RTE radio1 LW

Paul Rusling wrote on Facebook that he has made enquiries in the past about using it but 2rn would want a 3 million euro bond

tinytobe

I don't think that any religious broadcaster would be interested in the 252.

The problem with the 252 is simply cost and lack of listeners, both a no go for anybody other than a public broadcaster who collects and lives on license fees and the legality behind it.

I suppose the only reason, the mast isn't dismantled is that there seems to be a DRM transmitter there as well? However DRM is not very popular, other than in India, I think.

I think the original transmitter from Texas is gone, they current one is from Germany.

Anybody pls correct me on this.

rathfarnhamlad

@Declan A Walsh

I managed to find a Facebook posting (works for me without an FB account) about the LW pirates (there were actually two of them) https://www.facebook.com/longwaveradiostationlistening/posts/a-pirate-radio-station-found-on-261-khz-this-december-2016there-was-a-pirate-tha/994622284015005/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427709#Comment_120427709

RTE/2RN don't have a history of rushing to remove unused AM masts, sure the 567, 729 ones are still standing and one of the 612 ones is also still standing.

I looked it up and April 14th is indeed the 5th closure date that RTE LW has had, the previous closure dates were October 27th 2014, January 19th 2015, May 1st 2017 and June 30 2019.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427785#Comment_120427785

Athlone is unlikely to go because of its historical significance but one of the masts was demolished about 10 years ago. There were discussions about preserving it as a museum exhibit but nothing has been said about it for a long time.

Everyone remembers Atlantic 252, Teamtalk 252 and RTE Radio 1 on 252 but I don't think many people remember Charity 252 which was a reality TV show RTE did for telethon 2004 in which 7 "celebrities" had to run a radio station broadcasting on 252 for a week.

The 729 kHz mast in Cork is bit of a landmark that’s seen by the tens of thousands of people who drive past it on the south ring every day.

It would be interesting to see it lit or something, even if it’s just a relic of a bygone era of broadcasting.

The only thing about memorialising something like that is there are long term structural maintenance and security costs. You can’t just abandon them as they could ultimately collapse.

It’s even worse with something like power station chimneys. They’ve huge maintenance costs and someone has to pay them, but you get a lot of lovely suggestions about retaining them as landmarks.

TAFKAlawhec

I thought that the old mast that carried 2FM on 612 kHz in Athlone was nowadays being used to host a VHF Band II aerial for RTÉ's FM relays in the town as well as numerous mobile network aerials? Or am I wrong?

As for masts & towers being of historical importance, in my experience while in some other parts of the world some notable masts or towers have become notable local landscape symbols** or landmarks there's little such symbolism used in Ireland on both sides of the border. For example when BBC Radio 4 LW ends broadcasting on 720 kHz at Lisnagarvey, being the last service now broadcast from the decapitated Blaw-Knox mast at the site, I can see it being dismantled not too long after the transmissions are switched off for the final time. Despite its prominence over the M1 near Lisburn heading towards Belfast, it's never had any local symbolism I know of and keeping it maintained for non-broadcast reasons in what is now a heavily commercialised area surrounding the site (and so has potentially higher liabilities for any catastrophic failure) is a cost & job that Arqiva could do without, I'm sure.

P.S. @Declan A Walsh I'm aware of Energy Power AM in Dublin city, but they are only a "part-time" station if I'm right?

** One exception I know of would be to the people of the village of Trillick in Co. Tyrone, where whom the two Arqiva towers on top of Brougher Mountain lie within their civil parish - they're featured in local landscape images and the original tower (that is still standing) is locally called "Trillick's Eifel Tower". Funnly enough there's no such similar sentiment in the village of Tempo that lies on the opposite side of Brougher Mountain even though it's about equidistant to the TX site with Trillick, probably because it's not as easily visible from the village and that local topology actually doesn't make TV reception there that strong - it's easier to receive Carin Hill's TV transmissions than Brougher's!

Declan A Walsh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428442#Comment_120428442

I remember Charity 252. I listened to it! The presenters were all celebrities. As time went on, members of the public voted out participants. I recall that showband singer Eileen Reid and actress Sorcha Furling (Orla in Fair City) were involved. There was also an ex-member of Irish band Six. Just checking earlier threads now....her name was Emma O'Driscoll. Also: Amanda Brunker, Blathnaid Ni Coffey, Clare McKeown and Fiona McShane. The show was presented by Gerry Ryan. Eileen Reid was the ultimate winner.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056223585/who-remembers-charity-252

Should/will RTE do a collage of 34 years of broadcasting on LW 252 in the last hour to finish things off ?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428708#Comment_120428708

I think you're right actually. I've passed it several times on the M6 and there's definitely stuff on there.

