You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831573#Comment_120831573

I never said what you accused me of saying. I was addressing this situation in isolation.

Your response is to be intentionally rude.

How does that engender a respectful discussion?

The alternative you provided (which I wager you might be alone in feeling was more reasonable and rational) was that calling for TERFS to be punched on sight was not a credible incitement to violence.

If a far right group was saying a particular group of people should be punched on sight would you suggest they should not be prosecuted for incitement to violence?

Just because it's a man dressed in a certain way espousing opinions that are fashionable the reasonable interpretation is that it wasn't a credible threat?

You are ignoring the fact that this person made that statement whilst holding an Antifa flag which unfortunately for your reasonable and rational argument puts them and their opinions in the realm of political opinion and beliefs, removing their opinions from that requires the observer to be willfully ignorant of an important element of the context in which the statement was made.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831696#Comment_120831696

It was touched upon earlier that the radical elements of the left are not challenged and therefore become more influential than they should be.

The left has for some time had a problem with regulating it's more extreme voices which undermines the left on a broader scale.

The line from fringe to more mainstream left wing views/opinions is generally more visible than on the right. Moderate right wing voices are deathly afraid of their more extreme counterparts ever being associated with them so a distance is maintained in most democratic countries at least. You could argue that is an act of self preservation but that's a separate discussion.

The left on the other hand are deathly afraid of offending their more extreme counterparts and allow them to do and say as they please and maintain association with them, lest they be seen to not support something they feel they should be seen to support.

We can see this in action in Ireland where a wing nut like Gino Kenny is sitting in opposition in the Dail while at the same time, with a straight face no less, having a manifesto where he outlines and grand conspiracy between the Gardai and Defence Forces with what he perceives to be far right Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to oust any left leaning government that might be elected via an armed insurrection.

The problem is extremism, if we had an organised far right that did more than bicker amongst themselves and quote passages from Mein Kampf in this country I'd be railing against them, but we don't, we have far left wing nuts in this jurisdiction and they need to be at the very least called out for what they are.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831841#Comment_120831841

You said exactly what I reproduced as you having said, because I double-checked and made sure I wasn’t misrepresenting your opinion or citing you out of context. You say I ignore the fact that this person made the statement while holding an Antifa flag, but I didn’t, and I can show you where I didn’t too, and it’s not unfortunate for me at all to put their opinions in the political realm, because that was the reason I gave initially as to why they would be unlikely to be prosecuted for incitement to violence - political speech is permitted under UK law, and the CPS would be unlikely to pursue a prosecution because they would look stupid for pursuing a prosecution against the individual in an attempt to make an example of them.

I’m not being rude, I’m arguing that the reason you observe people aren’t interested in ‘calling out’ their behaviour is because people aren’t interested in entertaining stupidity. This thread isn’t concerned with the far-right, so I won’t be indulging your example, certainly not when my position has always been that the lack of reaction or response to stupidity isn’t because people are afraid to call it out, it’s because they don’t see stupidity as being worth entertaining.

In it’s most simple terms - people say stupid shìt, nobody cares, like when Posie Parker, who claimed to be ‘politically homeless’, came out with this absolute clanger on her YouTube channel -

“I’ve had a bit of an idea,” she said, “about some of the things you can do and men, for once, I’m talking to you.

“I’m talking about you dads, who maybe carry – I think that’s what you say, I’m so down with the American lingo.

“Maybe you carry, maybe you don’t. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women, maybe you’re that sort of man.

“Maybe you have a daughter or a mother, or a wife, maybe you have a sister. Maybe you have friends, maybe you just think women are human and you don’t need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us.

“I think you should start using women’s toilets, men.”

https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/01/30/gender-critical-feminist-posie-parker-men-guns-womens-toilets-twitter/

Some people tried to claim it was incitement to violence, most people who saw it simply dismissed it, rather than entertain that level of stupidity.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832003#Comment_120832003

Saying stupid **** to a baying crowd is incitement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832091#Comment_120832091

What's remarkable is that if a far-right speaker said the same league of comment, we'd hear nothing but condemnation -- and rightly so.

But when the hateful speech comes from the far-left, all we hear is obfuscation and attempts at minimization.

