Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

Seems like a clear cut red to me. Don't shoulder lads in the face. Intentional or otherwise.

Bogwoppit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

We’re not dealing with soccer, gaa or any other sport you care to mention.

This is professional rugby, these guys train and play day in, day out to make tackles.

Steward had enough time to turn his hips and shoulders and drop his elbow into the collision. The guy has trained for years to know what to do in contact and he didn’t do it, had he gone for a tackle we wouldn’t be having this conversation but he didn’t do that. His own fault entirely.

Hammer Archer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374749#Comment_120374749

We absolutely win that game even without the red card. We were 4 points ahead at the time of the red card having played woefully up to that point yet still having left 2 additional tries out there. England played as well as they possibly could up until that point yet only had two penalties to show for it. They never looked like getting a try with 15. Apart from the try they scored from a maul, they never really threatened another from open play.

The thing that annoys me most about the red card yesterday is people now feeling they can say we somehow only won because of it. Personally, I feel that we win by a similar scoreline regardless of the red. We had so much extra in the tank throughout compared to England.

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375428#Comment_120375428

Good lord Rugby people really are delusional

He had no forward momentum and had stopped, it was Keenan who ran into Steward

It was a natural reaction

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375460#Comment_120375460

Which match were you watching?

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375460#Comment_120375460

Not delusional we know the laws unlike......

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375482#Comment_120375482

There was no foul play, there was no tackle

Play on

BoardsMember

We've just won a grand slam and we're talking about something that is very polarising. Can we have a separate thread to discuss the red card?

OldRio

No foul play because there wasn't a tackle.?

OK? I'll leave you to it. Life's to short.

Cateym

Fairly disappointing performance. The dropped passes and errors made for hard watching as referenced by JS in his post match interview, they really made it hard for themselves. Despite that, the fact they still won and got the bonus point is impressive. I feel the red card was fair but unfortunately it's all that's being discussed online. Well done to our Grand Slam winning team. Onwards to the World Cup.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375342#Comment_120375342

Nonsense.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374749#Comment_120374749

Did you enjoy the pints?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

"Anybody who thinks that is a red card in a rugby match has never played any level of soccer or GAA."

And there we have the dumbest take of the thread. Well done.

I've played rugby for over 20 years (and counting), how many years of rugby have you played that makes your nonsense more valid than my assessment?

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375288#Comment_120375288

It’s a shoulder directly to the head at force. World rugby have taken a long hard look at the laws. They have also taken a long hard look at the science around brain injury too.

roverjoyce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375529#Comment_120375529

And how do brace for impact when not tackling

The ball was dead

You let the player run into you and you put your hands by your side

Somehow people think this is a red card

There's no talking to some people. This one was always going to bring the armchair contrarians who are mostly interested in an online argument.

I'm going to sit back and enjoy my day in the knowledge that Ireland are deserving Grand Slam champions. 🏆😁🏆

jobrien874ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375498#Comment_120375498

Agree completely, great match though and Well Done to the team :)

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375565#Comment_120375565

Indeed. I've a bit of work to do and then TV at 5 to watch the under 20s go for the grand Slam.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375485#Comment_120375485

So as long as you dont try to tackle people you can shoulder charge them freely and play on? Right.

Its ridiculous to sugges that Steward was simply trying to move out of Keenan's way, having run approximately 10 metres directly towards him in the moments previously.

And if he had move out of the way, for whatever reason, Keenan and Lowe had a straight run to the English goal line. The idea that a professional rugby player didnt know this and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time is comical.

Its a clear red card, but that said Id much rather it hadnt happened. Ireland wouldve had a second try before half time, Keenan would have still be on the pitch for the 2nd half and there would be none of this complaining!

I also think Farrell made no real attempt to wrap when talking gibson park in the air, so that should have been a yellow, but dems the breaks

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

So that hit is legal in soccer and GAA?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375554#Comment_120375554

Your showing your sparkling knowledge of the rules again thinking the ball was dead.

johnnyskeleton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375554#Comment_120375554

Define the ball being dead please. In your mind, does the ball being dead mean the ball is in play?

If youre not tackling but youre running towards an opposing player at speed, what exactly are you doing?

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375554#Comment_120375554

I'll ask you again, how many years of rugby have you played?

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375288#Comment_120375288

Players are routinely tackled at exactly the moment they gain possession, or are in a realistic position to gain possession. To say that players 'brace for impact when a player is running at them without the ball' is not true except in kick chase situations. Coaches might take a dim view of their players not tackling or not placing themselves in a position to tackle, and any future Lions coach will have that image of Steward turning in the back of their mind.