Gold7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428963#Comment_120428963

Good ideaThey should have all the old Atlantic 252 jingles in the last hour of 252,

RTE do come across pretty mean spirited to ignore these listeners

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430323#Comment_120430323

Are you saying that Irish people in the UK do not have smartphones, Freesat , sky TV or PC's and that they live in some strange world where poor quality long wave radio is a "life or death" issue?

In this day and age most older folks can handle phones, tablets and apps and for those who prefer not to there are excellent physical internet radios and smart speakers that will respond to simple voice commands.

The argument for LW to serve UK listeners are thin, low fi and often VERY crackly.

RTE should more heavily promote that they’re available free of charge on FreeSat rather than implying they’re only on pay TV platforms like Sky and Virgin.

RTE R1 is on 750

2FM on 751

LyricFM on 752

Raidió na Gaeltachta ar 753.

SPDUB

there are excellent physical internet radios and smart speakers that will respond to simple voice commands

People have been reporting issues with smart speakers in the last few weeks and I notice that the RTE feeds on radiofeeds.net are not working today

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430323#Comment_120430323

No date (so it could have been this weekend or a decade ago) & no other context other than it's a "save 252" campaign involving 15 people with banners & placards?

Listeners in GB have been warned now for over a decade the 252 kHz transmitter would eventually be switched off, and that they should in the long term seek to use the alternative methods available to them to listen to the station, namely via satellite, cable or internet. Satellite is essentially FTA in every way to terrestrial radio for home/fixed use, while in the past decade LTE networks that can handle capacity for audio streams better than UTMS & GSM ever could is available in all but the very remotest of Britain, with mobile data costs never being cheaper. If you're a cable subscriber to Virgin Media UK, RTÉ Radio 1 is on the EPG.

If any other Irish public body or semi-state enterprise was found to be spending €250k - 400k per year to serve a small amount of refusniks with a service that was already being provided to them via several other alternative methods then it would quite rightly in 99%+ of cases be seen as an obscene waste of money that could be put to far better use.

As a couple of examples, I live in a rural part of Co. Tyrone, I'm reasonably fortunate that I'm served by most of the UK national broadcasting networks (or Ni sub-region of such a network), however I am missed out on in a few areas, notably that neither the SDN DAB ensemble or Classic FM is broadcast from Brougher Mountain - I'm able to get a somewhat secondary "fringe" service of Classic FM (not that I'm a listener) but if I wanted to listen to any of the stations on the SDN ensemble, I have to rely on internet streaming. C'est la vie.

Additionally, I remember around 30 years ago, after the first Gulf War and the success of temporarily transforming BBC Radio 4's FM network into a rolling radio news channel (nicknamed "SCUD FM") there were plans by the BBC to roll out a permanent rolling radio news network using the Radio 4 LW/MW network that was strongly resisted by British emigrants in continental Europe at the time, for whom listening to 198 kHz was (outside of the BBC World Service) their only link to domestic radio back home. Those plans fell by the wayside (though it did strongly influence the programming for "BBC 5 Live" when it was rebranded from BBC Radio 5) but shortly after Radio 4 became available via satellite (analogue at first) and then later on with internet radio, pretty much the same level of availability as those wanting to hear RTÉ Radio 1 in GB, and such listeners adapted to new platform that provided them with interference-free listening. When the BBC Radio services moved from a pan-European beam at 28 degrees east to the UK spot beam a number of years back (this was when the BBC severely curtailed their Red Button streams), it was a case for those unable to receive the stations in the spot beam to grin & bear it and having to move to internet streams to continue listening. When the 198 kHz transmissions essentially cease for good at some point in the future, you'll at best barely hear a murmur from Britions on continental Europe about its shutdown, as even quite elderly British pensioners that retired to the likes of rural France know how to access BBC services where they are. Something very similar goes for MW/LW shutdowns elsewhere in Europe - for example plenty of Francophones in Belgium & Switzerland listened to the French radio networks of France Inter, RTL, Europe 1 etc. where FM reception of such stations wasn't available to them, but they had to grin & bear it.

I suspect that the upcoming PTSN switch offs involving Open Eir (ROI) & Openreach (UK) will see a similarly very small but very stubborn element refusnikism, in refusing to accept having to change their landline phone service to VoIP provision simply because what they currently have "works" and don't want to give it up even where service providers are helping them to make the transfer over as seamless as possible. Some comments on the interwebs are convinced that they (Open Eir or Openreach) can't switch off their PSTN service if they say they want to remain on it - well, they can switch it off, they will (if not at first, eventually) and the refusniks will simply have a dead line if they stick with that attitude - and they can't say that they weren't warned.

