I don't believe in a meddling God

Theduke1960

I see no real evidence that God answers prayers or plans peoples lives

You simply cant hide behind its a mystery

There is scientific evidence that there is a God but no real evidence he is a micro manager

victor8600

What does your priest say?

Hoboo

Scientific evidence there is a god?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288581/i-dont-believe-in-a-meddling-god

As someone who wants to believe but is struggling with doubts, I'd love to hear about this scientific evidence.

victor8600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367227#Comment_120367227

Scientists say that the backwards time travel may theoretically be possible. If it is indeed possible, just very difficult, then we can say that it has almost certainly already happened, as any technical difficulties can be overcome some time in the future. A person from the distant enough future may appear as a God to a primitive civilization.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288581/i-dont-believe-in-a-meddling-god

You sound like you're describing Deism. A non-interventionist god who doesn't get involved in people's lives or helping them find their car keys or whatever else. A god who made the universe and left it alone.

magicbastarder

Are you nick cave?

basillarkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288581/i-dont-believe-in-a-meddling-god

what is this scientific evidence you speak of and of which god?

Theduke1960

Google scientific evidence for God.

I ain't going there.

I'm just starting from the point that there is a strong evidence for a God in creation but not a micro managing god

Theduke1960

Which **** God? Give me peace

Theduke1960

The odds of life on earth are astronomical. I ain't going to state the obvious there.

You could say completely accidental but you have a weaker case

My main point is that while existentnce of God is debatable - I do not feel there is any real evidence of an interventionist God

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288581/i-dont-believe-in-a-meddling-god

Move on then or are you looking for enlightenment?

Are you on your road to Damascus?

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367979#Comment_120367979

I'm just starting from the point that there is a strong evidence for a God in creation but not a micro managing god

Can I start with, there's no strong evidence for a God? You can Google it..

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367998#Comment_120367998

"The odds of life on earth are astronomical"

Yes indeed, in an infinite universe the odds are low, but not zero

Lewis_Benson

An unforeseen future nestled somewhere in time.

Unsuspecting victims no warnings, no signs.

Judgment day the second coming arrives.

Before you see the light you must die.

Forgotten children, conform a new faith,

Avidity and lust controlled by hate.

[The] Never ending search for your shattered sanity,

Souls of Damnation in their own reality.

Chaos rampant,

An age of distrust.

Confrontations.

Impulsive habitat.

Bastard sons beget your **** daughters,

Promiscuous mothers with your incestuous fathers.

Engreat souls condemned for all eternity,

Sustained by immoral observance a domineering deity.

Chaos rampant,

An age of distrust.

Confrontations.

Impulsive sabbath.

On and on, south of heaven

The root of all evil is the heart of a black soul.

A force that has lived all eternity.

A never ending search for a truth never told.

The loss of all hope and your dignity.

Chaos rampant,

An age of distrust.

Confrontations.

Impulsive habitat.

On and on, south of heaven

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368342#Comment_120368342

An infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters, or maybe just because Earth was the Goldilocks planet in our solar system.

There could be many different planets evolving towards or are at a different stage of life as we speak but unless any will develop the ability to traverse time which is doubtful we will always be alone.

Theduke1960

Not much of a debate and the usual small men but big on the Internet types.

I suppose my op was poorly written.

I'm starting from the point of view that there is a God. Based on the evidence I have read. You could argue the reverse of course but that's a separate thread really.

I just think peoples lives are too random to conform to a pattern designed by God.

People suffer in a way that makes no sense unless it was random

And bad people prosper.

Again I'm not here to argue about God's existence. You might say that the above is evidence of non existence but I'm not arguing that.

I think God started creation. That he will judge us but he doesn't plan everything.

He doesn't have a plan for me but I will be judged.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370217#Comment_120370217

Does your god care if you believe in it? Will that be on the 'good' side of the ledger it judges you?