Seadin

I'm delighted in one sense that Ireland didn't destroy England like France did last week. We won the Grand Slam but we may have to lower the expectations with the RWC slightly after yesterdays performance. Yes I want Ireland to do very well in the RWC and it possible win it but no harm for Farrell and the Irish team to have something to work with facing the RWC. They will know after yesterdays game, that performance would not do against France or New Zealand in a RWC and if we get to the QF stage. Some of the handling errors they made in the game were very poor. The lineout at times did not function properly either. They have plenty to work with going forward and hopefully everyone they need playing doesn't get unfortunate injuries coming up to the tournament. Let's hope they create a bit of history for this RWC as well.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375485#Comment_120375485

The Laws state that a tackler must attempt to wrap. Failure to wrap constitutes foul play.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375608#Comment_120375608

You’re asking this poster how long he’s played, while also dismissing the views of ex-pro’s who’ve played for decades.

You can’t have it both ways.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375565#Comment_120375565

Now for the u20s.

ujjjjjjjjj

Maybe a new thread for the endless red card argument.

Think the problem here like many rugby rules is the interpretation of the laws by the officials at that point in time. I can clearly see both sides of this argument from an officials point of view and I suppose why this is gonna go round and round.

When I first saw it my immediate reaction was due to Keenans dip in height this was clear mitigation to avoid a red card. My opinion hasn't really changed although I can see how an official interprets it the way Jaco did. Don't think anything Steward did was malicious or planned and think Wilkinson got it right on the ITV uk commentary, Steward was initially gonna hack the ball and as Keenan fell forward realised an impact was coming.Think he was unlucky.

It's a grey area as it's not an exact science, the mitigation is always open to interpretation.

But hey ho we would have nothing else to talk about. Sure we only won a grand slam :)

Bottom line is I find it hard to be absolute on this one either way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375727#Comment_120375727

Think this sums it up well. I think it was harsh but i get why the ref gave a red under the rules.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375727#Comment_120375727

Very good summary, imo.

I think it’s possible to understand why it was a red and also think Stewart was unlucky.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375727#Comment_120375727

Steward could have tried to grab the ball with his hands. He had time to turn his body and lead with his upper arm/shoulder into Keenans head.

Steward as never legal which removes the various mitigation factors.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375740#Comment_120375740

True. No malicious intent, but some contact never the less.

You wouldn't see Scott Penny making such a silly "tackle".

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375696#Comment_120375696

Oh so it's ok for that poster to call us 'deluded' because we think it's a red card? And base their nonsense on how it is in soccer or GAA?

aloooof, you're a mod here now. Maybe keep up with the conversation before you dive in at the arse end of it.

I'm asking that poster that specific question for a reason, and it's because they came in here with their billy big bollocks comparing rugby to GAA and soccer.

Bleating Lamb

Nursing the Mother and Father of all hangovers today but is worth it.

Watched the game in pub yday and as such you don’t get to hear the analysis properly at both half and full time.

After 60 mins I said to a pal that Sheahan was already MOTM……was excellent in open play when others around him were underperforming.

Thought Bundee was excellent as well,and considering his lack of game time Rob Henderson wasn’t found wanting either.

Well done Ireland!😉🏉☘️💥

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375413#Comment_120375413

@aloooof - This is why I'm asking that question.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375696#Comment_120375696

the poster in question had referenced playing in other sports, Soccer and GAA. That’s where that question stems from. If you are going to say anyone who has played at any level in another sport, it’s a bit of strange argument about an incident in a rugby game, no?

Personally I thought Kearney’s point was ridiculous. He was offering a side profile to avoid him. Then why did he plant and brace?

pickarooney

Steward didn't run 20 metres to tackle a guy. He ran at a loose ball. Keenan became the ball carrier roughly 0.2 seconds before the collision. Had Steward got to the ball first chances are Keenan would have smashed into him and got a red card for head contact.

England were very good in parts and sloppy in others. Credit to them for getting upto pitch despite lacking a cohesive and drilled attack, their defence was shown up last week but as good as it's been all tournament this week.

I worried that if England upped their game and Ireland weren't on top of theirs that we might have struggled but that didn't really transpire. England upped their game and Ireland were not at the top of theirs but we limited their scoring opportunities when they had real momentum, we created and subsequently coughed up plenty of scoring opportunities ourselves but were just clinical enough to put the game out of reach by the final quarter.