The hypocrisy stinks.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831965#Comment_120831965

The left on the other hand are deathly afraid of offending their more extreme counterparts and allow them to do and say as they please and maintain association with them, lest they be seen to not support something they feel they should be seen to support.

This bit I disagree with: the moderate left aren't offended, they're just more likely to try and find common ground than attack on the basis that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Not familiar with Gino Kenny, can't comment

Rest of your post, I'd be inclined to agree with, but I don;t see far left as a threat and I still believe the radpidash uses this as an excuse to go on anti-left rants and has been called out on it on a few occasions and been unable to elaborate on exactly why he feels threatened.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827215#Comment_120827215

For a sizeable amount of the activists making women pay is at the root of it all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832303#Comment_120832303

Rest of your post, I'd be inclined to agree with, but I don;t see far left as a threat and I still believe the radpidash uses this as an excuse to go on anti-left rants and has been called out on it on a few occasions and been unable to elaborate on exactly why he feels threatened.

I'm not "threatened" by what the speaker said in that video, but many women may very well feel threatened.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832327#Comment_120832327

Never said you were.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832303#Comment_120832303

Gino Kenny is a sitting TD, part of People Before Profit and a general agitator and wing nut.

The problem I have with the left in Ireland is their holier than thou attitude, childishness (See Paul Murphy's recent exchange with Michael Martin full of schoolboy giggling and snide remarks) and inability to think beyond being agitators and cranks.

They haven't got a notion of how to contribute to the running of the country, and for a group who are hoping to enter a coalition with Sinn Fein at some point in the future their lack of preparedness for the realities of being part of a government is frightening.

The entire proposed route for the country as defined by Sinn Fein and company were they to be elected is stark. Basic realities do not seem to be able to penetrate the external membrane of activist opposition bench small time political mindset that they have.

And this is from somebody who has been wincing at the mess that's been made by FF and FG over the last couple of decades.

Ireland needs a viable alternative to the rot that has set in, my concern is that by voting against the incumbents we could end up with something that ends up being far more damaging. I'd be gladly proven wrong but the noises being made are a serious cause for concern.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833246#Comment_120833246

"I wasn't posting ad hominems"

Proceeds to post a mountain of passive aggressive ad hominems.

• "your statement was so stupid it wasn't worth entertaining".
• "I did accuse you of being incapable of engaging honestly"
• "It was when you accused me of ad-homs that I wondered were you even aware of your own recent behaviour?"

As for this; "I will admit that I was wrong in accusing you of suggesting my argument was bad because you thought I was a Liberal, it was because you thought I was a Leftie -"

I never thought you were a leftie, how that can even be raised as an issue is beyond me when you're talking about posts from within the last 24 hours, the first of which mentioned your self described conservativemism in the first sentence, which was something I saw you post about last week.

As for my "recent behaviour" I'm not sure what you're referring to, but if you take issue with my posting you can report each of my posts.

All I'm seeing in the above post is a lot of thinly veiled jabs and back seat modding.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833335#Comment_120833335

The whataboutery and obfuscation is the whole point, as it detracts from the actual story here -- hence why I decided to totally ignore it and focus on what has actually happened.

And after scouring through the social media response to that footage, I was even more alarmed to find the same obfuscation and whataboutery; and quite a few who actually supported what was said.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833604#Comment_120833604

As if the particular law that would be enforced is relevant. Making threats against somebody for their beliefs is as far as I know an offence under an ammendment made to the offences against the person act in the UK.

Anyone advocating violence against anyone should be vilified and where possible prosecuted.

We've both made the point that a far right loony encouraging violence against groups of people would be subjected to a far greater level of scrutiny. All we're seeing with this situation are attempts to downplay and make excuses for this persons violent rhetoric.

We need to have a zero tolerance approach to dealing with anyone making these type of statements that is applied evenly across the board.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833647#Comment_120833647

It’s not that anyone is downplaying the examples put forward to support the idea of dangers coming from the Left, it’s that you’re trying to amplify the behaviour of an idiot, which you don’t even believe presents a credible threat, but you’re calling for them to be prosecuted for an offence which doesn’t exist in UK law, and claiming that the law which doesn’t exist, which you consider relevant, wouldn’t be applied anyway!

That just doesn’t make any sense.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834036#Comment_120834036

How am I amplifying anything?

