Time to dump Irish

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439049#Comment_120439049

The Invader merely explains how the situation came to be The USA was also a victim of The Invader. Lots of places were victims of The Invader. Doesn't counter my point. Language is a personal thing and the historical presence of An Invader does NOT mean YOU get to choose it for someone else.

Case in point - my language is English. You can say its not all you want, but it would be a fallacy.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439643#Comment_120439643

I have no problem with you having that view. My view is different.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440713#Comment_120440713

Isn't it arrogant to say you know more about someone you've never met than they do about themselves? Broadly speaking?

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433377#Comment_120433377

No one was speaking Irish 3000 years ago it was imported from Europe same as English. So technically Irish isn't our native language.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442279#Comment_120442279

No its arrogant to try to twist other people's words. Broadly speaking.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442855#Comment_120442855

You were pretty clear: your language is the language of your forefathers, regardless of what you speak.

I'm out. I've proven my challenge to the words you posted.

And until people realise that everyone has a choice to disregard something they're told is theirs based purely on birth, Irish will never progress.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442967#Comment_120442967

Irish IS the language of my forefathers. No question about it. Unless you want to go back to the language of the cavemen like the other poster.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443217#Comment_120443217

Never said it wasn't and doesn't challenge my point.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443340#Comment_120443340

Oh there was a point??

AyeGer

We have been a free country for many years, free to speak and learn any language we want. If it was the true desire of the majority of Irish people to speak Irish it would have already happened. But it hasn’t. At what stage do we admit it’s not coming back as our primary language and stop forcing it on school children right up to leaving certificate.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446774#Comment_120446774

Not soon, probably never, its a mini industry in a way. Anyone that stands to lose anything won't want to let it go and the romantics etc won't either.

I personally don't like it, dislike the sound of it

(suspect I inherited that from my father who went to a secondary where they were taught through Irish about 60 yrs ago.... after having very little experience of it before + I'd never say it to him but he's gifted in terms of technical things etc and completely shite when it comes to language and meaning, constantly mispronouncing English never mind irish and misunderstanding meanings etc etc yet he could probably build, fix or engineer nearly anything if he put his mind to it....he absolutely loathes irish though, rightly or wrongly he feels it robbed him of opportunities, never fails to complain about commentary in irish on GAA matches which I find amusing)

However I don't think it should be jettisoned, it is a point of difference, something unique to the island....I'd often bemoan how americanised our culture is becoming/has become and how retarded some of our teenagers act.....then again I could be entering the old man shakes fist at clouds stage of my life!😅

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416949#Comment_120416949

In the LC Irish poetry is worth 5% of the exam (in English it's worth 25%). It hardly takes up a large amount of the curriculum though the number of 'thanks' your post got suggests many are convinced otherwise.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483188#Comment_120483188

Your challenge to the previous poster is correct, but students already speak English.

Having poetry in a language students are already struggling to speak is a bit bizarre - and this is before we get to the issue of how poetry is helping promote useage of Irish by teenagers.

Leaving Cert Irish is probably the worst enemy to any Irish revival, but as has been said previously: that's unlikely to be the genuine goal of the people paid by the State to bring it about.

screamer

Yes it’s too hard, not useful yada yada ….. dump it. Could be said of so much that is taught on schools but Irish is always the subject that people love to hammer because they just aren’t smart enough to learn it or couldn’t be bothered.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483226#Comment_120483226

I never said students don't speak English. The value or significance of poetry in language teaching per se is a different argument which you can have with someone else.

I'm simply pointing out that the comment about an over-emphasis on poetry in Irish teaching is wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483239#Comment_120483239

All very true.

Students are certainly smart enough to learn it - they're smart enough to learn other subjects.

So why can't they be bothered...? - my point entirely.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483240#Comment_120483240

I know you didn't, but my point is that IS the key difference, and I accept the point you made to the previous poster.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483293#Comment_120483293

That's fine - just I didn't ask anyone what the key difference was so not sure why you are replying to me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483369#Comment_120483369

Yeah, fair enough, I should have responded to.his post and not yours (or both, or neither!) but it was more making the point than attacking either of you.

Apologies :)

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483239#Comment_120483239

How is this in anyway helpful? If someone is not smart enough to learn it (unlikely) then is it their fault for lacking intelligence. The "couldn't be bothered" aspect begs the question what is it actually worth to people. Why would someone not be bothered? maybe its because they see no use for it whatsoever. I hated Irish and failed it at school. It wasn't a lack of intelligence as i was very good at maths, science and every other subject i studied including German. I strongly disliked the subject, i found the curriculum awful and the way it was taught left a lot to be desired.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439049#Comment_120439049

Ah jaysus. Yes Irish was gradually eradicated by the English and emigration. But **** happens. Time to move on

We have had a 100 years to try to bring it back and failed. I have a lot on common with English culture and don't feel I'm. Betraying anyone.

FishOnABike

The Irish language influences how we speak English. Indirectly it influences how we think. It is part of our heritage and part of what we are.

It needs to be taught in less of a dry academic way in second level and more as an integral and living expression of our culture and heritage. Leave the academic linguistics for third level.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520984#Comment_120520984

How exactly do you mean it 'influences how we think'?

Agree with your second paragraph

Third is a nice little buzzphrase that comes up all the time in this topic but is not really accurate - plenty of countries around the world without a language - e.g. Brazil. The phrase arrogant in it's dismissal.

BagofWeed

Funny how children of migrants can outperform Irish kids in speaking ....... Irish ! The hatred against the language normally comes from insecure people who deep down know they are not academically skilled enough to learn it. Don't speak it myself and am not academically skilled in languages either but not bitter enough to blame the language for my own academic shortcomings.

