Trans Woman School shooting TN

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439590#Comment_120439590

What a load of crap. From a side who can’t decide if a gun has less rights than a child.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439613#Comment_120439613

They have decided years ago the gun is the future of America and must be protected at all costs.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434096#Comment_120434096

Two observations.

1) If the teacher is armed, his primary duty is surely to the children under his/her care. That does, indeed, means barricading himself in with his/her class and letting the rest of the school take their chances. Unless the teacher is tasked by policy with actively hunting down a shooter (for which I'm sure the teacher will be trained and provided with a weapon), the teacher presumably has his/her own weapon for defensive purposes. Just like anyone else. I carry a gun. My primary goal is the security of my family. Any other assistance I may render is only after that primary function has been met. If the family next booth over in the restaurant chose to be unarmed, that's their problem.

It's the difference between the school telling the staff to be armed, and the school leaving the decision to be armed or not to the individual's discretion, just as it would be outside the school grounds.

2) There seems no indication that leaving the option to arm the staff has in any way made matters worse.

The remainder of your post I am in some agreement with, though it is evident that school shootings to the level that we are having now are a far more recent problem than the questions of "access to guns", which certainly hasn't changed in the last century, except by tightening access. I, too, would like a day where school shooter drills weren't a thing, and schools weren't fortified. However, until the causes of the shootings are successfully dealt with, there seems little option in the matter. It will take many years and a government (either State or Federal) which actually cares enough to try to do something which will not show any tangible result within the next four-year election cycle.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441903#Comment_120441903

Although your posts read quite pessimistic it also seem to reflect the general political view in America on the subject- solutions seem to be far away in the future, no concrete plan to address the problem. The Republican seem to think that the threat of armed guards will stop these mad people but that just seems to reduce the body count and a lot of the perpetrators don't seem to fear death. The Democrats seem to want to want to increase gun control but many of these guns seem to be bought legally and a pair of handguns could probably still a couple of innocent people as easily as an assault rifle.

It just seems that Americans have a bad relationship with guns that no other developed country seems to have, like the Irish or Scottish have with Alcohol.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442117#Comment_120442117

The difference in the amount of people one could kill with something like an AR-15 and a couple of Glocks would be marked. Plus, a Glock fires a 9x19 round whereas and AR-15 fires an assault rifle calibre round .223 or 5.56. One will do much more damage to the victim than the other. In addition, you have muzzle velocity to consider too and the rifle barrel fires its round at a much higher speed than a handgun, allowing the shooter to hit their victim from a longer range. Finally, RPM from something like an AR-15 would be higher as well.

There's a reason who something like the AR-15 is the weapon of choice for mass shooting fuckheads.

As a sidenote, the idea that the Irish and the Scottish love alcohol any more than other nation is a myth. There's plenty of other countries that would drink the both of us under the table. America for one.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441903#Comment_120441903

The thrust of the discussion at that stage was that armed teachers (good guys with guns) made a difference to the outcome.

As tragic as the loss of life was, the fact that a shooter with multiple guns and 100+ rounds of ammunition could only kill 3 children in a 600 student school is testament to the staff response & training, including the "good guys with guns". Video of the shooting shows the shooter seemingly unable to find victims.

I am in no way denigrating the actions of the staff and they apparently reacted appropriately in the circumstances. I am saying that the specific fact that teachers had guns contributed nothing to the outcome, which apparently was the result of the very fast and courageous action of the police who arrived at the school.

Maybe if the shooter had just happened to enter one of the classrooms where there was an armed teacher, the shooter might have been shot. In the event that did not happen, but it does add weight to the argument that all adults in a school should be armed, an alarming thought when you consider how ditzy some adults can be. Also there are likely to be as many, or more, teachers in a school who are passionately opposed to guns in schools as there are teachers who feel passionately that they have a right and duty to be armed in the protection of their students.

Meanwhile however a class full of impressionable children saw their teacher, gun at the ready, and learned the lesson that a gun is necessary to protect you. So another generation of Americans grows up wanting that protection and have learned they need to be always armed and ready to kill someone else. What a sad way to live.