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368017#Comment_120368017

You can but you could **** off and start your own thread

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370235#Comment_120370235

It's not my God. Just my belief. But I think if there is a judgement it's on your life not belief because lots of good people lived in the pre-Christian era and lots of good people including perhaps yourself who don't believe.

Plus I honestly don't think God needs you to believe in him as such just lead a good life

I think the Catholic Church no longer believes that non believers are condemned to die

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370465#Comment_120370465

Mod warning: Foul language not permitted in this forum, please read the charter before posting here again.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370217#Comment_120370217

Curious thought process.

He doesn't care, but he does?

I actually like the non micromanagement sentiment.

But! If he don't got my back...

growleaves

OP I don't know if this will interest you but something that's helped me a lot is discovering Mormon theology, which says that God has limited power and is a created being among beings.

In fact the idea of God being omnipotent doesn't appear in the Bible and was borrowed from classical metaphysics (Plato, Aristotle etc.)

This book is a good starting point:

The God Who Weeps: How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life by Terryl Givens

Its my opinion that a lot of the incoherencies of mainstream Christian theology are a result of the meshing together of classical philosophy and Christian scripture. This matters more now than ever since in Western countries the mass of people are educated and they demand real answers to questions like e.g. theodicy.

Theduke1960

Another argument that goes on the side of a non meddling God is the fact that we have so many different faiths claim to be the ultimate voice.

If God was micro managing it would seem confusing why he would allow that.

That's why I think God is more likely to be a creative force than a managing director

growleaves

I tend to agree there is strong evidence for god/s. It needn't be material (i.e. scientific) evidence.

Let me paraphrase something I saw on a blog:

"I wonder what compels people to convince themselves they are living in a world made up of completely random events that somehow form the level of coherence that we are at now.

Why is it difficult to imagine avenues of perception and communication and being that are non-material, and that the non-material exists?"

Examining the material world does not/cannot in and of itself prove that nothing apart from the material world exists. Don't confuse science with metaphysics.

What kind of evidence a person considers "admissible" will be pre-decided by their metaphysical assumptions. Often a person will rule out or rule in certain kinds of evidence a priori.

Deja Boo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370520#Comment_120370520

I (personally) wouldn''t take anything from that religion as fact or even "sense" ...but that is another argument all together.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370521#Comment_120370521

Or far more likely he doesn't exist.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370549#Comment_120370549

That's fine. I used to be very down on it myself and regarded it as a fraud offshoot of Christianity - but then I changed my mind.

If someone says the only thing stopping them from becoming a Christian are these theological expanations that don't go anywhere (if God is omnipotent why does(n't) he do x?) then its at least interesting that there is a whole other theology which gives a different set of answers to these questions.

Creativity in Christian thought possibly can seem blasphemous but I don't see it like that.

I think the medieval church took a wrong turn by equating Christian teaching with things like Plato's Timaeus (most well-known Greek philosophical work during that time).

Jesus Christ never seems to have spoken or thought like a Stoic or a Thomist or anybody like that. He was always tearing down that mechanistic way of thinking, contradicting and out-arguing rigid scholars of Moses' laws, discouraging literalism, putting the spirit of the law ahead of the letter of the law etc.

breezy1985

..

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370520#Comment_120370520

Interesting book. I must read it. I am generally dismissive of the Mormon faith because of its origin story-it's theory on native Americans etc but that does not mean all its ideas are wrong.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370595#Comment_120370595

Could you please explain the link with plato?

Theduke1960

Breezy you could just go off and start your own thread on non belief. Would you like help on that rather than hijacking this thread?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370719#Comment_120370719

This I'm curious in.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370732#Comment_120370732

Mod: Carded for back seat moderation, you've already been told to read the charter before posting here again which you clearly haven't done. Please be respectful of other posters. Next one is a ban.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370768#Comment_120370768

You gave me a warning with a text I didn't write. I did curse but not the one that you sent me. But apologies either way

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370483#Comment_120370483

Is the god you're proposing a slimmed down. Deistic version of the Christian god?

