You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819928#Comment_120819928

Let me clarify further then, as it appears you may have misunderstood my point.

Discussing trans in school is fine. I don't have any objection to it, in the same way that I wouldn't be against teaching that gay people exist in the world. But let's say that some students were forced to believe that biological sex doesn't matter -- that self-identification is the equivalent of "being a woman / man".

At that stage, ideology is supplanting biological reality. That's where it would cross the line. Teaching faith-based ideological beliefs is counter to the function of an effective school.

In the same way that teaching that Flat Earthers exist is fine, but forcing students to believe the Earth is actually flat would cross the line.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819971#Comment_120819971

My stance is teach it and be done with it. No need to protect students from learning.

Your other issues are 1) not knowing the difference between biological sexes and genders, and 2) assuming you know what's on the curriculum.

Flat earth is a false analogy as science has different approaches to gender and planetary geometry.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820081#Comment_120820081

No need to protect students from learning.

On what basis would you be against forcing students to believe that the Earth is flat?

It's a hypothetical question of course, but what would be your rationale (if any) not to force students to believe it?

And second to that, is it ever morally acceptable for a school to teach false science?

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820101#Comment_120820101

Wheres this whole "forcing" thing coming from?

You appear to not know what "teaching" is if you keep using the word "forcing".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820112#Comment_120820112

I'm being very specific in my questioning here.

We saw what happened in some UK schools where some students said they believed there were only 2 genders (related to sex), and they were asked to find an alternative school.

That's what "force" looks like.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820130#Comment_120820130

But npt your answers of course.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820101#Comment_120820101

You don't know the difference between fact and theory either. Science does, and that's why they'reustened to.

Nor do you know the difference between 'teach' and 'force to believe'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820160#Comment_120820160

As happened in the UK, if some students say they believe in the existence of only two genders (which isn't my position, by the way) and that trans women are not women, should those students be punished?

Is that an acceptable position for students to hold?

Should schools teach that "trans women are women" as a statement of fact?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820130#Comment_120820130

Were they expelled?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820194#Comment_120820194

My question was specific:

Should schools teach that "trans women are women" as a statement of fact?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820193#Comment_120820193

Students can believe whatever they want - as long as its informed and they can defend their stance. No different from.anyone else.

How can they believe something if no one's allowed to reach them..??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820220#Comment_120820220

That's fine, but it's not what I asked.

I'll try one last time:

Should schools teach that "trans women are women" as a statement of fact?

It's a very, very straightforward question.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820210#Comment_120820210

Why can’t you just answer a question?

You said, “They were asked to find an alternative school”

This wasn’t some sort of “Gotcha” from me. You implied (or I misconstrued) that they had been expelled. Hence I asked in what should have come across as conversational manner, “Were they expelled?”

Jeez man, you need to chill out sometimes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820267#Comment_120820267

Why can’t you just answer a question?

Ironic, because I have thrice asked a question that continues to go ignored.

It's quite obvious to readers of the thread why my question is being jettisoned aside.

It's an inconvenient question, and we all know why.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820277#Comment_120820277

Man, I give up.

I wasn’t involved in the convo you were having, I was literally just asking if the girls that recorded the teachers were expelled.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820306#Comment_120820306

They weren't expelled. But nobody claimed they were. It's a red herring.

But given I have answered your question, are you at least willing to answer mine:

Should schools teach that "trans women are women" as a statement of fact?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820233#Comment_120820233

No, ot should ve taught as theory - but 8t should still be taught. Despite your mythological concerns.

How else do you expect students to learn??

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820315#Comment_120820315

No, because I don’t want to be part of that conversation.

Have a good night fella.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820319#Comment_120820319

No, it should be taught as theory - but it should still be taught.

As ideological theory, not fact. And because it's taught as "theory", you are arguing it's not a fact.

That's a start. I agree with you.

It logically follows then that you presumably believe students who don't believe in that "theory" shouldn't be punished?

So we're seeing some kind of consensus form here, however unwilling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820321#Comment_120820321

Perhaps because I asked a good question.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820334#Comment_120820334

Where did I give you the impression that students should be 'punished'...??

Also, cab we now, once and for all, agree that your 'concerns' about teaching about trans issues we're undoubded? Or can you specify them at this point?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820412#Comment_120820412

You stated that the proposition "trans women are women" should be introduced to students as a "theory", and not taught as "fact":

No, it should be taught as theory - but it should still be taught. 

That's enough for me as far as I'm concerned.

Because I agree, that "theory" should be introduced to students, just as much as other theories prevalent in society may be introduced to students.

For the most part, we're on the same page.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820428#Comment_120820428

You stated that the proposition "trans women are women" should be introduced to students as a "theory", and not taught as "fact":

I did? Where...?