Ashbourne hoop

Of all the suggestions around school shootings in America, arming teachers has to the dumbest. To suggest the answer to guns is to have more guns is complete lunacy. Teachers have a stressful enough job without adding gun training to the mix, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a stressed, armed teacher one day just decides to go "postal".

At the end of the day too many Americans have decided after Columbine, Sandy Hook, Uvalde and Tennesse etc that dead children is a price they are willing to pay to exercise their 2A rights. I can't understand it at all, particularly the lack of willingness to address it any meaningful way.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443039#Comment_120443039

I think arming teachers isn't a great solution too. That's about the only part of the above post that I agree with.

Many people agree with your logic but I don't agree with the that if you want to own a gun, you don't care about children and are happy to see them massacred. That's bullsh1t to be honest. I'd hazard a guess that a significant number (if not most) of gun owners have children of their own. Are you saying that gun owners with children are happy to see their own children killed?

The problem, as I see it, with the lack of movement on gun control is that an awful lot of people seem to think that gun control means banning guns. When people/politicians/media are very vocal in calling for that, that puts gun owners on the defensive and then you get entrenchment.

I'm in favour of measures that stop crazy people from getting guns such as gun registrations, background checks, medical checks, red flag laws etc. but I'd also be in favour of laws that allows stable, law abiding citizens access to whatever firearms they desire (rocket launchers, missiles etc. excluded obviously).

looksee

laws that allows stable, law abiding citizens access to whatever firearms they desire 

People are only law abiding and stable till they are not.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443157#Comment_120443157

To be honest banning sales of and taking back the majority of guns like they did in Australia after the Port Arthur Massacre would be the quickest solution to instantly bring down the body count in America until they figure what cultural issue in America causes generally law abiding citizens to take out their rage on innocents people.

I think gun owners get a bad rep because of their most public representatives, the NRA and republican politicians who disingenuously claim to be doing something about the problem while kicking the can down the road as far as possible.

Having different laws in different states doesn't help. The only time I recall a Republican politician actually imposing stricter gun control laws was Reagan when Governor of California and that was only because a leftist group, the Black Panther group started arming themselves. Perhaps that is the way forward for leftists who want stricter gun controls in Republican states!

martingriff

This maybe a bit off topic but maybe I only noticed this because of last week but

I was watching the movie Shazam this weekend on TV (good movie) and one scene was Billy arriving at his new school and they have to stop at a metal detector and take off there bags to be checked and then passed through and a kid saying don't be scared it's to make us safe.

It stood out to me and shocked me. Probably in other movies and shows but never noticed it before

Sending children to school in body armour and helmets can't be far away.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442400#Comment_120442400

I don't think anyone, even the most entrenched pro gun people, have ever said that all teachers in a school should be armed. It's sort of the reverse perception of the idea that anti- gun people want all guns removed from society. As you observe, some folks just are not suited to firearms, a mandate would be daft. The "good guy with the gun" you quote refers to the police.

What has been argued, and Is my position for now given all factors, is that the prohibitions should be removed. As it stands today, all teachers may be armed at home, most may be armed on the opposite side of the street from the school or in the school parking lot 50 yards from the building. There is nothing magical about a school building perimeter which changes a person's nature, yet the laws act as if there is. "You, a teacher, are responsible enough to be entrusted with the safety and education of our children. You, a teacher, may wear a sidearm as you go about your business in public, even on a class trip to the zoo or wherever. But you, a teacher are not responsible enough to do both at the same time. We shall prohibit you, by law, from doing so, with no exceptions regardless of how well regarded you may be by parents or other staff, or if you are a decorated combat veteran turned teacher under the "Troops to Teachers program." There is no logic to it.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443684#Comment_120443684

The suggestion of banning sales and taking back guns is exactly why gun owners in America won't budge an inch. As soon as politicians mention a gun ban, gun sales go way up. And I mean way way up. That's what happened after Sandy Hook. Shelves were cleared in many shops. They simply had no more guns to sell until they got restocked. Approximately 150,000,000 guns have been sold in the US since Sandy Hook. That's 150,000,000 in the last 10 years. That's a hell of a big number.

