New bridge across river Liffey planned by Dublin Port

magicbastarder

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/03/21/dublin-port-plans-new-liffey-bridge-to-link-north-and-south-port/

i wonder how much the council have been involved in this - how will they expect to funnel traffic to and from the bridge, especially on the south side, where there has been much talk about strand road and traffic?

retalivity

So they are moving the ferry port to the southside, where the traffic off the boats will be dumped right into Sandymount, or a new road/bridge that presumably links in with the Dublin Port Tunnel? That'll never fly.

Wonder have they costed flood defences into this 2040 plan

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382137#Comment_120382137

it's an expansion of the container port which is already on the Southside. Implication is that the access will be via the new bridge and the tunnel. Most of the traffic for the existing container port uses the Eastlink and the tunnel.

EDIT - I missed the bit about a new RO-RO terminal on the southern side, but the new bridge will effectively contain that traffic within the port until it hits the tunnel. If anything it will be an improvement for the local communities as they'll see a reduction in trucks using the Eastlink.

At the moment there are 2 ports and trucks going between them are using the Eastlink and the public roads around there. This new bridge will effectively connect the 2 parts of the port together internally.

magicbastarder

i've not seen detailed plans - would there be an option then for them to ban HGVs from the tom clarke bridge? i.e. instead of building a second bridge which also caters for cyclists, motorists and heavy traffic - build a new bridge and segregate the traffic types?

veryangryman

Council will lose a few quid on the Eastlink toll won't they?

Playing worlds smallest voilin

josip

Will all traffic in either direction have unfettered access to the new bridge?

Or will the access road design discourage non-port traffic from clogging up their bridge?

brianc89

Their plans are not very detailed at the moment. The new bridge is not wide enough for segregated Luas and road traffic lanes. Does that mean a Luas extension to Ringsend will share the bridge with port traffic?

rameire

Here is the release of the same Bridge 1.5 years ago.

https://www.thejournal.ie/new-bridge-for-the-capital-5605041-Nov2021/

rameire

More Detail on the 3FM project.

https://www.dublinport.ie/dublin-port-launches-3fm-project-poolbeg-peninsula/

magicbastarder

oh - it's actually right beside the tom clarke bridge?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382379#Comment_120382379

3.3m is not wide enough for "future LUAS", right? TII's own documents say 6.6m:

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382515#Comment_120382515

It looks like it's provision for a single track section.

This bridge is also proposed to be a lifting bridge, so will be interesting to see how the overhead wires of the Luas would be accomodated.

kravmaga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058289074/new-bridge-across-river-liffey-planned-by-dublin-port

I cant see this working out as a plan in 2016 to spend €50 million to by pass the Merrion Gates Dart rail line level crossing never got off the ground.

Too many objections from NIMBYS in Sandymount, Dublin 4. Meanwhile gates are still being hit by trucks, cars etc on a weekly basis.

I cant see how the Sandymount residents will allow this planned new link bridge to go ahead.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/first-look-at-50m-plan-for-merrion-gates-bottleneck-35164878.html

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384047#Comment_120384047

The proposed bridge is in Ringsend, a long way from the Merrion Gates.

All the development being proposed is on Dublin port land, on the other side of the road to the Ringsend residents who already have the East Link in between them and the proposal.

kravmaga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384074#Comment_120384074

I know where it is going, I m just saying take a look at the SAMRA part of this RTE report, they are objecting already, read it.

https://www.innovision.ie/dublinport3fm

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0321/1364338-dublin-port-opens-consultation-on-port-masterplan/

kravmaga

Here it is quoted from the rte report,

"However, some local residents in the area near Dublin Port have complained about what they claim are proposals to hijack land on the Poolbeg Peninsula for the construction of a boiler station and the largest container storage facility in Ireland."

