church tax out of spite, thinking it would one-up the Catholic Church in Ireland, probably hasn’t thought it through.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775116#Comment_120775116

No, but I was well advised when I filled out my anmeldung/registration - so they have me as No Religion here. The worst the church can do now is withold sacraments from me, which they effectively do. I'm no longer resident in Ireland, so I don't exist as a catholic there either. Displaced religious refugee, I suppose.

As for His Holiness' quote there, well that just sounds like an ecumenical matter with extra steps. Seriously though - a lot of words that don't really have any meaningful impact outside of the church itself: it can warn or advise all it likes (it does so anyway) doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention.

I take your point about the church tax idea, but I mean it to once and for all accurately gauge the numbers of catholics in Ireland. It'll probably take a generation or so on it's own though. I can't imagine today's parents being all that bothered if their grandkids are baptised or not in 10/20 odd years.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775914#Comment_120775914

Yeah but this is what I mean - the Catholic Church in Germany, and the Catholic Church in Ireland are two very different beasts. The German Catholic Church which have always gone their own way anyway, are now trying to hold onto what they have by introducing all these ideas which are a complete departure from traditional teachings. Why? It’s not because they give a fig about the faithful, it’s because it’ll keep the tax money rolling in from the State.

In Ireland the Church doesn’t have to do any of that. The State doesn’t want to do it either, and as long as they can scratch each other’s backs, it doesn’t matter how many Catholics there are or aren’t in the country. The State will still tell Protestants, Pentecostals, Jehovahs Witnesses, Muslims, Hindus, Confuscians, non-religious, atheist, whatever… that they’re more than welcome to avail of the services already provided by the Church, that the State is obligated to provide, but doesn’t, and has no interest in providing those services directly when it’s far more economical for the State to outsource public services to private providers.

This is why I don’t suggest anyone should be concerned about people who warble on about any threat coming from “the Left”. The Left are grand, they’re no danger to anyone. It’s like you said about the Church - they say a lot and I’m sure they do mean well, but ultimately nobody is really paying them any attention, and probably won’t be in 10/20 years time either, whereas the clip my young lad will get round the ear if he so much as questions baptising my grandchildren… he’ll feel it alright 😂

Ahh no, I get what you’re saying though, I just don’t imagine it changing that much tbh, sure you’d Usenet groups saying the same back in the 90’s, and probably saying the same before that in the 70’s.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775936#Comment_120775936

the Catholic Church in Germany, and the Catholic Church in Ireland are two very different beasts.

This is the crux of it: Germany is genuinely secular, Ireland isn't.

Do you still have compulsory land buy-back schemes in Ireland?

The generational thing is coming: usenet was too slow to bring about change of this proportion. It was the beginning of the end, but it wasn't the end.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775954#Comment_120775954

Compulsory Purchase Order? Yep, still a thing, I don’t think they’ve ever been used to purchase land owned by the Church though. The State appears to prefer to pay the Church rent instead for the use of their property -

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2022/03/state-rent-school-buildings/

It’s a mere drop in the ocean though, as the States been dragging generations of parents through the ditches for decades over schooling and education. That’s why I don’t think it’s likely we’ll see change to the degree I think you’re thinking of - because children don’t vote, and by the time they’re adults, their priorities have changed dramatically.

AidanParkes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288119/youve-been-looking-in-the-wrong-direction-the-dangers-are-coming-from-the-left

there is a feeling that the Putin regime is the worst thing that can be, but I didn’t want to write about that. I really like the system of social loans in China, it seems to me that there is almost no aggression there.

Overheal

Hacker group purporting to identify as “gay furries,” hacks agencies of at least 6 states that have infringed on access to gender affirming care:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/29/siegedsec-gay-furries-group-hacked-information-six-us-states

realitykeeper

Borrowing 200 billion euro to inflate existing housing stock make FG even worse than FF, which brought the IMF to our door back in 2008. Sinn Fein are worse than both because they want to add to the 200 billion euro property owners got at everyone else`s expence, by giving them mortgage interest relief as well.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Interesting take on a Barcelona FC pride post on Instgram - they lost 400,000 followers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/14nsy1w/mundo_deportivo_fc_barcelona_lost_440_000/

Most of the responces appear to be of the "good riddance" and "****'em' nature. Reassuring to know football's extending it's anti-racism mesage to all forms of phobia.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791277#Comment_120791277

Lgbt pride now seems to br interpreted by its enemies as an attack on their religion whether it is Christian or Islam. I wish people would live and let live

