Time to dump Irish

gormdubhgorm

This thread is just another sign of how in a three/four generations Irish people were told to speak English, by the English. Irish was the language of the poor and uneducated. To get on you had to 'dump' Irish.

So the mentality remains the mindset is the Irish language has no value. It is not worth anything. That mindset was planted when Irish was viewed as the language of the poor.

No rational person would have such an animosity towards any language. Especially the native language of their own country. It is an extremely odd dynamic. It reminds me of the self loathing Jew trope.

The bit that always amusing me,is that I can spot the Irish people who irrationally 'hate' Irish very simply.

The test is a simple one. Do they say TG4 as 'TG ceathair' or 'TG four' ? You can ask them did they see the match, or some pretext.

Next test mention something general that are commonly used Irish words but the English versions are not used, 'Taoiseach' 'Dáil'. Because 'The mark' would not have the wherewithal to know the English translation of these words.

If 'The mark' says 'four' and have no problem saying words such as 'Luas' 'Taoiseach' 'Dáil' etc - they are clearly making a concerted effort to say 'four' and not say 'ceathair'.

In my mind I immediately say to myself 'oh you are one of those.....' OK....

I sit back and smile, and sometimes I wonder do they write threads on boards about hating Irish and how it should be dumped....as well.

Even Irish soccer supporters who follow soccer with no Irish language - can say Paris Saint Germain (Phonetically Par-ee San Ger-man). But that is French why would anyone hate the French Language, that would be nonsensical....

But I do think the Irish should not be mandatory, and the standard for those who teach Irish should be dropped. Let the language develop organically, with loan words etc. That is my view on it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421836#Comment_120421836

Living in Germany (but not sepaking much German!) I've notice similar trends with football teams: Schalke Oh-Four and Schalke Null-Vier. Question is: how do you tell the difference between the two in online discussions when it's written down?!

With PSG - it's nearly always said in the French pronunciations in broadcasts, so saying it in French is just a habit. Strangely, Bayern Munich is more common than Bayern Muenchen...

I agree with your last paragraph (and an extension of my last post) whoever is in charge of teaching it to Irish students can only either a brain-dead retarded fuckwit or on the take. Even the students who are good at it frequently stop using it after leaving school which is the real failure.

quokula

I have a young son and I hate the thought that thousands of hours of his youth will be spent being forced to involuntarily learn a completely pointless dead language that will never serve any purpose in life, rote learning vocabulary and grammar that will never help him to communicate with another human being, will never enhance his understanding of the world, will never bring him opportunities later in life (unless he decides on a career inflicting it on the next generation).

When you think that time could be spent learning a real foreign language that could enrich his life and open so many doors, or learning more about science or history and expanding his horizons, or just doing something that he actually chooses and wants to do rather than being forced into something that’s such a complete waste.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120420164#Comment_120420164

"Indo European" is a vast array and are often very distinct from one another. Irish, more specifically in respect to language taxonomy, is a Celtic language and can be comfortably cross referenced with parts of other Celtic languages, like Breton or Cornish for instance. But there would be little cross-over between Irish and German. Certainly not in the same way as there would be with English and German.

As for compulsory teaching of a language, such a thing tends to get the hairs on the back of my neck standing up. One tends to learn a language to a high degree if they have an interest in it. A compulsory effort eschews one's interest, as we've seen with our compulsory teaching of Irish over the last 100 years. I have more Deutsch than I do Irish at this point, because there was an overlap in my other interests that guided me in that direction and I like the language too. Plus, because I'm an English speaker I found that German came to my ear more naturally than, say, French which I also studied at school.

But Irish I couldn't give a toss about, neither when I was in school or now, because I view it as useless to me. I know only one person who can speak it well and he doesn't use it all that often either. In fact he's said that his level of Irish (gold fainne) was decreasing, because he doesn't get the chance to use it much and he detests most so called "Irish speakers" who end up mangling the language. I watched him cringe while watching an exchange in the Dail chamber as politicians struggled through a few obligatory sentences before continuing in English. A language they were far more comfortable in using.