"The Sandymount and Merrion Residents' Association (SAMRA) said the proposal to use 20 acres of land next to an accredited UNESCO Marine Biosphere and an EU Conservation Area noted for its rare and internationally important habitats and species of wildlife, to build a container storage facility and boiler station is wrong."

"'This creeping type of port development is not how this unique finite city central resource should be used. It may suit the businesses operating in the port but it is regressive for the needs of the community," said David Turner Chairman of SAMRA.'

"'3FM needs to return to the drawing board'."

josip

local residents in the area near...

Hmnn, last time I checked, Sandymount and Merrion wasn't exactly 'near'.

Hopefully their objections will be given the short shrift they deserve and they can refocus on matters more local to them.

Citizen Six

Sounds like they just don't want any enlargement of the port near their area.

jlang

The computer generated view across the beach from Sandymount shows no impact that I can see, but who would want to lose their view of an old power station, one of the largest sewage works in Europe and an incinerator. That vista might be ruined if the three high stacks of containers placed in front of them do get stacked higher in time.

Pete_Cavan

From some of the locals reactions, you'd think there hasn't been a port there for the past few hundred years.

I have been saying this for years but I don't think the Luas extension across the river to Poolbeg will ever happen. I think DPC are of the same mind and are moving forward while paying lip service to the Luas idea. DCC also were planning to build another bridge across the Liffey on the western side of the Eastlink for pedestrians and cyclists.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389011#Comment_120389011

for reference, this is the current view from Sandymount beach which is a world heritage site/ unspoilt vista or something.

If I amnt mistaken, the most of the development will happen behind those trees on the left, if not more to the left again towards Ringsend/ Eastlink Bridge - so their magical view should remain fairly much the same.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495242#Comment_120495242

It can be whatever the good people of Sandymount want it to be :)

loyatemu

it's not a world heritage site. The bay is a protected area but none of this planned development is in the bay itself and as pointed out above, the view across the bay already has a filthy 1960s power-plant in it & most Dubliners would lynch you if you tried to demolish it.

On a related note, I was in London recently and visited the Tower of London. I was amused that you can see the Shard (tallest skyscraper in Western Europe) from pretty much every part of the Tower, along with a load of other skyscrapers. It doesn't detract at all from the experience of visiting it. Meanwhile in Dublin you can't build a 10 storey building because it might be visible from one of our (somewhat overrated) Georgian streets.

magicbastarder

the bay is a UNESCO biosphere, IIRC.

i doubt the windfarm would be within the confines of the bay - if you're referring to the mooted Dublin Array, it's 10km offshore and not within the bay itself.

marno21

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1649316774234697729?s=21

…..

Bray Head

What kind of cargo does Ryan envisage arriving at or leaving Dublin Port by rail?!

It makes zero economic sense to lift containers onto a train, haul them 100km, and then left them onto trucks to take them to their final destination.

I could understand if there was some kind of relevant commodity (like coal or iron ore or wheat) but the vast majority of cargo coming and going from Ireland is finished goods.

loyatemu

I'm open to correction but I think (other than Tara Mines) containers are the only rail-freight flow left in Ireland? It's a consultation and Ryan's general point is that the plan make no allowance for Ireland's climate targets and is entirely based on road freight.

A huge amount of the freight that comes into Dublin is destined for the Dublin region (which is one of the reasons why proposals to move the port to Rosslare or wherever are dubious) but there is probably some potential for moving some of the material destined for regional locations onto rail.

Bray Head

@loyatemu

I don't doubt there is some potential, the question is how much and at what cost (and environmental benefit).

My understanding was that rail freight makes sense when more of the following are true: a) distances are long; b) cargo is homogeneous; c) cargo doesn't have a sell by date. None of these applies very much in Ireland.

If anyone has done a study on this in the Irish context I would be keen to read it.

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502867#Comment_120502867

All of what you say about rail freight is technically true, but on the other hand Irish Rail is planning to build a new rail freight hub in Castlebar, a small town of 12,000 people with just a handful of industrial locations nearby. If you look at it that way, there must be significant scope to expand rail freight at Dublin Port.