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791565#Comment_120791565

Freguently athiest, oddly enough.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791743#Comment_120791743

No idea what it is I'm supposed to believe or not believe, to be honest.... Click bait usually comes with links.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791703#Comment_120791703

I wouldn’t say there was anything odd about it at all tbh, but I understand why you’d say ‘twas odd in fairness 😁

Personally I just wouldn’t conflate atheism with Leftist politics, or social and political movements which have nothing to do with atheism. Atheists are just as likely to be opposed to homosexuality, gender equality, etc, the whole gamut, as Christians, Muslims, etc. Wasn’t so long ago “Elevatorgate” was a thing, and PZ Myers was blasted for trying to use social justice as a means to promote atheism (he wasn’t the originator of atheism plus, just one of the more well-known names associated with the movement, which went nowhere) -

https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/2deyuo/what_happened_to_pz_myers/

That didn’t do enough to damage the ‘New Atheism’ movement; responsibility for that nail in the coffin lies with Richard Dawkins and his ‘Dear Muslima’ dickhead behaviour -

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2018/06/28/dawkins-and-dear-muslima/

The New Atheism movement died a death, and out of the murky depths of the ‘manosphere’ emerged slimy pricks like Carl Benjamin and the whole weirdness of the ‘NoFap’ movement, eventually congealing in ‘Gamergate’, from which Milo Yiannopoulos emerged, and went on the attack against all things Progressive Left, referring to themselves as Classic Liberals and Conservatives (they were neither, but that hardly matters!).

Am I surprised there are atheists who refer to themselves as Leftists, who are opposed to anything they perceive to be associated with Progressivism, like Pride? No, I’m not really. Ignorance doesn’t lend itself to having to think too hard about anything which conflicts with a person’s world views.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793871#Comment_120793871

There's no coorellation between athiest and left - if anything, left tends to be more in tune with spirituality and the belief that their IS a high form of consciousness, which, for me, would rule them out of being athiests.

My point thoguh was that why people who are oppoed to things like rainbow flags and homosexuality/trans issues on moral grounds are atheist. Christians, Mulslims I can understand - it's in their teachings - but athists don't have that. They don't have any logical resaon to explain their viewpoint, which is why their arguments always fall apart under even the mildest of scrutiny.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794161#Comment_120794161

Their arguments fall apart under the mildest of scrutiny because they don’t expect to have to justify their bigotry and therefore haven’t thought about it much, if at all.

The underlying reasons for it are influenced by culture, the justification for those reasons comes easier to people who can claim their reasons are based upon their religious beliefs. Atheists who don’t have that tend to fall back on their understanding of biology that they picked up from a secondary school textbook.

It’s easier for them to justify their bigotry when they can make fallacious appeals to the majority and that sort of thing, and call it common sense, but their arguments are no more logical or based on reason and rational thinking than the idiot who uses the argument that it’s because it’s written in a book, that they didn’t write.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795184#Comment_120795184

I think it's more phobia than bigtory (and by phobia, I mean discomfrot with, not hatred of) - but they can't admit to bigotry, they can't claim the Bible or Quran as an influence, they literally have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for something. The anti-woke argumnets they seem to fall back on (and this pretty much is the crux of their "dangers coming from the left" argument) and that's pretty easily shot down because they post Twitter crap from an extremist because, well - that's really all they have.

I honestly think this thread is nearing it's end point now for that reason.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795435#Comment_120795435

The difference between phobias and bigotry is that phobias are irrational thoughts which have no foundation in reality; bigotry is an expression of those thoughts, which have no foundation in reality. It’s why we saw from the example you gave of the backlash against the Barcelona football club flying the Pride flag that not only did they lose 400k followers from Instagram in two days, but those people tried to encourage other people to do the same. That’s bigotry, that’s not just a phobia. People generally tend to keep their phobias to themselves. It’s their actions which demonstrate bigotry in demanding that other people should conform to their beliefs, or values, or standards. In reality, or when put in its appropriate perspective - 300k followers out of 122million is nothing.

https://www.barcablaugranes.com/platform/amp/2023/6/30/23778701/fc-barcelona-loses-300000-instagram-followers-following-lgbt-pride-post

This thread was only ever started as a rabble-rousing counterpoint to the thread claiming dangers coming from the right. The OP didn’t actually put any thought into their opening post other than to yet again appeal to the majority (or at least what to them appears to be a majority, from their subjective perspective), here -

Ordinary tax paying people on the right wish to conserve the social order and would have no truck with revolutionary lunacy. Yet, when we look at the left. who have the ear of the media, we realise that revolution and overthrow of our established order is exactly what they want.

