Considering renting for 6-8 months while working abroad, Ukrainian refugees easiest option?

mrcheez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464684#Comment_120464684

I mentioned "the quiet asian student" before.. but not sure I'd rent to any ol students given my experience of visiting fellow student's digs during my uni days 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464933#Comment_120464933

So you’ve nothing to backup the claim you’re endlessly making that evicting them would be a hassle free experience?

edit:

They are not tenants, they are licensees/guests, and are only there as long as the owner agrees to it, for the duration they agreed.

An agreement is irrelevant and it’s not what I asked you. I asked you to show me some evidence to support your claim, that is the claim that once the homeowner no longer wishes to house the refugees in this case, will they deal with any hassle removing them.

Since you have no evidence to suggest they will not deal with hardship, all you seem to have is distractions, smart comments about aliens and irrelevant links about hotels/hostels (I am not talking about hotels, I’m talking about private homes and you know that) I’m going to request that you stop spouting such bollocks.

All that said if it’s such an easy deal why don’t you offer your house up to any? I dont have a spare room myself, but let me tell you if I did I’d use it as a closet before I’d rent it to strangers, especially in Ireland.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465452#Comment_120465452

Go easy on him. As I said earlier I really dont know whats eating him but he is never going to admit he is wrong. You could be replying for weeks. Once he brought aliens into the conversation and started with the name calling that was my my decision made to leave it and let him feel he is right. Consider it my act of kindness for the day.

Its not the first time ive had to bail out on a conversation with him. Its like you are talking about something and he just starts inventing other stuff so he can feel he is right or something.

Better to just stop now before they have a stroke trying to get one up on you :)

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465333#Comment_120465333

Isnt it mad that it has now turned so much that they are the dream tenant these days :)

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465452#Comment_120465452

What “hassle” are you referring to?

There certainly is no legal hassle removing a licensee, they have no more rights than a guest in your house. They are not covered by the Residential Tenancies Act.

Are you insinuating that removing a Ukrainian refugee who is a licensee is more difficult than an Irish licensee? I certainly hope you aren’t.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465534#Comment_120465534

Oh god help me not only are you ignoring my question you’re now implying some sort of racism?

I’ll ask this once more and then you can go play by yourself in the sand:

can you show me any cases of a licensee who refused to leave being forcibly removed in a timely manner contrary to how tenants who refuse to leave overhold for months and months (or years)? If you cannot then please stop stating it’s a cut and dry scenario.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466216#Comment_120466216

You keep asking for cases where licensees were forcibly removed? There are no rights to reside like there are in tenancies, so no need for forcible removal.

If you understand what a licensee is, they have no more rights than a guest in your house beyond return of a deposit which is covered by the SCC.

If a licensee stays beyond reasonable notice, which by the way is undefined in law, then you can notify them that their stuff is outside the door, and change the locks.

What rights do you think a licensee has, and why do you keep asking for documented cases where they refused to leave and were forcibly removed? Have you are reason to think Ukrainian refugees are more likely to need to be forcibly removed than their Irish counterparts?

I will ask you a very simple question, why would you think there would be hassle/need for forcible removal in relation to an owner availing of the Governments housing of Ukrainian refugees?

I’m convinced you are clueless about what a licensee is, what the Governments arrangements are with people/hotels who offer temporary housing for refugees, and all this despite me linking numerous times to the arrangements on the gov.ie site and newspaper articles about hotels ending the arrangement with the Government.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466216#Comment_120466216

This post (and others) are needlessly aggressive and over the line here.

Please read up - and understand - what a licensee is before continuing to post on this thread. This applies to DownByTheGarden also.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414170#Comment_120414170

The only person who doesn’t have the protection of the RTA/RTB is a person who lives in a dwelling within which the owner also resides. Difficult to argue when the person only moves in when the owner is abroad. Calling it a licence does not take it out of the RTA.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469677#Comment_120469677

The post you quoted of mine was in response to a poster who had in turn quoted a post related to the Unknainian refugee temporary housing. None of my posts relate to the situation you refer to.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469677#Comment_120469677

The RTAA doesn't apply when no rent is payable. The €800 a month for ukranians is not rent therefore the RTA does not apply. It is not a lease masquerading as a licence.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465534#Comment_120465534

People is in your house and refuse to move out, one of them always remains in the house. How exactly do you remove them? They are essentially a squatters at that stage. The gardai have no function unless they have caused damage or stolen something. You cannot physically touch them or else you are liable for charges under NFOAP Act. The sheriff will not get involved until there is a court order. The mere fact that they might not have a legal right to be there does not convey an ability to remove them. It is wrong but it is the case in Ireland and many other jurisdictions.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469786#Comment_120469786

I can wholeheartedly agree with this. Of course, if they choose not to leave they cannot be physically removed without a court order.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471669#Comment_120471669

This is incorrect.