SPDUB

Have EIR actually said they are closing the old network for phones?

I know it has been announced for the UK but I hadn't heard anything about EIR

rathfarnhamlad

The reg plate on the lorry cab in that photo is from 2018 so it could have been taken anything up to half a decade ago.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432534#Comment_120432534

Open Eir have announced a "copper switch off programme". Essentially by no longer using their metallic lines, all customers will be served by optical fibre instead and thus the PSTN network also ceases.

https://www.openeir.ie/copper-switch-off/

Openreach OTOH almost certainly won't get all of their current lines converted to optical fibre by the end of 2025, but they're still going to retire their PSTN - in areas where customers are still only served by a metallic line by that point they can still do broadband via VDSL or ADSL where available but all "landline" calls will either be done via a "master socket" on the modem/router or through the use of an ATA connected to it, with line conversion to optical fibre being done at some point in the future.

Tork

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432826#Comment_120432826

It'd be ironic if the people in that photo took their smartphones out of their pockets and made noises about the closure on social media...

CrabRevolution

The picture is from 2019, for the record.

Manchester’s Irish Community March to save RTE252 | Manchester Irish Festival

tinytobe

To me LW is already history. I wouldn't consider buying a LW radio anymore, that is if I would find one new for a reasonable price. It's just uncertain how long the LW transmitters will be on air. And 252 had a bit too much of downtime in recent months as well.

People didn't complain that much when analogue TV was switched off in favour of digital, - so why bother with an even older radio technology in the internet and smartphone age?

The Roberts R9993 seems to be the only radio with LW that's still widely available in the shops

Tork

People like to give out and trot out extreme cases. Paddy who's 95 and living in a bedsit after a lifetime of building the roads lives for Joe Duffy in the afternoon on the wireless. In reality, the vast majority of elderly people have long since moved over to other ways to hear RTE if that's what they want. I know very few elderly people who don't have a smartphone or a tablet. They mightn't be power users of their devices but they're able to use the bits they want. Recently I found out that my 80-year-old uncle in the UK was now listening avidly to Irish local radio stations because he'd found some app. These people are not helpless.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433354#Comment_120433354

I think Argos also had a radio with LW, both in black as well as in white on sale a while ago?

rathfarnhamlad

@tinytobe I believe you're referring to the Roberts model, which is as far as I am aware the only consumer-grade LW-compatible radio you can buy nowadays. I was told by someone in the know that that model is no longer in production & that retailers are just selling off existing inventory. I don't know whether or not that's actually true.

The more expensive multi-band receivers from the likes of Tecsun are able to tune to LW frequencies, as are professional grade comms receivers from Kenwood, Icom & so on but I can't see anyone justifying spending that kind of money with the sole purpose of listening to the LW band (not that there's much left there to listen to). The latter in particular are not exactly intuitive to use for people who are not technical. TV boxes & apps are probably more user-friendly.

When I bought a radio almost 30 years ago it had to have LW. The most recent radio I purchased last year was my Tecsun R-9012. I don't consider the lack of a LW function to be a shortcoming.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432534#Comment_120432534

This is very tangential to LW radio, but I’ll explain:

OpenEir have already quietly withdrawn most of the old Ericsson and Alcatel exchanges from the phone network. They’re being rapidly replaced by Nokia VoIP MSANs and soft switches. That project is a well under way, and due to be complete by the end of 2023.

If you still have a copper landline, you will still get a dial tone and a PSTN like service, but it’s now VoIP based. New connections will be VoIP over broadband only (without the copper wires and dial tones.) They’ll shrink the copper network and then eventually withdraw the MSANs.

That’s why you’re seeing warnings about alarm monitoring, which uses old analogue modems, becoming potentially unreliable as VoIP audio encoding sounds nice to human ears, but modems were designed for old A-log companding 8 kHz sampling, digital circuit switching and time division multiplexing.

This (aimed at the alarm industry) explains it in detail : https://www.g4s.com/en-ie/-/media/g4s/unitedkingdom/files/roi_pstn_switchover_presentation__final.ashx?la=en&hash=A93A712AFD337B849D761659636BD261

That’s another technology that’s quietly vanishing into the history books.

ford fiesta

It is time to get the tape recorders out, RTE radio stations will never be heard on AM radio again

Here's an interesting what if, IF RTE had agreed to lease 252 to another UK broadcaster in 2002, (8 were interested according to media reports at the time) would 567 still be on air ?

dxhound2005

What is not mentioned often, is why ex-pats in GB would not be entitled to the full output of RTE. Which would require more long wave transmitters. Or why our ex-pats in America and elsewhere were not entitled to the same. As mentioned in another post, anyone anywhere can now enjoy LMFM or Lyric or whatever other stations they want. Not by radio transmissions, but the other methods which were mostly not available before.