Zimmerframe

Personally, I blame Peig Sayers for the demise of the language. 🤣

FishOnABike

@Princess Consuela Bananahammock How exactly do you mean it 'influences how we think'?

Our thoughts are both directed and constrained by our ability to express them.

Different languages and differences in a language e.g. English v Hiberno-English reflect the culture and history of their speakers and have evolved to more richly express things that are more important to their speakers.

Concepts like the habitual tense in Hiberno-English come from Irish and reflect a subtly different outlook and both reflect and reinforce a way of thought.

Global communication may push us towards a common denominator but I think to lose part of our language, be it Hiberno-English (with its Irish influence) or Irish itself is to lose part of what makes us who we are.

Even the differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portugese reflects differences in their history and cultures.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522821#Comment_120522821

Odd how "Tír gan Teanga......" goes from a "nice little buzzphrase" to a "phrase arrogant in its dismissal" in just a couple of sentences. It's either harmless and woolly, or loaded and threatening. Hardly both at the same time.

And Brazil has hundreds of languages as you might expect in a country of 300 million people.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523229#Comment_120523229

Were not discussing hiberno-irish and were discussing Irish, and you've answered the question as to how a second language helps you think. If we chose a second language - and actually learnt it - you'd have a point.

The quote reads 'a country without a language' not 'a country without a dialect', so that point is fallacy. You can't just make random Exemptions.

It implies that Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, the USA - in fact, prerty much everywhere in America north and south - have no soul. And that's just ignorant.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524542#Comment_120524542

Brazil has one official langauge and its not Brazillian. That official language is the first langauge of something like 95% of the population. You could argue some indigenous peoples speak their own langauge, but they aren't a country.

Its a nice little buzzphrase for conversations like this - makes it sound like it's a big deal when, to a lot of us, it's just a tool for communication. Ultimately, though - harmless and wolly, as you put it. But doesn't stop it from being arrogant.

I never implied that it was threatening (or at least, never intended to).

CopperFaceZachs

I think it should be kept in primary schools as later in life, even if you never speak Irish, it gives you a strong foundation to learn other languages, as in the process to learn a language, it helped me out a lot in this regard.

Also, the best way to learn any language is total immersion and in most parts of Ireland this is not possible outside of your lesson in school and homework but if removed from schools it will just be lost eventually forever.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526147#Comment_120526147

It's all a matter of degree. A bit like evolution, European Australians split from their European roots from 250 years ago or so and their language and culture have developed in their own direction since. Time and the level of ongoing interconnection with their roots (and other languages and cultures) influence how distinct their identity becomes. Aboriginal Australian's go back another 60,000 years or so.

Similarly European settlers in America go back 500 years give or take, and as is said of the UK and USA "Two countries divided by a common language" Although closely related, they have developed in their separate ways.

It's all a matter of degree. Our language is part of what gives us a distinct iidentity, part of what makes the world such a diverse and interesting place. To lose our language would be to lose part of that.

Where are you from is about far more than geography.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526263#Comment_120526263

This is my point - your history and roots will have more influence in you than a language you don't speak and don't like. Saying it's 'yours' makes no difference. Saying nations don't have souls is bullshit.

It's only 'yours' if you speak with it and connect with it. And despite best efforts, a connection can't be forced!

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424870#Comment_120424870

That's fine - you just send your kids to the Gaelscoil and it can be abolished as a necessity elsewhere. Wins all round.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526171#Comment_120526171

I don't imagine the "Tír gan Teanga" line was ever meant to relate to "official" languages but if are going down that route then your general argument is redundant as Irish is an official language.

As for non-Portuguese languages in Brazil, many are official languages in different areas of a country incomparably vast in relation to Ireland.

And, yes, a simple aphorism did get quite a reaction from you. If you take an entirely utilitarian attitude to language then I suppose it will rattle your cage. But you probably wouldn't believe the interest in and affection people have for various languages.

For some reason most Irish people have little interest in languages. Even the cliched "I was fluent in French/German but couldn't learn Irish" (therefore it's someone else's fault) people will go to Australia/America or somewhere else that is like Ireland with sun rather than go to a European country and use a language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530085#Comment_120530085

Simple question then - is Brazil a country without a language? If not, then what is the language?

Arrogance always rattles my cage, as you put it, and I don't feel the need to defend this attribute.

I agree with your last paragraph, but that's the same everything. I'd love to be able to play the piano, for example, but...

No one blames anything though. We all know we cant because we didn't want it bad enough and weren't that interested. C"est la vie.

Guildenstern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522913#Comment_120522913

No, the hatred comes from the complete waste of time pupils have to spend on this rubbish. If people want to waste their time on a dead language that nobody needs to ever actually have to use, they only desire to, fine. Let them at it.

Just don't force the rest of us. If it was 'our language' we'd be speaking and writing it now. We don't. Case closed.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526263#Comment_120526263

How is Irish your language exactly? Do you speak it day in and day out at home with your family? Use it to conduct business and to achieve the daily tasks of living, read Irish literature? Do the people around you do the same.

The Irish language influenced the dead generations that gave us our history and traditions, but it has no more an influence on the average Joe or Mary today than any other language they have little understanding of. You can’t be influenced by something you don’t know and don’t care about!

Our language is Hiberno-English, it is an English dialect spoken by about 5 million people in their daily life and it is the actual language that influences us, not a language that most people don’t understand are hear no more often than they do most of the other main European languages.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530476#Comment_120530476

Brazil is a country of many many languages. You mentioned an "official language" previously. All that does is confer a particular status in the language in official usage.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531229#Comment_120531229

But every country has a language, if that's the standard.

Unless you're telling me what he's actually saying, is: a country without a linguistic means of communication is a country without a soul.

Odd. Also, not exactly wisdom.