You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803359#Comment_120803359

I linked to their bloody economic policy ffs. From their website, that is their policy. You're being completely unreasonable now.

All you're doing is ignoring facts at this stage.

First you wanted proof they said they wanted to nationalise wealth, I provided it. It wasn't good enough.

Then you said you wanted proof it was official party policy I provided it. It isn't good enough.

Now you're on to the probability of PBP ever being in a position to impliment their policies, it is a possibility were Sinn Fein to increase their support base but that's not something you think is a possibility so I'm scaremongering according to you.

I've jumped through every hoop you asked me to and you keep moving the goalposts.

You've consistently provided nothing but your own uninformed opinion here. I've offered facts and you constantly state that your opinion over rules provable fact.

When you have more to offer than your opinion then maybe people can begin to take you seriously.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803404#Comment_120803404

I linked to their bloody economic policy ffs. From their website, that is their policy. You're being completely unreasonable now.

The policy as you presented it does not appear on the page you linked to, and you know it. Stop whiniging because you got fact-checked.

We're done here.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803559#Comment_120803559

I got fact checked?

The absolute hubris.

The link takes you directly to the People Before Profit website specifically to their economic policy. It even displays that in the link I posted.

Here it is again...

https://www.pbp.ie/policies/economic-policy/

Here's a screen grab from the top of the page in question...

It appears exactly as stated.

I'm not whinging and you have done nothing like "fact check" me. I'm not sure you have a reasonable grasp of what a fact actually is tbh.

You have some bizarre need to declare victory at every opportunity which is odd because this isn't a contest and you have provided nothing beyond your own opinion.

Fact check. Chortle.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803869#Comment_120803869

No, I just have no desire to have endless circular arguments, so I'll say this one last time then leave.

Claim - PBP want to nationlise people's persona wealth. Quote attached.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801992#Comment_120801992

Fact - The link and screenshot that you have produced on multimple occasions DO NOT CONTAIN ANY MENTION OF nationalisation of people's personal wealth.

NOW we're done here.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804051#Comment_120804051

If you actually read the policy document you'd realise you're talking nonsense.

You just want your opinion to be regarded as infallible. Well I'm sorry your opinion is full of holes, completely unresearched and reliant solely on your own ideals.

Even when you're spoon fed information you refuse to even read it properly.

And this "we're done" punctuation to your posts is laughable. We're only done when you feel you've had the last word, the problem for you is you never have anything valid to submit as a last word. As will be evidenced when you reply yet again despite your declaration of being averse to endless circular arguments.

The dynamic here is that you demand evidence then refute the evidence provided without anything resembling a reasonable methodology and declare yourself to have been right all along.

It's actually quite amusing.

Flaneur OBrien

@nullzero You’re wrong.

Absolutely nowhere does it state that PBP want to “Nationalise Peoples wealth”.

Nowhere.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804584#Comment_120804584

If you follow the link and read under the heading "Redistribute Economic Resources" you'll find your assertion to be incorrect.

It was there all along if you cared to read it.

Somewhere.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804706#Comment_120804706

If you really cared, you could provide a link or a screenshot instead of vague, “It’s over there” instructions.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805015#Comment_120805015

How much hand holding do you require?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805015#Comment_120805015

Needless to say, the redistribute section he re-directed us to has no mention of it either.

Redistribute Economic Resources

Irish capitalism has led to unacceptable levels of income and wealth inequalities. If the income created in Ireland was shared out equally, it would provide €55,000 for every person per annum. This is clearly not happening, however. Earlier we noted the fact that large sections of the population are living in poverty. The other side of this coin is vast accumulations of wealth. The figures below give some sense of the problem.

People Before Profit is committed to making sure that everyone has enough to live with dignity and respect. To do this, we would implement a raft of measures that would tackle the wealth and incomes of the top 5-7% of the population. This would have a number of important benefits. In the first instance, it would make Irish society a fairer and more just place to live. It is not acceptable that workers – who are the real wealth creators – do not get the bulk of the rewards from their work. Instead, it flows to the top of society, creating powerful lobby groups that work hard to protect the status quo.