Geography means that 567 from Athlone/Tullamore, and 252 from Summerhill, have a certain footprint in GB and NI. But neither were satisfactory, even for full coverage of the island of Ireland. The people in London should have the same expectation for a useable service from RTE as what was available in Manchester. But they never got it. It would be a personal dereliction of duty for an Irish person in GB to have relied totally on long wave in recent years, and not equipped themselves with other technologies. If only to consume other Irish content not being transmitted on 252, such as local radio from their home county.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434665#Comment_120434665

I'm not sure if I said this earlier or not but I always found it strange that 567 was abandoned in favour of 252. Any coverage improvement in the UK was surely negated by the reduced power level compared to Atlantic 252. Even before the transmitter replacement RTE were still broadcasting Radio 1 at reduced power. The only thing I can think of (but I could be venturing into conspiracy territory here so I apologise if so) is if the local opposition to the construction of the site may have had something to do with it, as in, would they have been compelled to demolish it if left unused?

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433595#Comment_120433595

Most of the modern portable radios with the LW band on them produced in the last 10-15 years from Chinese brands like Tecsun are known for not having good LW performance. The XHDATA D-808 I have is notoriously deaf on the LW band - 252 kHz comes in okay, but BBC R4 on 198 kHz is barely listenable! I think it is down to the lack of a dedicated LW receiving coil on the ferrite rod aerial inside the radio causing such issues, falling back on to the single coil designed for MW reception on the ferrite rod. The best radio I have in my home for LW reception is a Grundig Ocean Boy 330 portable that I got back in the mid-90's, back in an era when LW reception in many parts of Europe still mattered.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435306#Comment_120435306

I've no firm evidence for this, but I remember back in the mid-00's hearing from some Irish people in England that reception of 567 kHz in many parts of England was not as good as it once was, suggesting that the power at Tullamore had been turned down from its potential peak of 500kW. At the time I could see RTÉ's reasoning for closing down their MW outlets for Radio 1, there was really no point in duplicating the service on both MW & LW when both would cover the island of Ireland, and that the LW signal had the capability to travel farther where things like ground conductivity and radiated power are the same (or at least very similar). 252 kHz also allowed the station to reach London & SE England better than 567 kHz could, as the latter had for around a couple of decades been interfered with by a local station in London on 558 kHz - reception of 252 kHz still wasn't brilliant, but with a decent receiver it was usually listenable. Meanwhile closer to home, Radio 1's FM network would have largely been seen as "complete" alongside additional methods of listening to the station being available - there might have been an arguable case of retaining the 729 kHz transmitter in Cork after Tullamore's shut down on the basis of co-channel interference on 252 kHz from Algeria, but I'd guess that the spots in 729's core coverage area that didn't have at least a listenable FM signal (if any) were likely not justifiable enough to keep the MW TX there going.

Ironically on the flip side, the closure of RTÉ Radio 1 on 252 kHz will be welcomed by a lot of Algerian immigrants in northern France, for whom receiving Algeria Channel 3 on the same frequency is often hampered by RTÉ being a pest for them.

RTE should just run a major campaign on LW during the ad breaks giving a serious 'how to' guide for people who wish to listen in the UK, and it should focus on the free options i.e. FreeSat channel numbers and how to tune in online via various apps and websites.

Obviously they should mention Sky and Virigin too but there's a false impression being created that you have to get a pay tv subscription to receive RTE Radio in the UK. You don't and it's quite possible to tune it in without any extra equipment other than an old Sky dish, if your TV (as many do) contains a satellite tuner or you can pick up a Freesat compatible STB pretty cheaply for a basic one.

They should also stress that the audio quality is VASTLY better than LW.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435125#Comment_120435125

The 252 was a usable service for Atlantic 252 as well as the RTE until they reduced the power of the transmitter. Then the signal was abysmal in London, and even worse at night time in Kent and on the South coast of England. Especially at night time Algeria dominated on 252.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435596#Comment_120435596

The last radios actively marketed for LW in the UK focused on Cricket fans and the fact that BBC Radio 4 would cover Cricket live. That was a while ago, ever since that time, there is no active marketing for LW in the UK anymore.

