Barbie Kardashian is in a women's prison. Taoiseach's response to questions on this are here..

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403879#Comment_120403879

I do not think you have read what I said very carefully. And yes, you are mistaken about the false equivalency.

Try reading it through calmly and carefully.

Can I imagine negative consequences to letting trans people use bathrooms? Sure!

But I can imagine negative consequences to lots of things. That is not really what should determine what rules we make up for such things.

I can, for example, imagine negative consequences to mixed gender education. Or to the eating of shellfish. Or the wearing of polyester shirts. Pick any example you feel comfortable with, if you like.

So I am pointing out that in itself, that is not a very relevant question. And I am illustrating this by naming a few examples.

I think this is fairly uncontroversial, no? I cannot imagine you disagree.

nullzero · 26-03-2023 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403944#Comment_120403944

You drew a direct comparison between mixed gender schools and the issue of female only spaces. Now you're saying it was simply an attempt to say negative things can happen in any situation and re throwing other things into the mix like some sort of chaff.

I'm calling BS here. You could have just answered the question instead of being a condescending so and so.

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:01pm

Barbie Kardashian is not an outlier being used in some nefarious plot to harm all trans-identifying people. Barbie Kardashian is an example of the consequences that occur when safeguarding is set aside for "progress" in one area, only to take us backward in another.

This month, Canada's prisons department released a study showing that 44% of its trans-identifying male (transwoman) population had a history of conviction for sexual assault.

The federal bureau of prisons in the US revealed that ~50% of people identifying as transwomen in US prisons are in custody for sexual offences. This rate in the general male prison population is 11%.

In the UK, ~60% of male prisoners identifying as transwomen have been convicted of sexual offences. As compared to 18% of the general male population.

These are facts.

There are two options when looking for an explanation, as far as I can see. Either 1. Transwomen are much, much more likely than other males to commit sexual offences, or 2. Predatory males are exploiting gender self-ID laws and policies in a way that gives them a chance at greater access to vulnerable women.

My personal opinion is that 1 is very unlikely, and 2, predators being what they are, is very likely. And in light of the likelihood of 2, steps must be taken to ensure that women don't end up incarcerated with predatory males. If that means that some people are inconvenienced, it's a price worth paying. Because the alternative is that we wait until we have the same issues as other countries, where women have been assaulted, raped and even impregnated by the predatory males they've been locked up with.

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403935#Comment_120403935

Note how I most certainly do not question that you hold your ill-informed opinion, or your right to hold it, and treat you accordingly?

Your suicide rate indeed strongly indicates that trans people have a rough time. Although - how do we know those are not biased? You were convinced almost all research was a moment ago.

The same goes for "all scientific and biological reasoning". Isn't that all biased and untrustworthy?

How strange that you have done your research when you just finished telling people not to do any research, in so far as you tell them to automatically disregard studies that say things you do not like as they are all biased?

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403966#Comment_120403966

I think you are just feeling a little confused and upset because the argument is not going your way, to be honest. There are more and more accusations in there and less and less cogent arguments. This is not very convincing.

I have not changed my position at all: I have said the exact same thing several times over.

Do you disagree, and do you in stead think that if we can imagine any sort of negative consequence for something, no mater how extreme and rare the outlier, we should make rules against that thing?

I really don't think you do, you see.

26-03-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403969#Comment_120403969

You're gonna have to stick some links up in fairness. I could just counter with asking you to name how many people in Ireland have been assaulted / murdered by someone with a GRC cert since 2015 as against how many people in Ireland have been assaulted / murdered by someone without one since 2015. Then we can do the percentages.

Jequ0n · 26-03-2023 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403969#Comment_120403969

Can you link that study? Genuinely interested in reading it.

Thank you

thinkabouit · 26-03-2023 9:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403983#Comment_120403983

A rough time? Or maybe they realised they made a massive mistake? That’s something we’ll never no.

But the fact remains there’s a lot of people dying in that community for whatever reasons. if they actually got proper counselling from the start rather than being told there a man in a woman’s body maybe they might have a better perspective of things.

So what’s your story? Your on here just arguing with people & you support Barbie Kardashian?

nullzero · 26-03-2023 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404008#Comment_120404008

The problem for you is that we've gone beyond the conceptual stage here. Barbie Kardashian is a person who has raised issues in this arena that now need to be addressed.

