Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384112#Comment_120384112

Had a quick look at this:

La Rochelle have conceded 6 yellow cards and 1 red in 20 rounds this season. Their opponents have conceded 16 yellow cards and 1 red.

Seems like ROG is doing exactly what some are calling for.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384472#Comment_120384472

Are you not including the 2 red cards he picked up as a coach this season, no?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385031#Comment_120385031

Noooope.

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382096#Comment_120382096

Sorry for quoting myself, and sorry for continuing to talk about the red card, but just came across this photo. Look at where he is ffs. There is quite obviously zero chance he's getting to the ball before Keenan, he has all that time and space to make a decision, not this bullshit 0.3s or 0.6s.

FrancieBrady

Marray Kinsella tweeting that Steward's card has been rescinded. Nothing official yet.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1638465367591858180

Interested Observer

Mad.

prawnsambo

Looking forward to reading the report.

part time punk

Seen it mentioned a couple of times about choke tackles being dangerous. Just wondering if anyone can explain that a bit more to me. Usually static enough, rarely see head contact etc Thought it would be one of the safer scenarios. Am I missing something?

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386550#Comment_120386550

It's not the tackle itself that is dangerous , it's the body positions required to make the tackle that introduce greater risk.

To be in a position to execute a choke tackle means that the defender has to be in an upright position and they are also seeking to keep the attacker upright as well.

Because everybody is upright , the chances of head contact are increased over a scenario where the defender is looking to go lower to bring the attacker to ground.

sydthebeat

Yeah the risk of head contact is increased, but the risk of head contact trauma is reduced as a choke tackle almost invariably are soak tackles when the impact is not from the tackler but the ball carrier.

It's the dominant hit tackle that causes the worst head contact (aki v England and Samoa for example). Those aren't choke tackles.

TheRona

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1638476179421249536

I guess this is what most neutrals would agree with. England must be wondering what they could have achieved if they had their full 15 players on for an extra half hour.

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385406#Comment_120385406

This is the picture you should be looking at. When Keenan gets the ball, there's only a quarter of a second until impact. At this point Steward is already trying to pull out. In your picture there's a loose ball from a knock-on. Who knows which way it might bounce.

OldRio

Good risk and/or reward policy for teams. Take an opposition player out of the game and you only get 10 minutes with having to play with 14.

Just remember turn sideways, elbow up and look surprised.

prawnsambo

Full decision here. Or at least this is what's been released so far. Probably a synopsis. Pretty much seems to echo what Shaggy said at the time. Basically reckless play with the mitigating factor of Keenan being almost bent double at the point of impact.

squidgainz

Hahahaha all your bolix posturing on here , oh I've played rugby 20 years and your as per the rules blah blah blah , world rugby didn't think it was a red. I guess me like a lot of people and nearly everyone not on Boards was correct with it being a harsh red.

irelandrover

I can't understand that decision. If they had said there was no foul play and hence the red rescinded i could understand it at least, even if i don't agree.

But there was no late change from Keenan. Stewart had a clear line of sight, could see Keenan duck to pick up the ball, and have time to turn so how can it be a late change. This seems to be a nothing decision from them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386711#Comment_120386711

I think it's clear before Keenan is physically touching the ball, that he will regather it. A professional fullback like Stewart should be able to anticipate that. The screenshot should be somewhere between the two moments.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386711#Comment_120386711

The first photo is far more valid, people aren't wrapping their heads around where the sport is going at all IMO. Steward needs to make the decision far earlier and any defender sprinting full tilt at the line needs to realise they've brought themselves into a risk reward scenario. By sprinting to the line the defender reduces their decision making time and increases their likelihood of foul play.

The Atonio yellow/non-red is another example, he sprints out of the line and doesn't give himself time to get his body in position to make a legal tackle. If you're gonna sprint like that, you need to be Ringrose or Keenan-esque with your technique.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386713#Comment_120386713

why bother risking a yellow card when all you have to do is run head first into their elbow and get them sent off.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387129#Comment_120387129

You tend to get yourself either knocked out or fail a HIA. The repercussions for such actions are not very beneficial to one's health.

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387039#Comment_120387039

so defenders should only walk towards the attackers? Brilliant plan.

In that first photo, Steward is expecting the ball to come out normally to Keenan, who is going to catch it and run at hm, so he is attacking the ball carrier who he expects to be coming at him in a normal position.

That doesn't happen though, as the ball squirts forward so Steward then has to decide if he can gather it himself or kick it, neither of which he can do, he is then confronted with Keenan coming at him, obviously not in control as he is bent double and almost stumbling after stooping to gather the ball. His reaction is then instinctive and he shields himself from the inevitable impact.