The rhetoric they're spouting is inflammatory and should in my opinion, be subject to punishment.

Someone else asked if I felt that this situation was representative of the left as a whole and I said it wasn't but it was problematic because no one on the left would dare denounce it so it gains credibility due to the fear amongst more moderate left wing groups to tackle it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on UK law, I stated they should be subject to punishment because I felt what they said was inciting violence, I believe (and I may be wrong) that encouraging others to assault people based upon their beliefs is something that can be prosecuted in the UK under an ammendment to their offences against the person act.

You're not being particularly reasonable with this element of the discussion, holding me to a standard whereby I should be able to quote laws in another country when most of us wouldn't know how these things work here in Ireland.

I offered commentary, which was based on my own opinion, I never claimed any particular law should be enacted in this case.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834105#Comment_120834105

I’m not holding you to an unreasonable standard at all, I’ve explained previously why they are unlikely to be prosecuted for their actions, and for whatever reason you refuse to accept that, but at least now all you’re arguing is that they should be punished for expressing inflammatory rhetoric. That’s what I mean by your attempting to amplify this incident.

It’s not that anyone on the Left wouldn’t dare denounce it - in order for that to happen they would have to take it seriously in the first place. There’s no fear among more moderate left wing groups to tackle something which they don’t take as seriously as you do. They’re just not offering it any credibility in spite of your best efforts to imply that they’re afraid to say anything.

Do you think it’s at all possible they may regard your efforts as being insincere?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120834465#Comment_120834465

So you attach more weight to your own opinion than mine?

That's essentially the thrust of what you're saying.

I addressed this issue on its own merits and clearly stated that it was not representative of the left in general yet you keep saying I'm amplifying it which can't be substantiated beyond someone just taking your word for it.

Whatever need you have to be seen to be right in any given situation is your issue to deal with.

I have no problem with differing opinions existing.

If you need to be validated sobeit, I've expressed my opinion, you disagree with it, fine.

Like I said this is becoming something more relevant to a PM exchange although I would be reluctant to engage with you in any way going forward due to your inability to make a point without going out of your way to insult me.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835070#Comment_120835070

Well when your opinion consists of suggesting that anyone should be punished and made an example of for what you perceive to be inciting violence, it’s only natural that I would wonder as to why anyone would wish to set the bar so low that even the Pope would fall foul of their standards!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna286706

Thankfully, at least until the UK Government agrees with you, they’re more inclined to allow for people to exercise the right to freedom of expression without being so restricted by setting the bar so low as yours is -

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/police-will-prioritise-freedom-of-speech-under-new-hate-incident-guidance

Thats not me attaching more weight to my opinion than yours, it’s assessing circumstances objectively to determine whether the incident you’re referring to warrants the sanctions you would seek to be imposed, or is it just nothing more than someone saying something stupid, and some people attempting to blow it out of proportion and expecting the authorities to do something about it?

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120835729#Comment_120835729

Like I said I was offering commentary, not declaring eminence.

You're blowing my commentary out of all proportion and making a mountain out of a molehill which is ironic when your accusations of amplification of an issue are taken into account.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120836472#Comment_120836472

I wasn’t making a mountain out of a molehill when in a thread suggesting that I was looking in the wrong direction, that the dangers are coming from the Left, and you come out with a statement which suggests an even more oppressive and extreme approach to punishing people for expressing an opinion than even a Conservative Government in the UK wouldn’t go as far as implementing… it would be bound to raise an eyebrow 🤨

Turns out that Trans Pride have come out to defend the activist at the pride event who claimed that women should be punched in the face for holding gender critical views:

However, organisers said that while it does not condone violence, many speakers at the event “hold a lot of rage” which they “have the right to express” through words.

A London Trans Pride spokesman said: “Sarah and many others in our community hold a lot of rage and anger and they have the right to express that anger through their words.

This is a disgusting response, bordering on sick and depraved.

Imagine if a far-right group had a speaker who advocated violence against women, and the organisers of said event gave the above justification to the media? It wouldn't be tolerated, and rightly so.

The double standards here are utterly appalling.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838817#Comment_120838817

Turns out that Trans Pride have come out to defend the activist at the pride event who claimed that women should be punched in the face for holding gender critical views:

That’s not what they claimed though.

The double standards here are utterly appalling.