Similarly, you’ll find justifications along the lines of ‘maintaining the social order’ as mere window dressing for their bigotry, like the first comment on the article above -

This agenda is against the natural order of mankind! It's out to tear down humanity! Shame, shame, shame on the Barcelona FC organization for imposing this degenerate agenda on the club fans!

They don’t even have extremist crap from Twitter, they don’t need it, they rely on the idea that their view is the rightful one, that is shared by the majority. Anything else just doesn’t make sense and is thereby irrational, from their perspective.

Take for instance the idea of Veganism as an ethical philosophy. Alex O’ Connor makes an interesting argument for Veganism by framing it in terms of our responsibility towards animals by our membership of a ‘moral community’. He went from producing content exploring theology and philosophy to going full-on into espousing the ethical principles of Veganism and why we should all be Vegan.

His conversation with Matt Dillahunty (well-known atheist skeptic within those circles) was a demonstration of what I explained earlier was the phenomenon of people who haven’t given much thought to justifying their bigotry because it never occurs to them that they have to, which leaves them somewhat ill-prepared to do so when they find themselves in that position, as Matt did, and performed poorly as a result, floundering for an argument and clutching at straws such as the idea that animals would go extinct if we didn’t breed them to eat them, or the impact on the agriculture industry, etc -

https://youtu.be/qFVzJu6pJGg

(this is only a clip from the two-hour conversation)

Alex has since walked back on his position somewhat, due to personal health issues, and has been roundly criticised by the same people who platformed and parroted his ideas in the first place. Personally I think that’s unfair to him, because it’s not as though he was knowingly attempting to mislead and misrepresent himself in order to gain validation and support from people who follow a Vegan philosophy (one which I don’t follow myself, but I understand why other people do, and I would never discourage anyone from doing so as I understand the benefits to humanity in doing so).

https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/110vaiq/alex_oconnor_no_longer_vegan/#:~:text=He%20has%20started%20to%20consume,further%20details%20at%20some%20point.

The same cannot be said of those who attempt to argue that people should be wary of danger coming from the left, as nothing more than a mere counterpart to the idea that there is any danger coming from the right. They don’t even believe it themselves, which is exactly why their arguments are so poor - they’re an insincere attempt to induce fear and indulge prejudice in other people, which manifests itself as bigotry.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796064#Comment_120796064

You don;t need to express thought to it to be bigotry.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796278#Comment_120796278

When I say that bigotry is the expression of those irrational thoughts, I mean that it’s a physical manifestation of the irrational thought, the behaviour which follows as a result of the irrational thought, be it in their attitudes or their actions towards other individuals or groups of people on the basis of their irrational beliefs.

That’s distinct from those people who try to justify their bigotry with having read that they should behave in this manner towards others because they read it in a book, or they were told by someone else that it was a moral imperative to treat other people as they do based upon what they’d been told about those people.

It’s distinct again from people who fuel other people’s prejudices and bigotry for their own personal or political gain, who don’t actually genuinely hold those beliefs themselves, but they know other people do. Grifters are a good example of that sort of behaviour, encouraging other people to express their bigotry as the right thing to do, in pursuit of the truth and reality and all the rest of it.

In reality it’s just an excuse to be a dickhead.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Were defintely at the end of the thread now!

Premise rejected.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796439#Comment_120796439

Ironically enough, the conclusion of the thread isn’t contingent upon either your declaration, or your rejection of the premise of my argument.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796521#Comment_120796521

I know, it just feels like it's run its course at this stage. And I like to round things up tidily - probably my OCD.

ppn

Puberty blockers are not reversible.

nullzero

All sorts of issues have been discussed in this thread.

As with all these type of topics lots of people lose their posting privileges during the course of discussion for various reasons but taking the most recent topics of discussion as a signal that the thread has run its course isn't a reasonable position.

In a purely Irish context we still have the spectre of a left leaning government arriving in the near future who want to tax foreign investors to the hilt and "nationalise" absolutely everything.

Meanwhile our far right parties remain almost non existent and or totally incompetent yet get blamed for everything negative that happens in the country. Quite a trick they're pulling off, some sort of trick of quantum mechanics, Schrodingers Fascists.

So while some might like to say that the left are a benign force that only exist for the betterment of all, in reality they're the only political extremists in this country who have the potential to unleash absolutel mayhem.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796951#Comment_120796951

Lot of assumptions there regarding the governments political stance (neither party in the coalition is left-wing - they're both center-right) but that's probably based on persepctive. If you're further right than the parties, then chances are you'll see them as left, but that doesn't mean they actually are. The positive thing is that both far left and far right are both fringe elements in this country and therefore pretty benign. But - again - that's the far element.