However, I'm certainly not in favour of consigning Irish to "history" (or Hurling for that matter). Both should be choices for people with an interest in learning them. The difference is, learning to play Hurling is a choice. Irish is not. And, frankly, that's what gets on a lot of people's tits.

Yellow_Fern

The level of education in Ireland is so poor. I see all the old chestnuts here. It is remarkable that so many people think rote learning is harmful or that critical thinking can be thought.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421623#Comment_120421623

People in power are afraid of the lobbyists and the Irish language cottage industry that has grown up around it.

They're also afraid of hypocrites who want compulsory Irish retained because they had to suffer through it, but who never spoke it since they themselves left school, the "I'd love to speak it, but *insert excuse*" people.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421780#Comment_120421780

That is not actually that case, but if you propagate it, that is how it will seem to him! First of all they learn the concept of having another language and how to think in another language. I think this very important when it comes to learning other languages later.

The other thing is that it is the only place you’ll really master grammar and that is critical when it comes to learning other languages later. I’ve spent over three decades in Switzerland and I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve been asked to sit down with English/American people and try to explain basic grammar to them. And it’s actually very difficult because you can’t give them comparisons or examples because they have no base.

clearly the Irish language has little utility in itself for most people, but the value it brings in terms of concept and grammar should not be overlooked. When it comes to learning your first foreign language a lot of your effort goes into learning the mechanics of your own language.

In my experience most Irish people coming to Switzerland find it easier to learn the main languages than people from the UK or the USA and they are also more likely to pickup the local Swiss German dialects. And I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact they come with things like grammar and language constructs built in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120417410#Comment_120417410

I’ve been told by parents that their children speak more/ and are more interested in Irish than their own language at home.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421998#Comment_120421998

Well, it might if people actually thought in Irish or actually learnt its grammatical rules rather than just rote-learning phrases and sentences.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422015#Comment_120422015

Ah but are they telling you that, as they think that's what you might want to hear?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421998#Comment_120421998

Yes I agree it has value at primary level in terms of exercising the ability to acquire a second language plus kids should get a shot at Irish language from a cultural aspect.

But by age 12 kids know if they want to pursue it. They should be encouraged to learn it by extra points etc but it should be optional.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421858#Comment_120421858

There are a number of issues with this post. The Irish language is not dead. Just endangered. Hungarian was once in the same position. But I would argue the size of their population helped.

I know people from Russia, Ukraine, England, America, Sudan, France etc who make an effort to speak Irish regularly socially. There is no baggage, no hang ups.

Irish is actually one of the official languages of the EU. And it's protection is encouraged by the EU. Any linguist/or person who does not think superficially knows a language is route in the soul of country. There are turns of phrases you simply don't get in the English language. Irish is way of viewing this.

For example as Gaeilge you simply don't say grudge. You can say , 'tá cloch sa mhuinchille aige dom'. Which means he had a grudge against me. But it literally translates as 'he has a stone in his sleeve for me'.

That is the beauty of language. Then there is the Irish placenames which really demonstrate the history and origin of an area.

The place name for Tallaght in Irish is said to derive from is said to derive from támh-leacht, meaning "plague pit". The earliest mention of a Tallaght is in Lebor Gabála Érenn ("The Book Of Invasions"), and is there linked to Parthalón, said to be the leader of an early invasion of Ireland. He and many of his followers were said to have died of the plague. The burials that have been found in the Tallaght area, however, are all normal pre-historic interments, mainly from the Bronze Age, and nothing suggesting a mass grave has so far been recorded here. 

In other words Irish can enhance your understanding of Irishness/History itself if you delve in enough into it, and are not blinkered.

I also note your mindset is given away in the last paragraph. 'spent learning a REAL foreign language'. Ergo, you see you see Irish as foreign language something 'other'. This my friend, is a post colonial hangover. A resentment of anything Irish. You have no doubt reared your son in that mindset, so the cycle continues.