To continue the Mayo example, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ballina, a small town, has more container rail freight traffic than Dublin Port. So again, that suggests significant potential for expansion at Dublin Port.

magicbastarder

Do guinness still ship by rail?

bk

You literally couldn’t get a country less suited to rail freight than Ireland.

• small island, short distances
• no heavy industry, almost all “just in time” light goods
• Very little mining or other heavy loads
• Every city is a port
• Excellent motorway network , every other city is 3 hours or less from Dublin

Honestly rail freight really doesn’t make any sense for Ireland.

What makes it even less sense from Dublin Port, the lines around Connolly are already the most congested in the country and will only get worse with Dart+. There is simply little or no space to get rail freight into and out of the port via these lines without drastically impacting passenger services.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120503071#Comment_120503071

No, it stopped a good while ago. Last time I remember it, was back in the late 90s.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502821#Comment_120502821

Bulk liquids also travel with the containers. And there’s a timber train from the west as well.

Podge_irl

Rail freight is only ever going to make sense if you are not having to tranship back onto road transport for any significant distance at the end. Ultimately its hard to see many scenarios in Ireland that rail freight makes sense unless its somehow significantly cheaper.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502867#Comment_120502867

b) and c) are not that relevant in Ireland. c) is super relevant in places like the States where trains get delayed (or just plain go missing) with great frequency. b) is not that relevant once you can ship at least a container sized load - it doesn't need to be more than that.

But a) is a big one. Going by rail would be slower anyway, never mind additional transhipping times at either end of the rail line.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505362#Comment_120505362

Would it make sense in terms of helping to reach our emissions targets though? Not just from a monetary perspective.

magicbastarder

how much is shipped via containers and how much via 'standard' artics?

i.e. is it a case that (say) a container arrives in dublin, goods are transferred to a truck (be it in the same container, or actually transferred to a truck) and then driven to cork or galway, say?

i would assume that with the likes of the massive distribution hubs the likes of tesco operate, all their produce is shipped to those first before being despatched to the actual stores?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507097#Comment_120507097

The question you have to ask then is, how much would the government need to subsidise it to make it economically attractive for companies to use it. And then that leads to the question, we’ll how much environmental benefit do you get for that given amount of money and could you potentially get more benefit from the same amount of money subsidising insulation in homes or more EV’s or EV trucks or more wind farms, etc.

Honestly I don’t have the answer to that question, I’d love to see a study done into it. A lot of people like to throw around ideas saying think of the environment, without doing any practical cost benefit analysis to see if it actually holds up.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507097#Comment_120507097

A bit? It depends on how much travel needs to be done to and from the rail centres. As bk raises, it may not be the best investment to achieve emissions targets.

To be honest, emissions-wise it would make more sense to have container vessels going to various ports around Ireland. Given the size of the country, the lack of electrification of the rails and the motorway network it would probably make more sense to focus on decarbonising road transport (so biofuels and whatnot)

magicbastarder

biofuels are a con though really, aren't they? though that's a topic for another thread...

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507145#Comment_120507145

I'm sure the data is available to various government departments to answer these questions. There really needs to be an assessment of the data done to assess the viability of rail freight.

I can't see for sure but I would assume most containers go to a central distribution point to be opened and contents removed. We are seeing more and more goods going from a central depot direct to the customer. This is obviously the case for online retailers but also some types of shops no longer hold stock and purchased items are delivered to the customer, e.g. large electrical goods. Argos is gone here now and scaled back in UK, that's because holding stock at many locations doesn't work v large centralised storage and distrubute from there. For bulk delivery of goods to the central distribution point, it needs to be located on the rail network but also with good access to the road network for onward delivery of individual orders.