While most Americans favour some sort of gun control, most aren't in favour of removing the 2nd Amendment. I don't have more up-to-date figures but in 2018, only 20% of Americans wanted the 2nd Amendment gone. And as you've said, even if the 2nd Amendment was removed, most States have their own Constitution and many of them include the right to bear arms. This problem isn't going away any time soon.

Talk of banning gun sales and taking back the majority of guns is about as realistic as asking for 'World Peace'. And even if a decision was made to take back the guns, how do you go about taking back over 400,000,000 guns from people who believe they have a right to those guns and an awful lot of those gun owners won't give them up peacefully? This is what would happen.

On the Australia thing, it's amazing that so many people think guns are banned in Australia since the Port Arthur massacre. Certain types of guns were confiscated and can't be licenced any more but there are still plenty of guns in Australia. In 2021 Australian civilians were reported to own approximately 3,500,000 guns. We have approximately 200,000 guns here in Ireland.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445296#Comment_120445296

As soon as politicians mention a gun ban, gun sales go way up. And I mean way way up. That's what happened after Sandy Hook. Shelves were cleared in many shops. They simply had no more guns to sell until they got restocked. Approximately 150,000,000 guns have been sold in the US since Sandy Hook. That's 150,000,000 in the last 10 years. That's a hell of a big number.

Confirmed. My father was deathly and racially afraid of Obama and being disarmed by 'socialists' etc. and within weeks of the Sandy Hook massacre the guest room closet was packed with more than a few hundred pounds of ammunition, semi-automatic shotguns, assault rifles and handguns were purchased.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444301#Comment_120444301

But is it not a messed up situation that teachers have to be armed, or have Americans lost all concept of what messed up is? In most countries if a school had armed guards you would think this is a dangerous area while in America this seems to show parents care about their kids.

Reminds in the scene in the movie Man on fire where every student in the posh private school in Mexico city have bodyguards as they are afraid of kidnappings. it is required because of the dangerous situation that has been caused by criminals. But the situation in America has been caused by its own citizens.

Ashbourne hoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443157#Comment_120443157

I didn't say they were happy to see them massacred, my point was that the killing of children doesn't seem to be influence and great push for change. That doesn't happen any where else.

Surely to god it shouldn't be that difficult for people to realise that gun control isn't banning guns ? That's never going to happen because of the "precious" 2A.

No civilian, crazy or not, should have access to weapons like AR-15s.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444171#Comment_120444171

Arm the children obviously. 🤷‍♂️

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447128#Comment_120447128

I have one. I use it for target shooting competitions both here and abroad.

Ashbourne hoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447326#Comment_120447326

And ???Surely target shooting could be done with a less deadly weapon ??

Look, threads like these are an exercise in futility. Nothing is going to change with guns in America, and mass shootings are going to a regular occurrence. I think it's a crazy situation, but a lot of Americans seem to want to live that way. Wouldn't be for me.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120448046#Comment_120448046

My point is that there are AR15s and similar semi-automatic rifles are licenced here in Ireland and we don't have a problem with them here. You said nobody should have such a firearm. I countered that target shooters need them to take part in certain types of competitions. And those competitions take place regularly here in Ireland and in most of Europe and there's no problem. The UK are pretty much the only country in Europe that have them banned. That leads me to honestly believe it's not 'just' the guns. There's a multitude of other factors at play that lead Americans to want to go shoot up a school.

I agree that nothing much will change in America. And I also wouldn't want to live in America, but not because of the guns, because of all the other social issues.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120448742#Comment_120448742

This person wasn't a competitive shooter but still had at least 7 guns.

There is the bulk of the problem.

Availability, cost and ease of attainability.

Guns. There is no mystery here.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120448894#Comment_120448894

It's not just the guns though. It's mental illness + guns. It's societal problems + guns. I've more than 7 guns. I ain't going around shooting up schools. Many of my shooting buddies have a similar number of guns as me and some have more. We are either shooting targets or missing targets, one or the other. None of us have ever gone postal with our firearms. In fact, most fatal shootings here in Ireland with licenced firearms are carried out with single or double barrel shotguns and not AR platform rifles. I don't think there's a record of someone with a licenced AR platform rifle ever shooting someone here. Open to correction on that though.