It probably would be best that Irish was not mandatory in the short term, as it is wasted on the blinkered. For people like you who have a 'cloch sa mhuinchille agat i gcoinne na Gaeilge' - 'stone in your sleeve against the Irish Language'.

However, I had I my way the whole education system would be eventually done through Irish. But it was pointed out to me that there would not be enough Irish speaking teachers of a high enough standard.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421836#Comment_120421836

I wonder though might you be reading too much into Irish people's use proper nouns derived from Irish language words. You gave an example of taoiseach which comes from the Irish word taoiseach meaning chief. However taoiseach is also an English word for the office currently held by Varadkar which happens to be a loan word from Irish. It is used internationally in news reports e.g. from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63945064

A news story in English about politics in Israel migh use the word Knesset when referring to the parliament there. But this has nothing to do with attitudes toward the language from which it is derived.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423050#Comment_120423050

"However, I had I my way the whole education system would be eventually done through Irish. But it was pointed out to me that there would not be enough Irish speaking teachers of a high enough standard."

I think you might find that you're in a rarefied minority with that view - the Gaeilgeoir Taliban movement!!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Yeah, that really is a terrible idea. Teach kids in a language most don't understand for reasons purely selfish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422330#Comment_120422330

No, I have first hand experience of their enthusiasm. Not to over generalise but multilingual young children seem to pick it up and really enjoy it.

JDD

I have to say I get very irritated whenever reform of Irish language is mentioned there is immediately people saying "oh clearly you hate yourself" or "you've been taught to believe by the English that Irish is useless" or "would you get rid of hurling and St Patricks Day while you are at it?". Nonsense arguments.

Comparing us with Wales is difficult. Both Scottish and Welsh people are conflicted about staying in the United Kingdom, and learning their native language is a way of asserting their nationality within a structure where England dominates. Much like the Irish language revival in Ireland in the late 19th/early 20th century. There is a motivation there to speak the language, as a way of differentiating themselves. We do not need to do that. We are independent and mature nation who's relationship with the world is much more seen through an EU lens than an English one.

I understand that the Irish language is part of our overall culture and identity. But it is in no way the dominant part (nor should it be, language is a living and ever evolving thing). Appreciation for my history and culture entails appreciating national sports, learning our history, maintaining our historical sites and physical/geographical heritage, learning Irish music and Irish dance, and yes, appreciating and perhaps speaking a little of the Irish language.

Whether you are a fluent Irish speaker, or have terrible memories of learning Irish at school, I think we can all agree that we need to a mature discussion about what our aims for the Irish language are. We clearly cannot reinstall it as the dominant language, nor will it be the language of business or entertainment. I think the best we can hope for is that in a social context we can mix more Irish into our spoken English. Speak a Hiberno-English with a bit more Hiberno and a bit less English.

How do we go about this? Well, removal of teaching of literature and poetry during primary school would be a start. Focus the vast majority of the curriculum on oral, every day language. Take the focus away from written language until fifth and sixth class, and then teach the grammar properly. After that, make the language an option.

I also have a slight bugbear about all Irish primary and secondary schools. I don't for a moment think that parents actively make a decision to send their children there because there are less immigrant or special needs kids. But they do tend to send them there because the academic results are better than equivalent English schools. Why are the results better? Well, there are less immigrant and special needs kids for one thing. We should have a serious look to see how we can integrate immigrant children into gael scoils - for instance the German school has two streams, one for fluent children, one for those still learning the language. The two streams are integrated as much as possible. That might work in gael scoils.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423439#Comment_120423439

Silly argument kids pick up language easy, they have zero baggage. Unlike many adults on this thread.

But if the parents actively have an antipathy towards Irish for some reason. The children learn that behaviour.

The real problem is successive governments have dealt with Irish half assed. A preservation- symbolic type stance. The bare minimum.

They are at the same craic up North now using the Irish language as a symbol rather than using it as intended. A language.