If you take all of the containers which arrive in Dublin on a particular day, then look at those which are going outside Dublin as the sealed container, i.e. a supposedly suitable for rail transport. How many trains would have to carry them? I mean, you could run a train to Cork and drop off containers along the way (ignoring for now the operatioal difficulties this would cause, the handling facilities required, etc.) but is there enough containers to justify running that train? Same goes for trains to Limerick, Galway, Mayo, etc. It's all well and good saying there are lots of containers but not much good if they have to be split across multiple trains such that all struggle to cover the cost of running the train.

You'd likely have to have the train(s) available to run each day even if they are not full to break even point, customers are not going to switch to rail if the operator is doing things to suit themselves at the expense of the customer. Customers will expect their containers delivered when they requested them, they won't accept their container arriving a day later because there wasn't enough other containers that day to justify running the train.

A few years back I pulled the freight data off the CSO site and graphed it. You can view it in the linked post below.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/113363448#Comment_113363448

Suffice to say that even the earlier 1% estimate for the share of freight on rail is extremely optimistic

loyatemu

Ireland aint going to solve the global climate crisis, WHATEVER we do.

that's true, but we're signed up to global agreements which are codified into Irish law. The port company can't just ignore them (and in their response to Ryan they claim that they have taken them into account).

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514284#Comment_120514284

And when a majority of people start noticing a reduction in their quality of life, they will elect people who will uncodify them (see US & UK in 2016 etc).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512430#Comment_120512430

No. Though as with all things, there are good and bad ways of doing it. There isn't any better way of decarbonising heavy goods transport (or flying for that matter) at the moment.

Ireland is never going to be a good candidate for more rail freight - the time to drive to basically anywhere from Dublin is just too short.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514354#Comment_120514354

Or when they are disingenuously led to believe that there's been a reduction in their quality life, but that's probably one for the politics thread.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514284#Comment_120514284

The first EV tractor truck just arrived in Ireland this week. There is a picture of it up on Irish Commercials Instagram, a Volvo FH Electric.

An Post has run a very successful trial of using HVO for their trucks between Galway and Dublin which say a 90% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

So we don't necessarily need rail freight to reach those global agreements.

Also there is the problem that if we start pushing a large amount of rail freight through Dublin's already overcrowded rail network, you could destroy the DART schedule. DART every 10 minutes, not a hope with many rail freight movements on the network.

Folks want to improve the journey times on the Cork and Belfast line. Cork to Dublin in 2 hours, maybe even 90 minutes at some stage. Well you can forget about that when your train is stuck behind a freight train.

There is a really danger that we make passenger services much worse, which will only lead to people going back to their cars, which obviously negates any emission savings.

Generally speaking large amounts of freight traffic, isn't really compatible with high frequency passenger services. It is why the US has great rail freight, but terrible passenger services.

jlang

Tangent to the freight/container discussion, but I suppose a reason to maintain a dormant rail connection to the port is to allow for delivery of railcars direct onto the rail network.

When Luas (and future Metro) vehicles arrive into Dublin are they typically moved by road to the relevant depot or just to the nearest suitable point of the network and towed/run the rest of the way on the tracks? I guess the articulated segments are shipped by road and assembled together at the depot.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514773#Comment_120514773

Well, Luas and Metrolink rail vehicles cannot run on IR rails because the gauge is different. They will have to go by truck.

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514773#Comment_120514773

It ain't dormant, its used 3 times a day by actual freight trains that seem to get ignored on this thread..

andrewfaulk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512745#Comment_120512745

While it makes for poor reading, you have also missed a few key points..

1) the CSO figures includes some business that will never be transport by rail again, like Milk from farm to dairy, cattle from farm to Mart etc..

2) Your figures are in tonnes, but rail tends to do longer journeys than road(both in Ireland and Internationally), laden tonne/kms would be a more accurate measure

3) the rail figure does NOT include Bord na Mona and the other bog railways, which until 4-5 years ago move large tonnages by rail every year from bogs to Power Plants, briquette factories and tipplers.