By redistributing wealth we would also be redistributing political and economic power. This is essential for a functioning democracy. We would also eradicate poverty, deprivation and economic insecurity. Meanwhile, those at the top would still have extremely comfortable lives. This is surely a political choice worth making. Below we summarise the main measures we would take to even out the resources created in Ireland.

Close corporation tax loopholes and double the tax take. Ireland’s official rate of 12.5% is too low – but corporations do not even pay this. Because of a host of loopholes, the effective rate is between 4-5%. This is far lower than an average worker would pay. Corporations should pay a minimum rate of 20% on their profits – which is what low paid workers pay on their wages. But it should also be pushed up higher.

Make Apple pay their back taxes. In 2016 the EU Commission exposed Ireland as a tax haven. Deals made by the Irish Revenue Commissioners in 1991 and 2007 allowed Apple to get away with a tax rate of less than 2%. They now owe the Irish people €13 billion, plus interest – a total of €18-19 billion. This would go a long way to developing an indigenous development strategy but instead, the Irish government is spending millions in order to refuse the money. People Before Profit would drop all legal cases and take the money immediately.

A Tax on Millionaires. People Before Profit would levy a tax of 2% on the top 5% of wealth holders. Before this would kick in, however, we would allow one million euros to be set aside for their family home. This would affect the richest 18,000 households in the state, each of whom has roughly €3 million in accumulated wealth. The tax would bring in roughly €3.25 billion annually.

New Taxes on High Earners. People Before Profit would introduce new tax bands on those lucky enough to earn more than €100,000 per annum. The table below shows the initiative

This would likely bring in €2.25 billion annually.

Higher Rates of Employers PRSI. Irish employers pay significantly lower PRSI than their European counterparts. To bring them more into line, PBP proposes increasing each of the current rates by 2%. We would also introduce a special high earners PRSI contribution of 19.75%. This is estimated to bring in €1.4 billion.

Introduce a Financial Transactions Tax. The financial sector bears primary responsibility for the economic collapse of 2008. Ireland currently has the fifteenth largest international financial sector in the world and the fourth largest shadow banking system. This makes the economy extremely vulnerable to financial crises. It also allows big finance too much control. The Irish Financial Services Centre currently manages €1.9 trillion in assets. One way to tackle the financial sector is to impose a financial transaction tax. A Financial Transactions Tax of 0.1% on Transactions of Shares and Securities and 0.01% on Derivatives would bring in €610 million. This would reduce speculation and give the state something towards the social cost of the last crisis.

End the Status of Tax Exiles. The Irish rich want it both ways. They want to use Irish services to make their money, but they don’t want to pay for it. People Before Profit would end the charade of people pretending to live in Ireland for half the year, but paying nothing to provide public services. To do this we would end the tax-dodging status of Irish non-residents.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805284#Comment_120805284

What do you think "Redistributing wealth" actually means?

Further to this discussion, you picked on that topic in isolation but these ding dongs are also looking to nationalise the energy sector, banking, the insurance sector and on and on.

Who funds this? Because it would cost more than what they could ever make from their "Redistributing wealth" proposal.

People Before Profit deal in proposals of cathartic revenge fantasies against the rich. And I'm all for sticking it to the rich but in reality none of their ideas are actionable, but somehow their support keeps increasing which is worrying because there must be a lot of gullible voters out there swallowing whatever these grifters feed them.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805343#Comment_120805343

Where does it say “Nationalising Peoples Wealth?” You’re going to have to be specific here, because I cannot see it anywhere. I see talk of progressive taxation. Is that what you are referring to?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805356#Comment_120805356

I've already posted this today but here you go...

And the link to the Oireacthas website I posted earlier...

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/3/

All the other things Princess asked for are at the top of the page.