Irish is just a language and a language should be spoken. Not just used as a political football or symbol.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423931#Comment_120423931

That first line is bullshit: I certainly didn't pick it up when I was a kid and there were lots like me then and lots of kids like me now. It might be easy if the kids are raise in a bilingual household from day one, but that's not happening.

It's nothing to do with antipathy or politics - it's simply the most stress-free option for most families to have their kids educated in a langauge they already have a grasp in. And it IS an education they want, not an exercise in forced nationalism to suit someone else's pipedream. And to put said pipe-dream ahead first IS the epitome of selfishness.

Nor is this some stone in the slieve - an education policy simply needs to put the students first, not the language.

Having the whole education in Irish is just as pig-headed, ignorant and selfish as dumping the language altogether.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422015#Comment_120422015

Told by parents isn't evidence , interestingly very little research done in this area but this shows that etb and gaelscoils aren't most welcoming https://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-primary-schools-diversity-divestment-facts-ireland-3252590-Mar2017/

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424034#Comment_120424034

Because it was not spoken to you at home simple as that. Bilingual kids get bilingual by seven after initial delay with English . Studies have proven this. And they can switch intuitively. If you watched Irish language telly only as a child you wouldn’t have known any different. But the teaching and incentive with Irish is all wrong the choice should be taken away from parents because there is too much baggage. But all Irish language education schools won’t work countrywide because there is a dearth of Irish language teachers - so it is a catch 22.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424093#Comment_120424093

My point entirely: Irish is not spoken at home in the majority of homes across the country - not just me. What should be done with kids in my position that don't pick up languages? Also, can you link to these studies yo talk of?

I didn't want to watch Irish language telly as a child - why would I? And why should I? I had English langauge television and I enjoyed it. Where's the problem?

And you really can't go round saying that ANYTHING should be taken away from the parents. You think parents are going to voluntarily give this up? Or you're going to take it by force?

So again - selfish pipedream.

Treppen

This is all a philosophical debate , there will NEVER be a politician who will step forward and become the "one who killed off the language".

Not saying that making it a choice is a bad thing. But it ain't going to happen... Ever... You'll have to redeploy a couple of hundred Irish teachers for starters 🤣

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424370#Comment_120424370

You have a point. Neither SF or FF would do it because of nationalist bullshit. I think FG proposed to stop making it compulsory at LC

If its ever stopped at secondary level it would probably be a left wing TD. Without a nationalist Side.

As a teacher, farce and education are often two sides of the same coin so for the foreseeable future Irish is here to stay

But never say never

As Tony Blair said "I never make predictions and I never will"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424080#Comment_120424080

I’m not using ‘ told by parents’ as evidence. I mentioned that I have direct experience of the enthusiasm of multilingual children in their engagement in Gaeilge. I haven’t mentioned gaelscoils in my post. Again not to overgeneralise too much but in my personal experience children from multicultural backgrounds have engaged very positively with Gaeilge, pick it up very easily and are interested in using it within the school setting.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424611#Comment_120424611

Hardly a rip roaring argument for keeping it at secondary level.

At present non nationals comprise 14% of the population in total

Not trying to argue either way I was just offering an observation.

Long Sean Silver

absolutely NOT!

Like most people of my generation, i cannot speak/comprehend Irish. All of my children have been educated in our local Gaelscoil and they love it! Fantastic teachers, fab experience, no undesirables, no bullies.

When we first sent them I was a little apprehensive but in retrospect I am so happy we did.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120424870#Comment_120424870

You see the issue with the no undesirables I hope...

If its just unmanageable delinquents you are referring to its not that I don't sympathise and think its high time you had enforceable responsibilities that go with your right to education for a certain cohort

But if the system encourages even more areas that those that can afford to escape the undesirables can then ultimately it just concentrates the "undesirables" elsewhere in the system and those that cant afford the luxury but want to get on have their chances reduced etc

Tony EH

@gormdubhgorm

Silly argument kids pick up language easy

The last 100 years disproves this statement completely.