I'm still yet to see a credible thread from the left that isn't extremist. The tax and nationalisation points you raise are vague at best and it's this vagueness that makes me think you're clutching at straws, so again: I've been in this thread a long time and no one's presented credible non fear-based concrete evidence of a threat, and I kind of feel that, if said threat existed, someone would have done so by now.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796864#Comment_120796864

Neither is tylenol but you can cease taking them. ((?))

2Greyfoxes

Real danger comes from the polarisation of people within a country. It is getting to the point that even small left views get labelled far left and small right views get labelled far right.

As long as we continue to see people as belonging to either one tribes we rup ourselves apart.

Very rarely are people 100% either left or right. There is a lot of commonality between people... just the Internet highlights the worst in people and presents it as the normal, that and people use it in place of a social life, so have little real world experience.

The Internet, like any great tool can be used for good or for bad, it is all about how we use it.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797025#Comment_120797025

I didn't say the current government was left wing.

I said that the spectre of a left leaning government arriving in the near future is an issue.

How you interpreted that as me describing the current government coalition as left wing is a mystery to me.

Sinn Fein have stated that they would raise taxation on foreign corporations, they received the largest share of the vote in the last general election of any party in the country.

People Before Profit have TD's in the Dail in opposition who want to nationalise everything they can think of, one of their TD's Gino Kenny released a manifesto this year which projected that were a left wing or left leaning government to be elected that the Gardai and Defence Forces would, under the instruction of what he described as Far right Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, launch an armed coup against said left leaning government.

This man is currently sitting in our parliament in opposition. Justin Barrett is a little wannabe fascist scumbag but he will never be within an assess roar of Leinster House.

You don't see evidence? You're not paying attention. You can't even rationalise simple concepts (your above post as addressed at the beginning of this post is an example of this) but we're to take your word for it that the left pose no danger to society? You'll excuse me if I seek my guidance from somebody else.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797080#Comment_120797080

I didn't say the current government was left wing.

Fair point, my apologies, but uness Sinn Fein get in, I don't see them getting in without an overall majority which is never going to happen. The others are too small to threaten. People before Profit is not a threat. Barrett is definitely not a threat.

It's scarmongering.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797106#Comment_120797106

People Before Profit, a far left party are in our parliament.

We have no such representation from the far right, yet everything negative in this country is attributed to the far right.

Talk about scaremongering.

I'm sure you're calling out all the scaremongering going on with regards to the "far right" who you said in your own post are "definitely not a threat".

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797121#Comment_120797121

Being in parliament does not make them being in government and just because there's no far-right presence doesn't mean they're a threat.

It honestly just sounds like you're scared of anything left-wing at this point, hence the accusation of scaremongering.

Uncharted2

Leo Varadkar is very dangerous along with Simon Coveney (who many forget is in government).

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796951#Comment_120796951

Well come on now, you’ve managed to propose Schrödingers Leftists in all fairness given this was your earlier assessment of the Left -

That's the problem with the left, all moral crusades and paranoid nonsense and no real actionable ideas that benefit anyone.

You’re then expecting anyone should be concerned about the Left. If you’re not, why should anyone else care?

Seems like they’re incapable of doing anything, let alone declaring a truce from infighting amongst themselves long enough to form a Government. Gino Kenny is taken about as seriously as Paul Murphy or Mary Lou McDonald. The idea of a credible threat from the Left is laughable 😁

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797164#Comment_120797164

Being in parliament doesn't make them being in government?

I'm not following this clap trap. I don't like criticising people's grammar but this is a constant with you. It's so pronounced that your points are incredibly difficult to follow.

We can measure the potential threat of far left and far right ideologies by how parties that represent those beliefs perform in elections.

By using these factual metrics we can see that the far right is not a threat in Ireland while the far left are not only a threat but they are becoming the establishment in many ways.

You think I'm scaremongering and afraid of "anything left wing", well there's grounds for concern about the influence of the left wing. Grounds for concern based on facts and observable evidence.

No such evidence exists to support the scaremongering about the far right in this country yet it is a cry we hear more than any other these days.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797307#Comment_120797307

You've managed to circumvent reality in quite an astonishing way.

You take the quote I made above several pages back and completely fail to understand it and take it wildly out of context. Bravo.