I think we can all agree that there wasn't as many of these kinds of school shootings 50 years ago. I wonder why the number of school shootings have gone way up lately? Lets look at your reasons, availability, cost and ease of attainability.

Availability. Yep, there's more guns in the US nowadays but it's a little more difficult to get them. Attainability. You won't agree of course but strictly speaking, it's gotten more difficult nowadays to get a gun in the US when you compare how easy it was to get one in the US 50 years ago. 50 years ago you could cut out a coupon from a newspaper, send it away with a cheque and you'd get your gun posted to your house. You can't do that nowadays. Or you could walk into a gunstore and walk out with your firearm. You can't do that in all States nowadays. There's a 7 day cooling off period for handguns in many states for instance. Background checks 50 years ago.......meh. Lots of background checks nowadays. So it looks to me like guns are a bit harder to get than 50 years ago.

Cost. Yep, guns are probably cheaper now. I'll give you that.

What you have nowadays are a lot more fcuked up people. A lot more crazy people. A lot more highly medicated people. A lot more nutcases who believe stuff on social media. A lot more disaffected youth. A lot more people who are annoyed because they see social media stories of people flaunting their wealth etc. while they feel aggrieved because they live in a sh1thole and feel like a loser. Oh yeah, and the guns. But guns are only a part of it. A significant part for sure, but still only a part of it.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447128#Comment_120447128

I don't think you realise that you are contradicting yourself in the above post.

You say "Surely to god it shouldn't be that difficult for people to realise that gun control isn't banning guns" and then you go on to say "No civilian, crazy or not, should have access to weapons like AR-15s."

On the one hand you say that gun control isn't banning guns, but that sounds awfully like you want to ban civilians from owning AR15s. So, which is it?

looksee

But preventing civilians, crazy or not, having access to weapons like AR-15s is not banning guns, its limiting the availability of one particular gun or type of gun. There are still endless firearms out there for people to defend themselves, practise shooting, kill animals etc. Just because some people want to shoot AR-15s just because they want to isn't a good reason for them to be available.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449391#Comment_120449391

But preventing civilians, crazy or not, having access to weapons like AR-15s is not banning guns, its limiting the availability of one particular gun or type of gun.

Which is why it's not a good solution, or even a patch job. They just roll out an AR-16, or something else that variants the weapon inside compliance with the law.

Red Flag is where the focus ought to be, there's been many (not all) shootings that display they could have been prevented from having them.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449391#Comment_120449391

Of course it is banning guns. It's banning AR15s, which are guns.

And here's how futile it is banning AR15s. There are many, many, many other makes and models of guns that are capable of doing the exact same job. Are you going to ban them too?

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449402#Comment_120449402

Later, lets take tiny steps.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449486#Comment_120449486

Your suggestion is why the NRA and similar organisations are so popular in the States. I'll let you into the mind of many gun owners.........Now that the banning of one make and model of gun is on the table, I no longer trust you. I now won't accept any sort of gun control measures you suggest, even if I think they are sensible because I now know that if you get rid of the AR15s, then you'll come back for something else. That's how this works.

First they came for the handguns and I did not speak out - because I was not a handgun owner

Then they came for the semi auto rifles , and I did not speak out - because I was not a semi auto rifle owner;

Then they came for the semi auto and pump shotguns, and I did not speak out - because I was not a semi auto and pump action shotgun owner

Then they came for the .22 sporting rifles and I did not speak out - because I was not an owner of such

Then they came for my double barrel and single shot air rifle- and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Not my quote but it's pretty relevant.

looksee

Look I realise that this is not a matter for levity, but there is no will to do anything about children being shot in the place where they should be relaxed and safe, and it is a complete waste of time trying to impose the thinking of most of the civilized world onto Americans with guns. So I made a flippant observation, because that is all I can do.

All over the world there are societies that everyone else looks in on and cannot fathom, but nothing can be done about them till the will to change comes from within. Or not, and they just continue the way they are. All those states that insist that children must be born, but once they are born its ok to let them be shot because...guns. Pro-life, yes, sometimes, unless its at the expense of our rights. Patch up the mess with thoughts and prayers.

There is nothing to be said or done from here, they will have to figure it out for themselves. Pity about the kids.