My biggest issue with the whole thing, is that Peyper was clearly looking to send the player off, as he did not entertain any mitigations, despite there being loads. In this scenario, world rugby needs to give a clear mandate, does Freddie Steward need to be red carded? is it an obvious dangerous act, or is there mitigation. When is isn;t clear cut, does the ref err on the side of the player, or on giving the card.

Me being cynical, would say that this is either Peyper wanted be the big man and show who is in charge by over referring (an increasingly common complaint with rugby) or him simply being a homer and reacting tot eh reaction of the crowd.

This was pretty much a nothing match, as I don't think it affected the outcome of the game, but imagine if this happened in a world cup final and it was Sexton on the receiving end?

Brewster

Correct decision. Ireland got a break on Saturday, I fully expect we would have won the game regardless, but no doubt decision benefited us.

Rugby is a dangerous game at times, and this was nothing more than a rugby incident, of a defending player bracing himself for impact.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387294#Comment_120387294

I didn't hear it said myself, but Peyper is reported to have said "in the current climate..." before giving the red card.

On the one hand, you could look at that as awareness of what an important issue it is, but at the same time concerned that the politics of the situation is his first thought rather than an objective view of the incident. I assume the 'climate' is the one surrounding Wayne Barnes and Uni Atonio.

ButtersSuki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379111#Comment_120379111

Seems the Disciplinary Committe agreeing with my thinking. I'll have to apply for my Referee's Licence I think......🤣

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/03/22/englands-freddie-steward-cleared-after-red-card-overturned-from-ireland-game/

FrattonFred

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387380#Comment_120387380

I've just watched it again and he did indeed say that.

So it appears Peyper was covering his own arse based on poor instruction from World Rugby. Safer for him to send someone off than give them a yellow and face any flack. Does this mean Referees will be looking at a player and the deciding point between red and yellow cards is how much stick the ref leave himself open to? If that is the case, they will be throwing around reds like confetti

Rangy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387000#Comment_120387000

No he can’t anticipate where the ball was going because it was released forward at the last minute by Hansen. Thus changing his trajectory of where he expected contact to be made on the gainline with the player. And remember fullbacks have to break their balls to make up ground to stop the attacker on or before the gainline they are literally going full pelt to get to the attacker on time before he gets into space.

He closed down the space like a hard working defender and the ball was spilled forward last minute thus changing the point of expected contact. When you’re moving at that speed it’s very hard to correct your trajectory. Introducing a duty of care will lead to stand offish games where the more negative side absorb the harder working side into critical errors like this.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388142#Comment_120388142

We're talking about two different moments. I'm specifically referring to the previous screenshot of how close Stewart was when Keenan gathers.

After the ball spills, it bounces and then it's clear that Keenan is going to gather after this bounce, before Keenan actually has possession. Stewart had more time than that screenshot implies. Enough time to turn his shoulder as the Jaco Peyper says.

Rangy

There was a moment of confusion. The ball had spilled forward therefore there is no chance the attacking team are going to be allowed play on. Steward therefore went for it to gather. Keenan should have been the one to retract because it was knocked on and had no rights to the ball.

Perhaps the ref blew his whistle. There are numerous moments which could have led to confusion and whoever has rights to the ball after a knock on can lead to that player continuing on to gather it. Perhaps the duty of care shifts from the defensive player who has now in an instant become the attacking player because the ball was knocked on and Keenan becomes the defender in that moment.

All I know is that for a contestable ball when you’re going full tilt it’s hard to change your trajectory. But despite that Steward still can’t stop with the velocity he’s going at. It’s harder for a larger man to start and stop when running.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388589#Comment_120388589

Perhaps the duty of care shifts from the defensive player who has now in an instant become the attacking player because the ball was knocked on and Keenan becomes the defender in that moment.

Probably the actual worst take on this so far.

The disciplinary committee still found that Steward committed an act of foul play that warranted a red card, they just accepted there was sufficient mitigation to downgrade it. Claiming Keenan is responsible here is nonsensical.

We've just won a Grand Slam and yet there have probably been 600 posts on this red card. It's actually unbelievable.

Rangy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388625#Comment_120388625

I don’t believe it was foul play. He contested for the ball and a rugby incident happened. Duty of care shifts to Keenan to remove himself once ball is knocked on and he becomes the defender.

The committee didn’t go as far as to undermine an official completely but a black white viewing of player hits another players head with shoulder therefore he is at fault , is wrong