There is a right to use reasonable force to remove a trespasser. Security would not be long removing a guest who overstays in a hotel room.

There is nothing to stop an owner entering the property, bagging up the squatters stuff and putting it outside the door after the reasonable notice period has elapsed.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471673#Comment_120471673

They can of course be physically removed. How do you think people removed from nightclubs every night of the week? Once a person is told to go they become a trespasser and reasonable force can be used to remove them. There is a restriction on using unlicenced security companies for the task otherwise there is no doubt force can be used. No court order is needed.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465452#Comment_120465452

I think you may have a point, a tenancy is not likely, but still you do not have possession of the house, the licencees do.

Which could be an issue in this country as seen where squatters enter a property and the owner needs a court order to get possession back.

But I haven't heard of any cases where this has happened and it might be worst case scenario thinking, the risk is probably the same as leaving it empty and squatters take over the property.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474614#Comment_120474614

What? The owner does have possession of the house in a licensee arrangement, the occupants have the same rights as guests in your home.

There are no squatters rights in Ireland, the legal term you are looking for is Adverse Possession. As the occupants are there with the permission of the owner while an agreement existed with the LA, and they will be there well shy of 12 years, the occupants would not be able to claim adverse possession. The owner does not need a court order to remove a licensee.

Do you think a hotel or guest house would have to apply for a court order to remove a guest who wouldn’t leave?

https://ipoa.ie/squatters-rights/

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474739#Comment_120474739

Kind of a dumb point to make if the article contains this:

"Adverse possession, as it is known in legal terms, (otherwise known as “Squatter’s Rights”) allows a third party to claim a right over a property which is registered in the name of another person"

I kind of suspected you in particular would throw in an objection about the permission part, even though I did not mention that I thought such a claim would be successful.

But point is IMO this is not a hotel or guesthouse situation, you are not in continuous occupation of the property presumably. Hence there is potential for a squatter or whatever you want to call it. You need a court order to remove..

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475045#Comment_120475045

I'd recommend you look up the actual requirements for adverse possession - being there with permission (or licence) makes it impossible to claim. But its irrelevant anyway.

You do not need a court order to remove a licencee. Nobody is ever going to be able to find something to prove this, because it never gets to court.

If a licencee is removed after reasonable notice has been given, that's it. There won't be a court case as there's nothing to claim over. Reasonable force may be used; but realistically they're going to leave the house at some stage and you just change the locks.

All exceptionally hypothetical in the context of this thread too.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475045#Comment_120475045

Before you post anymore, could you please look up what a licensee arrangement is. There is so much rubbish posted on this thread by people who haven’t bothered to look up what occupation under license actually is. A licensee, be it in a house, a hotel, a B&B etc has permission to occupy a premises only as long as the owner agrees to it, someone claiming adverse possession does not, and never had. And to claim adverse possession you must have use, to the exclusion of the owner for 12 years. Nothing about the temporary housing of Ukrainian refugees under the Government scheme even approaches that scenario in any way. That fact that you think any of that is “a dumb point” indicates you do not know anything about either AP, nor the housing of Ukrainian refugees .

I really can’t fathom why you or anyone else seems to think that Ukrainians are any more likely to cause hassle than an Irish licensee. You don’t read about house owners having to get court orders to remove licensees from their homes, so I’m struggling to see why you would think it would be necessary under the refugee temporary housing scheme. I have linked to articles where hotels have opted out of the scheme and the refugees are being house elsewhere. Both the Government/LAs and the refugees are relying on goodwill and cooperation of hotels and house owners when volunteering their accommodation. If either takes advantage of that, then both know that the goodwill will come to a very abrupt end.

So please, as I said, look up what a licensee is, the gov.ie site states in plain english what arrangement exists, stop making outlandish claims that have no basis in reality.

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/licences

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475087#Comment_120475087

Again, impossible to win a case is not the issue and I categorical did not claim that.