You could always just read the posts from earlier but that seems to be a point of contention for some around these parts.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805343#Comment_120805343

Seems I’m unable to cite this particular point in your previous post -

People Before Profit deal in proposals of cathartic revenge fantasies against the rich. And I'm all for sticking it to the rich but in reality none of their ideas are actionable, but somehow their support keeps increasing which is worrying because there must be a lot of gullible voters out there swallowing whatever these grifters feed them.

I think it’s only fair to put that increase in support in its proper context - PBP are up by one point, to 2%. They’re not even at the races in terms of gaining enough political power to make any changes in policies. Therefore while they may be enjoying an increase in support, it’s motivated by people’s desire for an alternative to FF/FG, traditionally the parties which hold the majority of political power in Ireland, and by the looks of it, they shall continue to do so -

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0615/1389242-poll/

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/03/02/wealthy-will-use-control-over-the-media-to-turn-population-against-left-wing-government-says-pbp/

You’ve previously implied that the national media are controlled by Leftist influences, PBP are claiming the media is controlled by the wealthy, who aim to ensure that the Left are kept out of Government, yet it would appear the Left are who’s keeping the Left out of Government because they don’t want to go into Government with other Leftists.

There’s no danger from the Left when they can’t even organise themselves in Opposition to present a viable alternative to the current Government, so it doesn’t matter how popular they become, they’ll quickly be forced out of Government when they are found to be unable to deliver on any of their ideas which they claim are for the benefit of Irish society.

There’s also the conundrum they would have to deal with that if they were to gain political power, they would have to ask themselves - are they now The Establishment? Once again -

nachouser

Ok, so should the thread be renamed to "You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from SF and PBP"?

That seems to be where we've landed. Maybe merge it with a politics thread?

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805671#Comment_120805671

Or maybe just nuke the thread entirely because the base premise is a load of old bollocks, and it was started by a banned poster who's reason for it in the first place was a petty revenge fantasy because the "You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Right" thread made him feel icky.

chopperbyrne

Pretty sure a moderator in that thread said something along the lines of "This thread is about discussing dangers coming from the right, start one about the left if you want to discuss that."

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808145#Comment_120808145

Both threads should be renamed to something like "the problems with the right/left".

The dangers from the right thread should never have been a template for how these things should be discussed that thread was basically the OP telling everyone what's wrong with the world according to them and if you don't like it get lost.

There's no nuance in how these threads currently operate.

Any moron can see the far right AND the far left are BOTH dangerous yet we're having these discussions fit inside parameters set by one individual who has been grinding the same axe as long as they've been in the site.

CA needs a bit of a shake up and the above would be one part of it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810185#Comment_120810185

Thata because people can't tell the difference between left and far left then lie and exaggerate to create non-existant threats - it's happened with ar least three posters and that's why this thread is redundant.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810500#Comment_120810500

Of course there are threats from the far-left, which invariably involve around social and cultural matters, censorship etc.; more so than violence, which characterises the far-right.

Threats don't have to include cases of violence. There are other threats that groups can pose to society and culture.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812258#Comment_120812258

Such as?

You can’t go that far without giving examples!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted, misread post

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812258#Comment_120812258

Emphasis on the word 'far'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812467#Comment_120812467

I gave many examples earlier in this thread, some of which were:

• BLM rioting and destroying cities in the US.
• What is referred to as "cancel culture", or what I would prefer to call cowardly submission to a hypersensitive minority.
• Creation of safe spaces in university, where young adults are effectively taught to protect their ideas from criticism.
• Companies that force staff to wear pronoun badges, forcing people to adhere to a specific gender ideology / C-16 bill in Canada.
• Rejection of biological science when it comes to self-identification.
• Erosion of women's rights in the fields of sport etc.
• Arguing that some young children should take puberty blockers on the basis of self-ID.
• Affirmative action.
• Identity politics, pitting group identities against one another in a hierarchy of victimhood / intersectionality.
• The idea that racism is abhorrent, but that "white people" are privileged and should be punished because of what their ancestors did centuries ago / promoting so-called "critical race theory" in schools that creates more division than anything else.
• Increasingly arguing that censorship is justified through the creation of so-called "hate speech" laws.
• Maniacal Just Stop Oil and similar organizations causing havoc in society.
• Banning comedians and creating a chilling effect that comedians cannot make certain jokes in case those jokes cause "offense" to a certain group.
• Virtue signalling to appear inclusive, even though it causes nothing but division.