Lot's of people discussing the various turning points but for me it was the Jamie George try. England were absolutely spent by the time that went over, they had no energy or lift off the back of that score and walked away breathless and subdued. They'd answered the worst of their critics but the tank was empty and the confidence we'd started to build when we stretched to 24-9 was never reigned in.

Interesting that three of our tries this weekend were scored by our hookers when just last week we spent a considerable amount of time with no hookers on the pitch. Have heard criticisms of the atmosphere for the second time this tournament but again, hearing the exact opposite from anyone I know that was there. Huge ovation for Sexton when he came off which is well deserved in his six nations swansong and a big credit to the English team, not only did they have their best six nations performance yesterday but they showed a very great deal of class at full time.

If I was in charge of officiating I'd have given a yellow to Steward. I can accept the line of logic that resulted in the red but to me it was unfortunate, maybe a bit clumsy but mitigated sufficiently to reduce the sanction. Player safety is the out and out priority so I tend not to contest these calls but I thought Keenan was dipped enough and Steward passive enough that the sanction should have been reduced.

It doesn't tarnish the result for me either way - Ireland were in control in the final 20 and one player wouldn't have made the difference.

Won't go into individual performances as we've just won a tournament and yesterday was the culmination of that effort. The coaching ticket on the other hand absolutely deserve singling out. Am always mindful that Andy Farrell played against Ireland on a very significant day not only for Irish rugby but for the country itself. In 2007 England came to play Ireland in Croke park after much discussion and debate about whether that was acceptable and how it would be received. It was an occasion that I've always been proud of in that Irish supporters demonstrated intense passion and matched it with maturity and a respect direct both inward and outward.

We absolutely annihilated England that day and yet their starting inside centre is now the devoted leader of the Irish rugby team. He's rapidly becoming the Jackie Charlton of Irish rugby and I hope the same enthusiasm surrounds him going into 'France 23. We all had our doubts about Mike Catt but Ireland is now one of the best attacking sides in the World and Paul O'Connell's introduction coincided with this team becoming a force in the way that Irish rugby has never been but Paul O'Connell always was.

Great win, have enjoyed every minute of it.

Sexton > Rog

(sorry)

jt69er

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374270#Comment_120374270

Watch it again, Keenan had the ball, Stewart turned into him. Cheap shot!

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375848#Comment_120375848

If my uncle had breasts

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375848#Comment_120375848

Absolutely, Keenan will definitely be cited tomorrow. Way too many hypothetical head injuries, the authorities have to act.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375871#Comment_120375871

He'd be a happy man?

TRC10

It wasn't a good performance. But we won our 4th Grand Slam in our history, beating the World Cup favourites on the way, as well as the supposed best Scottish team of the pro era in their own backyard (both comfortably). Not to mention hammering Wales in the Millennium. These days don't come around too often and should be cherished and enjoyed.

While we didn't play well, we managed to pull it out of the bag when it mattered most. There was a period in that game when everything was falling apart. But we managed to compose ourselves enough to get things together and deliver a big final quarter and take the game away from England. Yes the red card was harsh, but no team has ever won anything without a bit of luck on the way. There was zero luck involved in the 4 wins prior.

IMO, yesterday Andy Farrell confirmed his status as our greatest ever coach.

Stheno

https://twitter.com/SixNationsRugby/status/1637182031862923267?t=5yMSti3BaSxKAYNaTpMP0g&s=19

I thought this was lovely

Lost Ormond

I worked at the game. not my usual place but atmosphere was up there one of the best and i thought we werent busy...

Havent seen game in full yet but on the red. it was a definite red. no mitigation no contest.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375086#Comment_120375086

Yeah, watching rugby on virgin is like an exercise in sensory deprivation. The picture is blurry, and the sound muted.

All the big moments (bairds turnover, the 1st half defense etc) the crowd were involved. I've been to lansdowne on enough quiet to days to know yesterday wasn't one.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375848#Comment_120375848

While I agree that steward was unlucky, his issue was that he didn't even try to grasp the ball (in fact he turned toward the touchline when ball was the otherway).

If he had been trying to gather the ball, the liklihood of it being called a "rugby incident" goes up significantly.

standardg60

Red was unlucky for me, Steward went into self preservation mode just as Keenan was at his most defenceless.

Think there was enough mitigation in the unfortunate timing to reduce to a yellow.

Just hope it doesn't affect Keenan's confidence going forward.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375542#Comment_120375542

They haven't taken a long hard look at the laws though. Hence the reason new laws are being trialled in Super 12 rugby around this issue and the severity of the punishment. Also, if they'd take a long hard look around the science around brain injury they would punish players who lead into contact with their head too.