Then you go on to list out elected sitting TD's as exemplars for left wing politicians that no one takes seriously. They're all not taken seriously to the point that they were elected to the Dail.

The idea of a credible argument from a leftist is laughable and you've proven that beautifully above.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797435#Comment_120797435

Government is currently a coalition of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Green party. There is a difference between being in parliamnent and being in government, so you can withdraw the grammar accusations.

I'm not dealing with far anything. Neither far left nor far right are a threat in terms of political power. I've said countless times that the threats come from the extremists not the moderates - but in Ireland they simply don't have the numbers. But this isn't about far anything, so put the goalposts back. If "we have no far right to balance the far left" is all you have, then we're done here.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797454#Comment_120797454

Oh the grammar issue exists, you should have said "being in parliament doesn't equate to them being in government" or something to that effect.

I don't like saying things like that about peoples grammar but you persist with it to the point that it's difficult to understand what you're saying. I wouldn't mind if you hadn't been so rude to me previously.

The far left are literally in parliament and you suggest they aren't any sort of threat? The far right are not comparable to the far left in Ireland yet you would put them on an equal footing.

I'm sorry but you can't ignore reality to suit your beliefs. I'm not moving goalposts here, you are, yet you accuse me of the same. I'm dealing in facts, you are dealing in opinion.

And if you want to pin your hopes of winning an argument on another posters opinions I'd suggest looking beyond the poster you named and their ill informed fact-phobic diatribes.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797447#Comment_120797447

I understood it perfectly within the context in which it was written, but then you go and contradict it yet again with Sinn Fein and Gino Kenny as your examples of a credible threat which you’re purporting should be taken seriously, even though they are as you suggest “all moral crusades and paranoid nonsense and no actionable ideas that benefit anyone”. I agree with your assessment, and I’d throw Ivana Bacik, Alan Kelly and Holly Cairns in there too.

Being elected to the Dail doesn’t mean they are in Government, you know this, so your earlier petty jibe at another poster when you’re aware that they’re referring to the Left being relegated to being in Opposition rings hollow tbh.

Yet again you’re contradicting yourself by claiming that the idea of a credible argument coming from a leftist is laughable, and I’ve proven it beautifully, but you still claim that there’s any sort of a credible threat coming from the Left.

Why would I, as someone who is politically Conservative Right, imagine the Left present any sort of a credible threat? They’re not even a credible alternative for the people who vote for them as they have no policies even worth engaging with.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797532#Comment_120797532

You can't have understood what I said correctly and then written the rest of that post.

You dismiss the potential of Sinn Fein et al even though Sinn Fein received more votes than any other party in the last general election.

The current coalition was cobbled together to ensure Sinn Fein couldn't get into power, it wasn't starting from a position of strength. And make no mistake things have not improved in relation to the issues people were led to vote for Sinn Fein for. Housing health etc are all still a disaster, but they will be exponentially worse with a coalition of Sinn Fein and assorted lefties in power.

Making grandiose claims about free this and free that for all has been Sinn Fein's calling card, and that is not actionable at all, add to that the "nationalise everything" rhetoric of People Before Profit etc and you have a recipe for disaster.

These grifters could very well come to power on the back of promises of easy solutions that they could ruin the country attempting to deliver.

There is a more compelling case to be made for the potential danger posed by the left than there is for danger posed by the far right in this country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797473#Comment_120797473

Regardimg the grammar issue - you know the difference berween being in parliament and being in government. You're not an idiot. I didn't say it that way for this reason. If you misread it, ok - but that's not my fault and nothing to do with grammar.

Regarding the.far left issue - not what I said. I said neither has the numbers to be a threat. I didn't say one was stongger or weaker than the other. Again, you know this - you know what I wrote. Just to add: it would take sonething seismic for either to become a threat, and i don't see that happening.

I'm.not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to illustrate a pont. Which is getting increasingly futile because you keep reading something contra to what I wrote. And there's nothing I can do about that.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798224#Comment_120798224

One is stronger than the other.

This is measurable through election results.

Here... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

So when you say that the far left isn't any stronger than the far right you're not making a statement based in fact as illustrated above.

You're not making sense, and I'm guessing it's because the facts outlined above are something you haven't been conversant with until now. Not that it stopped you from speaking as some sort of authority on the subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798288#Comment_120798288

Quoting the very post you replied to:

I didn't say one was stringer or weaker than the other.

Again - you're not reading what I've posted!!

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798525#Comment_120798525

Your point a few posts back was that neither the far right or far left had the numbers to be a threat. The facts don't corroborate that as outlined in the election results.