RTE radio1 LW

What a lot of people don't remember is that RTE were being lobbied as far back as the late 90s to replace Atlantic 252 with an new radio service for the diaspora. Michael D Higgins and DCUs Colum Kenny were involved with that campaign. When Teamtalk went bust after just 6 months in 2002 their wish came true but RTE rather than doing a whole new service just relayed Radio 1 which left 567 surplus to requirement

I have been reading the old thread from when it was originally going to be closed and my oh my there was a lot of heated debate.

Technology has really moved along a lot since then, particularly broadband and mobile broadband.

That wasn’t the case in 2003. Within a few years most households will be connected to full fibre or equivalent on cable and 5G will continue to get faster and cheaper. You can take very high speed broadband as much for granted as a phone line in 2003.

The LW arguments made sense 20 years ago but at this stage it’s a bit like arguing in favour of steam trains.

The growing lack of availability of LW capable receivers is also a huge issue. Older radios are inevitably going to reach the end of their lives and newer ones are focused on DAB and FM. Even where they support AM, it’s often only medium wave.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428952#Comment_120428952

There was another opt out service on 612 in the late 90s or early 2000s. It was a service for refugees or immigrants if I recall.

KildareP

It'll be an end of an era but such is the nature of progress.

I suspect RTE will let next week pass by quietly, they've reduced the power so significantly that reception in recent months is extremely variable even when I can clearly see the mast in the distance! I suspect they'll be glad to be rid of it once and for all and so no attention or fanfare will be drawn to it closing like was done with MW.

Is it true that they are to keep the mast and transmitter setup otherwise intact though?

Is it still running 150kw by day or has that been reduced?

webwayz

In 2019 and 2021 RTE said it was committed to the service when complaints were made about outages for maintenance.

In the spirit of the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement, RTE is obliged to make its services available in the North. Following the closure of RTE on Medium Wave, some listeners in the North of Ireland who were not in range of an FM transmitter, only had LW to access Radio 1. Although RnaG is on Freeview in the North, RTE Radio 1 is NOT.

They had also said they were looking at DAB licences in the UK which could eventually replace this service for the Diaspora, although the dialogue with Ofcom didn't seem to work out.

RTE has an obligation to broadcast particularly to the elderly Irish Community in the Britain, as well throughout the Island, until there is a Free-to-Air alternative, available they should not switch off the service, and not be making spurious excuses to.

dxhound2005

It was a poor effort to carry out that obligation. Just one radio service, not even available at all times of day and in all areas of Britain. And not available at all in America or Australia. Now technology has made every service available everywhere.

The diaspora had an equal obligation to provide themselves with a Long Wave radio. Now they can use technology they have already, or get the technology. I don't know much about Alexa type devices, but I believe they can be portable inside a house just like a radio.

webwayz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442821#Comment_120442821

They seem to turn its power down at night.

The Irish in Britain organsied a petition last time, they didn't this time? However some others have started a petition, to postpone shutdown until the non-internet radio alternatives are in place.

https://www.change.org/p/don-t-cut-off-the-irish-in-britain-postpone-rte-s-longwave-252-shutdown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445718#Comment_120445718

Déjà vu has kicked in

TAFKAlawhec

I'm unaware of RTÉ having any formal "...obligation to broadcast particularly to the elderly Irish Community in the Britain..." other than to try and make an effort to reach the Irish diaspora worldwide, which they can say they satisfy though their radio stations being on the WWW. Coverage in Northern Ireland is a different geopolitical issue, but I suspect that like those in GB, those unable to access RTÉ Radio 1 on the FM band will have to find alternative means to listen once 252 closes. When the closure of 567 kHz was announced 15 years ago, there was some lively discussion in NI about coverage of the station especially in the likes of Belfast city centre where most listeners there were on MW (an eventual effort was made to change the frequency of Radio 1 at Clermont Carn to be changed from 95.2 to 87.8 to allow for better potential reception with less interference). Otherwise, there was a report in the Irish News a few days about the closure, but nothing much about any political "outrage" in NI that 252 is closing down - for now.

I'm not 100% sure on this (and if I can be proven wrong, that's great) but my understanding of British radio & audio licencing law is that an English or predominantly English radio station whose production is based outside the UK cannot be licenced in the UK, and that this not only applies to LW, MW, SW, FM but also DAB and also DTT - hence why the Irish language Raidio na Gaeltachta can be carried on the RNI_1 DTT multpliex in NI, but RTÉ's English language stations cannot, and why there's been ongoing discussions to amending UK radio law to allow for the terrestrial broadcasting of overseas stations like RTÉ Radio 1.