There’s no double standards, they are equally celebrated and their behaviour justified by their supporters, and there would equally be people who would claim double standards because of the lack of condemnation.

Ultimately it’s a question of context, and like nullzero said and it’s something I agree with them on - abusing freedom of speech, and I go further, as opposed to just advocating violence, but abusing freedom of speech to fester prejudice and discrimination against any group in society shouldn’t be tolerated, and for the most part it isn’t tolerated, but thinking people can’t see when they’re being manipulated and calling their indifference to your ideas ‘double standards’, when they won’t behave as you want them to? That’s just stupid. People can see your efforts for what they are, which explains why the majority just aren’t interested in your nonsense.

It’s why I don’t care much for ‘free speech’ types, they’re too obvious in that they just want to be able to convince people that they are justified in causing harm to other people in society. It’s why they object to any limitations on their perceived absolute right to do so. Such limitations on their freedom are as much for their benefit as everyone else’s. Otherwise that small number of people in society would be free to engage in this sort of behaviour -

http://www.rebelnews.ie/2023/02/21/far-right-lies-and-womens-rights/

The above is just for the sake of example btw, I have no interest in going down that rabid hole, but in case you might misunderstand the context, their motivations are obvious too -

Rebel is a socialist website dedicated to challenging establishment politics in Ireland and beyond, and to creating a platform for alternative left-wing viewpoints to be aired.

The website is organised by members of the Socialist Workers Network; a revolutionary socialist organisation and component part of the 32 county socialist party People Before Profit.

We are socialist, anti-racist, anti-sexist and anti-capitalist. We aim to include the opinion of a wide range of views of those in social movements and on the left, as part of a wider discussion about how we move beyond the failures of capitalism.

http://www.rebelnews.ie/about-rebel-news/

Murray again raising legitimate questions about the utter lunacy of what was said at that event.

https://twitter.com/DouglasKMurray/status/1678496812892577792

And there hasn't been a serious, concerted response against it either:

https://twitter.com/stuartf100/status/1678007197861658624

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838817#Comment_120838817

They are not condoning violence. There is no double standard.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839552#Comment_120839552

Where’s the serious questions? Why would you even bother posting that here when you know he’s lying, given the information in the article that you yourself posted earlier?

When asked if Mr Khan supported Baker’s comments, a spokesman said: “The mayor is a proud LGBTQI+ ally and has been clear in his support for the trans community. He is also clear that violence is never acceptable.”

The London Trans Pride speakers demonstrated at Wellington Arch in London’s Hyde Park Corner on Jul 8. There were 10 scheduled speakers of which Baker was not one, organisers said. She instead took to the stage during the “open-mic” portion of the event.

However, organisers said that while it does not condone violence, many speakers at the event “hold a lot of rage” which they “have the right to express” through words.

A London Trans Pride spokesman said: “Sarah and many others in our community hold a lot of rage and anger and they have the right to express that anger through their words.

“We do not condone violence, we do not back a call to arms for violence of any kind. We do condone righteous anger and the right to the free speech that was expressed yesterday. We have and will continue to march in peace.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/09/trans-pride-defends-activist-who-told-crowd-to-punch-terfs/

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839621#Comment_120839621

Do you support the speakers assertion that TERF's should be punched in the face?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840031#Comment_120840031

No

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840031#Comment_120840031

What sort of a stupid question is that to ask of anyone?

Why not take it as a given that nobody condones violence instead of having them engage in the sort of performative nonsense you want them to in saying that they don’t approve of violence?

It’d be like me expecting you should have to make a statement condemning violence by people who commit hate crimes -

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63157965.amp

I wouldn’t though, because I don’t expect you to engage unwillingly in that sort of performative nonsense which achieves nothing. If you’re willing to engage in that sort of performative nonsense voluntarily, that’s entirely your own business.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840043#Comment_120840043

The people who attended the Trans Pride event disagree with you, as they clearly do back it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840127#Comment_120840127

You have no way of knowing what they agree or disagree with, or what they do or don’t back, because it’s not clear that they back violence when the attendees haven’t given their opinion on it either way. In the spirit of good faith though, I’d take it that they agree with the sentiment, disagree with the act.

Otherwise they’ll all have to have their bottoms spanked… although they might cheer on hearing that too 🤔