Also, on what criteria will the god judge you? If the god is non-interventionist, then how are you supposed to know its standards of good and bad behaviour?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370719#Comment_120370719

In Plato's dialogues his Socrates (a mouthpiece for Plato's opinions) gives long disquisitions on virtue, and in 'Timaeus' talks about a kind of proto-salvation as the culmination of a virtuous life.

These works and other Greek philosophical works, such as Aristotle's De Anima and Nichomachean Ethics, were translated into European languages and declared to be compatible with Christianity by early Christian scholars. (Aquinias draws on Aristotle quite heavily for his scholastic philosophy.)

But I personally question this.

It seems that many concepts were smuggled into 'Christianity' that don't obviously come from the Gospels and don't seem to fit.

Here is a famous quote from Epicurus, describing the theodicy problem, that atheists usually like a lot:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Now if you check you will see that Epicurus lived from 341–270 BC! Greeks didn't paticularly know or care much about Judaism at that time. He was arguing against existing Greek/Roman conceptions of the Gods.

These Greek/Roman metaphysical ideas were fused with Christian beliefs early on, either because they were already so familiar or to give a new religion a kind of philosophical respectability or because they appealed to those early scholars.

It happened so long ago that it seems impossible to pick them apart.

The fact that a lot of Christian theology seems to 'not fit together properly' and is just incoherent or leaves more questions than answers is cited as a reason people become atheists. So its worth digging down and going back and questioning everything right from the beginning imo.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371023#Comment_120371023

Interesting. Thank you

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367998#Comment_120367998

Astronomical? Not really, given the vast size of the (observable) universe and the large number of "goldilocks zone" Earth-like planets which have recently been observed, it's conceited to say the least to assume that this whole universe was created just for us, or that we may be the only planet with intelligent life.

It appears reasonable to assume that life will arise anywhere where suitable conditions exist (look at extremophiles) and that given sufficient time under suitable conditions, increasingly complex and ultimately intelligent lifeforms will evolve.

The question isn't so much "are they out there" but "will we, or they, survive long enough to be able to communicate across many light-years before we, or they, destroy ourselves".

We can deduce that this universe is, under certain local conditions, conducive to the existence of intelligent life by the very fact that we exist.

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120371289#Comment_120371289

This is not dealing with my question. My question starts from a belief in God. But perhaps I should not have used the word astronomical.

The whole evidence for God is separate from what I'm arguing for.

I do see the connection but I'm not interested in arguing it here at this moment.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367339#Comment_120367339

The backwards time thingy relates to quantum particles, not deities who can interve to create whole universes

The direction of time relates to entropy. The whole universe is probabilistic

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370217#Comment_120370217

What difference would it make to anyone whether or not that type of God exists?

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120370465#Comment_120370465

Well, I wouldn't be starting thread built on some fairytales man made beings. Seems like you did it. And I just happened to reply to one of your posts...

Theduke1960

I'm not debating with atheists. Blocking and moving on

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372101#Comment_120372101

Good point. I'm not ruling out a judgement.

I just don't think he or she or whatever answers prayers or maps out our lives.

But I have to explore exactly what this means

I'm heavily influenced by the book why bad things happen to Good people.

I hate the title but love the Theology.

I must read it again

xhomelezz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372259#Comment_120372259

Grandiose answer for sure.

Theduke1960

Im not sure if God's power is limited or he just doesn't intervene. Chooses not to.

He has given us everything we need to look after ourselves and others. What happens after that is random.

If God planned everything what does that make us exactly?

El_Duderino 09

If your god is non-interventionist, then how do you know anything about it? Starting from the assumption that the god exists, how did you come to the conclusion that it will judge you and how can you guess the criteria it will judge you against?

How did you come to the conclusion that it wants to judge you or cares about your behaviour?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372481#Comment_120372481

No such thing as random. Perhaps you meant chaotic?

Theduke1960

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372486#Comment_120372486

True chaotic would be a better word

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120372641#Comment_120372641

Chaos is an interesting idea.