Think that might have been someone else?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820277#Comment_120820277

What’s obvious as far as I’m concerned is that your question is fundamentally flawed. Schools can, and do teach whatever the hell they wish. Princess pointed it out to you earlier that all schools are based upon promoting their own ideology, or their beliefs, or values, through education. The question of whether or not schools should teach as fact whatever they want to teach, whether it’s Young Earth Creationism, Christianity, Islam, Gender Theory, Feminism, whatever, just doesn’t arise. Your idea that schools shouldn’t promote ideologies is frankly absurd - that’s their whole purpose, to provide education in accordance with their ideology.

You’re choosing to frame indoctrination as forcing children to believe something, when that’s simply impossible to do - you can’t force anyone to believe anything they don’t. The reason why the students you referred to earlier in the UK whom you admit believe there are only two genders (they weren’t forced to believe anything), were expelled*, is because they violated the school’s code of conduct. That’s what happens when students violate the school’s code of conduct. It doesn’t happen just because students believe there are only two genders.

To put your question in it’s proper context makes it much more straightforward to answer, particularly in an Irish context where Young Earth Creationism isn’t taught in Irish schools (that’s more a phenomenon in public schools in the US, where much of this culture wars guff emanates from) -

I don’t think Catholic schools should be forced to teach children in accordance with an ideology which is inconsistent with their own. You said earlier that teaching faith-based ideological beliefs is counter to the function of an effective school. You offered nothing to support that view, and you don’t have to because it appears to be based entirely on your own subjective assessment. Faith-based schools have been the primary providers of education across the globe for millennia, and in Ireland they have been the primary providers of education for the last century at least. I’d question on what basis are you making an assessment of their effectiveness but I don’t think you’ve thought about it all that much, other than simply because you don’t approve of it.

That’s a decision for parents to make in the interests of their own children. It’s why Patrons offering an alternative to Catholic Education in Ireland are able to point to the fact that their schools aren’t just oversubscribed, they’re also half-filled with Catholic students already and parents who want their children educated about LGBT issues and Feminism and all the rest of it. There is no danger coming from the Left in that context, because alternative providers of education in Ireland who want to promote their ideological beliefs and wish to educate children in accordance with their beliefs, only make up about 5% of schools in Ireland. The rest, 95% are all religious ethos schools, which exist to promote their own ideological beliefs through the provision of education.

That’s one possible explanation as to why people aren’t bothered addressing your question, not because they think it’s inconvenient, but rather because they think it’s stupid, and lacking in so much context that they really can’t be bothered entertaining it.

*The students I’m thinking of were expelled. Yourself and Flaneur must be referring to different cases because you didn’t mention the gender of the students in your post, Flaneur mentioned girls. The cases I’m thinking of involved boys who were expelled, but there’s a few cases anyways with some students suspended for their behaviour, and some likely to be expelled -

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/34-pupils-suspended-after-unisex-26405216

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820461#Comment_120820461

Here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820319#Comment_120820319

Or have you suddenly changed your mind?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820465#Comment_120820465

That’s one possible explanation as to why people aren’t bothered addressing your question, not because they think it’s inconvenient, but rather because they think it’s stupid, and lacking in so much context that they really can’t be bothered entertaining it.

I'm not engaging in your arguments any further against my position as a direct consequence of comments like this.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820482#Comment_120820482

What was so offensive to you about what I said? You appeared to be operating under the impression that you genuinely believed nobody was willing to entertain your question because it was inconvenient, and you claimed it was obvious to the readers of this thread why your question was being jettisoned aside, and you claimed we all know why.

I offered an alternative possible explanation as to why your question was going unanswered, one that I can now see hadn’t occurred to you - it’s just a stupid question, lacking in so much context that people can’t be bothered to even entertain it. I didn’t avoid your question, and you can’t claim any longer that it continues to go unanswered. Your choosing not to engage with my answer to your question is entirely your own business. I’d like to know what you thought was so offensive about it, but you’re under no obligation to provide an answer.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820466#Comment_120820466

How did you get from "it should be taught as theory" to "trans women are women"...?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820598#Comment_120820598

To be fair to rapidash, he didn’t get anything from “it should be taught as theory”, other than the fact that you had posted that the idea should be taught as theory -

Should schools teach that "trans women are women" as a statement of fact?

No, ot should ve taught as theory - but 8t should still be taught. Despite your mythological concerns.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820682#Comment_120820682

But I did not make the statement "transwomen are women" - and the point was that the issues should be raised and kids should be educated.. if he'd asked 'transwomen aren't women" he'd have gotten the same answer.

I'll never be in favour of keeping teenage students in secondary school ignorant of modern.day social issues, regardless of what my personal stance is. I don't see what's to be gained by this.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821070#Comment_120821070

Nobody is suggesting you made the statement, just that you’re of the opinion it should be taught as theory, not as fact.

Nobody is suggesting either that students in secondary school be kept ignorant of modern day social issues, but I know what you mean - just putting your own stance out there. Me personally I think if a patron body wishes to teach children about these things from the perspective of their ideology - crack on. I do think that parents should have more choices in education available to them, but that’s the States responsibility, not the Patrons.

Parents are already free to make choices for their children in terms of their education, and nobody, either teachers, parents or students, is being forced to believe anything, contrary to the impression rapidash has of education.