The Tecsun is sadly known for being deaf in many ways, plus the FM band is not very sensitive either. Not a good radio to recommend.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094256/#Comment_120094256

Taken from the thread in the Terrestrial forum, the 2003 All Ireland hurling final was the last time Clarkstown/Summerhill ran at full power.

It's pretty anoraky that RTE will cease broadcasting on LW almost exactly 20 years to the day that they were first heard there

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/57831/rte-radio-1-on-252-now

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435667#Comment_120435667

Regarding the historical reception of RTE Radio 1 on 567 Khz in London :

There was certainly a time when it was a reliable receiving option in London, but back in the mid 1980's, it suffered splatter from the offshore pirate station Laser 558, operating beside it on 558 khz. The UK Government cited the 'interference' caused to RTE as one of the reasons for taking action against Laser and Radio Caroline. When Laser closed in 1985, Radio Caroline changed frequency from 963 Khz to 558 and the reception problems for RTE continued, as did the 'concerns' expressed by the UK Department of Trade and Industry.

Ironically then, in 1990, the UK Radio Authority, issued a licence to a new multi-ethnic service, Spectrum Radio, to operate in the London area ... on 558 Khz, so causing a greater degree of interference to local RTE reception than had previously been caused by the offshore pirate stations.

Since 2000, the ethnic station Punjab Radio has been operating on 558 Khz in the London area.

Did the London reception situation form any consideration in favouring Long Wave for diaspora servicing over the more crowded Medium Wave band?

What a lot of people don't remember is that RTE were being lobbied as far back as the late 90s to replace Atlantic 252 with an new radio service for the diaspora. Michael D Higgins and DCUs Colum Kenny were involved with that campaign. When Teamtalk went bust after just 6 months in 2002 their wish came true but RTE rather than doing a whole new service just relayed Radio 1 which left 567 surplus to requirement

I have been reading the old thread from when it was originally going to be closed and my oh my there was a lot of heated debate.

Technology has really moved along a lot since then, particularly broadband and mobile broadband.

That wasn’t the case in 2003. Within a few years most households will be connected to full fibre or equivalent on cable and 5G will continue to get faster and cheaper. You can take very high speed broadband as much for granted as a phone line in 2003.

The LW arguments made sense 20 years ago but at this stage it’s a bit like arguing in favour of steam trains.

The growing lack of availability of LW capable receivers is also a huge issue. Older radios are inevitably going to reach the end of their lives and newer ones are focused on DAB and FM. Even where they support AM, it’s often only medium wave.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428952#Comment_120428952

There was another opt out service on 612 in the late 90s or early 2000s. It was a service for refugees or immigrants if I recall.

KildareP

It'll be an end of an era but such is the nature of progress.

I suspect RTE will let next week pass by quietly, they've reduced the power so significantly that reception in recent months is extremely variable even when I can clearly see the mast in the distance! I suspect they'll be glad to be rid of it once and for all and so no attention or fanfare will be drawn to it closing like was done with MW.

Is it true that they are to keep the mast and transmitter setup otherwise intact though?

Is it still running 150kw by day or has that been reduced?

webwayz

In 2019 and 2021 RTE said it was committed to the service when complaints were made about outages for maintenance.

In the spirit of the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement, RTE is obliged to make its services available in the North. Following the closure of RTE on Medium Wave, some listeners in the North of Ireland who were not in range of an FM transmitter, only had LW to access Radio 1. Although RnaG is on Freeview in the North, RTE Radio 1 is NOT.

They had also said they were looking at DAB licences in the UK which could eventually replace this service for the Diaspora, although the dialogue with Ofcom didn't seem to work out.

RTE has an obligation to broadcast particularly to the elderly Irish Community in the Britain, as well throughout the Island, until there is a Free-to-Air alternative, available they should not switch off the service, and not be making spurious excuses to.

dxhound2005

It was a poor effort to carry out that obligation. Just one radio service, not even available at all times of day and in all areas of Britain. And not available at all in America or Australia. Now technology has made every service available everywhere.

The diaspora had an equal obligation to provide themselves with a Long Wave radio. Now they can use technology they have already, or get the technology. I don't know much about Alexa type devices, but I believe they can be portable inside a house just like a radio.

webwayz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442821#Comment_120442821

They seem to turn its power down at night.

The Irish in Britain organsied a petition last time, they didn't this time? However some others have started a petition, to postpone shutdown until the non-internet radio alternatives are in place.

https://www.change.org/p/don-t-cut-off-the-irish-in-britain-postpone-rte-s-longwave-252-shutdown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445718#Comment_120445718

Déjà vu has kicked in