As for your continued ad hominems, I've posed a question to you that you have refused to answer and somehow I'm confused and upset because the argument isn't going my way? I also never accused you of changing your position, I accused you of scrambling to justify your nonsensical argument regarding mixed gender schools.

Let's get away from the abstract stuff and pose a more personal question to you and see if you can give it any sort of an answer at all; post release from prison, Barbie Kardashian is in a changing room with a female relative of yours. They inform you that they felt uncomfortable in the presence of Barbie Kardashian. Do you feel they would be justified in feeling that way?

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404036#Comment_120404036

I am learning about the kind of arguments that get deployed in this debate. It is rather eye-opening.

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403969#Comment_120403969

That is odd. Did you not say earlier that they just retained a male pattern of criminality?

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404016#Comment_120404016

Find them all in this thread:

https://twitter.com/amy_likes_owls/status/1639105420059967488

It's mostly articles, but the ones that refer to studies/stats have further links you can use to get to the primary source.

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404056#Comment_120404056

Studies showing that transwomen retain a male pattern of criminality predate the sort of gender self-ID laws that open loopholes for predatory men willing to sign a form to access women's spaces.

Jequ0n · 26-03-2023 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404088#Comment_120404088

Very interesting. Thank you

26-03-2023 9:37pm

Far right website, yeah no surprise there.

But sure have a go at answering the rest of my question.

SouthWesterly · 26-03-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403400#Comment_120403400

Biologically there are 2 genders. The rest is in a persons head. That doesn't make it true. As I said earlier. Show me where someones DNA has changed into something else and then I'll be convinced

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404043#Comment_120404043

No, the problem is that you are not really following what I am saying. No matter. Maybe we can use your question in stead.

I can honestly say I would be extremely uncomfortable being in the same building as her. She seems to be a very disturbed and unpredictable person and I imagine she would scare the bejeesus out of me.

And yet, even though it is entirely possible she will offend again, our laws are such that we are going to have to let her out at some stage. Because when we make the laws, we did not decide that it had to be unimaginable that she did something bad once she got out in order to let her go again. Because if we did that, we would never let anyone out again ever, now would we?

Does that make more sense to you?

It is not the *existence* of threat. It is the level of it that is important. It is not an on or off kind of question.

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404130#Comment_120404130

I suspected that your ability to empathise with raped and assaulted women might be contingent on the political leaning of the media outlet reporting it - which is why I pointed out that the articles link to the primary sources in almost every case.

When left-leaning outlets start taking notice of these women being raped and assaulted, I'll be sure to post the links so you can feel something. 🙄

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404136#Comment_120404136

Biologically, these 2 genders are there to reproduce, and we haven't found a gay gene so far.

So does this mean there is no such thing as gay people?

Vivisectus · 26-03-2023 9:45pm

Ugh I hate trawling through far right cesspits. Is it possible to link the actual reports / studies?

nullzero · 26-03-2023 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404140#Comment_120404140

I appreciate your attempting to answer the question. Oddly the issue of a female perspective was dodged entirely. Perhaps you could attempt it again properly.

The continued condescending tone isn't appreciated however.

Your conclusions are strange also, laws can be amended and often are in response to unforseen events. You seem to be of the opinion that such changes are not possible.

26-03-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404144#Comment_120404144

Nah, I just don't bother with far right rabbit holes. Care to answer the second question? Probably not. It's a tough ask.

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404157#Comment_120404157

You can click through two links if you're interested.

As for "far-right", I'm sure Canada's "Rebel News" would come under that banner. But I'm not sure that The Spectator, Reduxx - feminist news and opinion, the NY Post, Women's Liberation Front, etc. really qualify.

SouthWesterly · 26-03-2023 9:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404151#Comment_120404151

They're not saying they are another gender.

thinkabouit · 26-03-2023 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404151#Comment_120404151

Ahh stop lad now your making a fool of yourself

MilkyToast · 26-03-2023 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404016#Comment_120404016

When we're talking about women's prisons and trans-identifying people, I'm not sure that assault and murder statistics in the wider population are relevant.

But if you plan to commission a study into the likelihood that people with/without a GRC (or identifying as/not identifying as trans in some way, I suppose) have a criminal conviction fire away. The results will be interesting at the very least, and might even change my mind about a few things.

More information is always good.