This list isn't even exhaustive, by the way.

Now I agree that many people use "Woke" in different ways. It's not my preferred term either. But when I talk about threats coming from the left, I'm talking about the list above. When you talk about one tiny example, it all seems a bit pointless. But when you zoom out and comprehend the scale of changes demanded by the far-left in society, you start to see a much bigger, much more malign influence at play.

The question everyone has to ask themselves is this -- is society better today because of the above list of changes over the past number of years, or is it made worse and more divisive?

I suggest the latter.

And that constitutes a threat, a legitimate threat and one that remains ever present and ever more vocal.

In fact, I would argue that as bad as the far-right are in their actions and words, they are outmatched by the sheer scale of societal and cultural damage that the far-left has and continues to pose today.

Note: not "the left", but the far-left. Much of the modern left are equally as appalled by many of these things, as they are counter to what the left originally stood up for.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813691#Comment_120813691

First of all, I have to genuinely say thank you for providing a bullet list of dangers coming from the left. I appreciate it a lot, and I’m sure @nullzero will be happy to see that it is easy to put things succinctly and easy to read bullet points.

So on with the show…

I’ll disagree with your use of language as no cities were “destroyed”. All the cities that had BLM marches in them continue to operate as cities today. In fact, they were far more peaceful than not. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/16/this-summers-black-lives-matter-protesters-were-overwhelming-peaceful-our-research-finds/

Cancel culture. I honestly find this surprising as I find the right tend to throw hissy fits and “cancel” more than the left. Budweiser, drag shows, children’s books on libraries, all cancelled by the right. People often say someone like JK Rowling has been “cancelled” by the left, but she’s still got a huge base, releasing films, books, games etc… If she was “cancelled” surely she’d be put out of business?

Look, I won’t go through them all, but needless to say, most of these I disagree with as being a danger or, they’re just untrue, for example, CRT is a niche college subject, to say it is taught in schools in anything close to a mainstream subject would be a lie.

Also, no comedians have been banned by the left. Even the worst ones… (Looking at you Ricky Gervais!) They still have Netflix specials and tour stadia.

I see the usual group has turned this thread into another ‘everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ convoluted off topic spamfest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813757#Comment_120813757

I wouldn't expect you to go through the list either, as it's too time consuming. I was attempting to flesh out the broad contours of what I mean when I consider threats from the far-left. You may disagree with me, but you can at least see my vantage point.

I could have added many, many others -- such as the recent argument that famous works of fiction written centuries ago should have their text edited to be less "offensive" to the audience of today.

Do you think this is a net positive development?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813789#Comment_120813789

Which? The books? Absolutely not. I’m not against “millennia editions” or whatever they want to call the edited versions, as long as the originals stay available.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813789#Comment_120813789

I also think it’s OK for Disney to have their, “This was made in a different time where different viewpoints were held” type warnings on media with racist/homophobic/etc. connotations on their media. I much prefer that to seeing media getting butchered in the editing room

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813800#Comment_120813800

So you do support editing works of fiction, re-writing the context of how the authors wrote the books.

You can frame it in terms of "millennia editions" which is the first time I've heard that phrase and I very much hope the last, because it sounds like a propagandizing term used to promote editing famous texts and works of fiction.

Nobody should have a right to do that. The only person who has / had the right to do that is the author of the text.

Ban the text or make the text free and unedited, but it should never be edited -- no matter how offensive the text is to some readers.