I disagree reasonable force can be used, that is certainly not an option. I am not an expert here, but I have never heard a squatter being removed without court order and there have been plenty of examples of property owners going to court to have squatters removed, even if the squatter doesn't have a hope of succeeding, a court order is still obtained.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475313#Comment_120475313

Once again - a licencee is not a squatter. They are not going to become a squatter under any circumstances, as they are there by permission.

This thread is going around in circles and has gone wildly off topic now.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475313#Comment_120475313

In relation to the use of reasonable force, this is the legislation you are looking for.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/18/enacted/en/html

”appropriation” is taking possession/using something/property without consent.

This is one crazy thread, the op was simply asking about taking up the Government scheme to offer his/her home to temporarily house Ukrainians. This is a win-win, the op does something good, and gets paid €800 pm, why posters are speculating about squatting, hassle, court orders, tenancy rights etc is unfathomable when the arrangements have been clearly stated, and explained on the Government website.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475333#Comment_120475333

But a squatter is just a term for someone in possession of your property without permission.

If they have your permission there is no issue or need to eject. Look I am well aware that prior permission negates a successful adverse possession case, but that is something that can be argued in court if the other party shows up and not a defense to using force to physically eject someone from a property they have possession of. We are not that kind of country....

It is certainly a different case to someone in a property where you do hold possession, for instance a hotel, etc.

Not really sure what has been said on thread and if it has strayed off topic, I haven't really been involved.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475420#Comment_120475420

It won't be argued in court as there is no case to be taken. You eject the now no longer licencee, it's over. They don't have grounds to take you to court.

You aren't going to find a court case for this type of scenario because it doesn't happen, despite multiple scare stories from multiple posters.

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475378#Comment_120475378

Not a chance Davo 🙄

Final word on this:

A licence = broad

A hotel/guesthouse = different to anything else.

No mention of Ukrainians by me. I certainly have no issue with anyone helping them.

Government did something half passed and there is potential for property owners to get stung = possibly yes.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475420#Comment_120475420

They DO NOT have possession of the house, they are there under license.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475438#Comment_120475438

I literally linked to the relevant law, license is not “broad”, I posted to the RTB definition of it, and the license related to occupancy conveys the same rights to a person in a house, as those in a hotel.

I’ll link it again for you, please read before you post again:

https://www.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/types-of-tenancies-and-agreements/licences

DFB-D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475474#Comment_120475474

I had finished posting, but if you are going to attempt to moderate this forum by demanding posters follow your instructions...

That link does not mention any of the things you claim it mentioned. It says "Licensees can arise in all sorts of accommodation but most commonly in the following four areas". And then lists hotels in one area and occupation of houses in another area.

Not a massive surprise given that the RTB deals with tenancies and not possession, but there is no mention of possession anywhere. Acid test here: you own a house which you cannot access because someone else won't let you in. Who do you think has possession of the house, adverse or otherwise?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475474#Comment_120475474

Doesn't a tenancy arise when the occupants have exclusive occupation of the dwelling according to the RTA?

It's easy to see how a person would be a licensee in a hotel or guest house as there would be many other guests, or even in a private house where the owner was living. It seems incorrect where the occupants are living in the entire property. The RTA says it applies to every dwelling and “dwelling” means, subject to subsection (2), a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit..... 

According to Shelter in the UK, rent has been held by the courts to be a regular, contractual payment, ie the total amount paid to a landlord by an occupier in return for use and occupation of accommodation (can't find a definition of rent on the RTB website).

It's a bit odd that individuals living in a privately owned house or apartment that was previously vacant can be classed as licensees because the government needed a lot of accomodation fast, yet those same properties would be classed as tenant rentals under the RTA because of exclusive occupation and also because the owner was receiving money whether that is called rent or fees or whatever the Ukranian licence document calls it.

In fact, the licence agreement is not even an official document afaik, just a template that an owner can use to draw up an agreement with a Ukranian family.

TBH, I can't really see the difference between the Ukranian licence scheme and the LA RAS scheme as in both situations, the council / government agency selects the occupants and pays a fee/subsidy/valuable consideration to the owner. Yet one falls under the RTB with all the benefits of the RTA and the other is a licence?

Also, tenants who stop paying rent are still considered tenants by the RTB so if the state €800 ends, the Ukranian occupants will still be in the property with exclusive possession so how are they licensees?

I can see how owners would be reluctant to take the Ukranian housing programme on face value, especially since all the recent changes were in favour of the 'permitted occupiers' of a property.