As it is, there is a free-to-air option in GB and a lot of Europe for that matter to listen to RTÉ Radio 1 - it's via satellite at 28 degrees east.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439762#Comment_120439762

Also worth noting that when Capital Radio launched in London in 1973, for around 18 months of so they broadcast on 557 kHz themselves (RTÉ Radio 1 being on 566 kHz at the time) which I'm sure didn't help RTÉ Radio reception matters then - the 558 kHz frequency was formally allocated to the UK for use in London in GE75 IIRC, so they clearly had ambitions to use it at a later time.

dxhound2005

I'd say that Radio Ulster on 1341 kHz was being received well in parts of GB. Just like we can get Radio Scotland and Radio Wales from GB transmitters. There could have been lots of Ulster people on the "mainland" who depended on it. But the BBC closed it down, and I never heard of any protests.

Radio Wales was my go-to station for quite a while, both at home and on the move, via 882 kHz on the medium wave. Now that's no longer receivable in my area via traditional means, so I listen on via my satellite TV box nowadays. Not exactly portable but does have crystal clear audio. Win some, lose some, as they say.

I listened to Absolute on 1215 for a while before I grew tired of the constant adverts. Gone altogether now, sometimes I listen in via satellite, that is until the ads start to annoy me & change to something else.

Manx Radio I still listen to quite a lot. If they ever decide to discontinue their medium wave service though I'll be stuck with listening online but c'est la vie I guess.

Now, roll on the 14th when I can tune to Algeria 3 on 252 with no other stations in the background & get my groove on!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445718#Comment_120445718

The people who signed from the UK last time are probably most dead, bluntly. The people who this service was being justified for emigrated to work in the 40s and 50s and there are very, very few of those left.

If they could actually be identified it would be cheaper to arrange Freesat installs for each of them personally at this stage.

elperello

I agree most of the 40's and 50's emigrants are no longer with us but emigration was still a fact of life through the 60's and into the 70's in poorer areas.

Then there was another wave during the recession of the 80's.

Many of those who left were poorly educated and didn't do too well for themselves.

They are often in bad enough accomodation and on low pensions now.

We didn't do much for them when they were young and it would be nice to make some effort to keep them in touch now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445718#Comment_120445718

There already is a non-internet alternative in the form of FreeSat. It works the other way around too - I use it myself for listening to UK radio that I can no longer get on MW/LW or wasn't on that platform in the first place.

I wonder how many British ex-pats living in West Cork or the South of France will kick up a fuss when BBC R4 is no longer available on LW (probably not that far away)?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450081#Comment_120450081

Most of those who emigrated in the 60s onwards are able to use a satellite or cable box, or a basic phone that can run apps.

They probably don't know where to get a replacement LW radio, though.

Keeping the LW service on air for the notional 70 year old who can work a LW radio - not the easiest of items - but cannot work any replacement option at all is not a worthwhile use of funds.

And if you want people to feel bad about downtrodden emigrants, there's plenty of dirt poor Irish illegal immigrants in the US who are getting old now too - but we don't have SW transmissions to try and provide low fidelity radio services to them.

elperello

I think the LW discussion is over, it's going and that's that.

You are correct most of them either can figure out the alternatives or know someone who can help.

It's those who can't that we might reach out to.

I'm not trying to make people feel bad just adding some context to the discussion.

Tork

I agree with the suggestion that listeners should be made aware that this shutdown is coming, and be informed of other ways to access RTE radio. But that's as far as it should go. It makes sense that the mast should be shut down now that there are so many alternatives. If we pandered to people who refuse to move with the times, we'd still have RTE TV broadcasting on analogue and 088 phones. I doubt there are many people in the UK who are so badly off they don't have a smartphone at this point. It's hard to exist without owning one how, and in recent years they've become the de-facto handset for people. They're cheap to run too.

The question is, how did what seems to be just a small loud fringe group manage to pull off cancelling the LW closure all those years ago? They are trying it again but it doesn't look like the press or Irish charities in Britain have given them any attention this time.

Antenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449617#Comment_120449617

Many would expect that there would be an "off-grid" (non-internet) availability of RTE Radio 1 in at least Northern Ireland (if not any parts of GB), and a sizeable area of NI cannot receive it on FM. A large percentage of radio listening is in cars, even in the case of retired people (DVB-S or DVB-T is no good in cars!). The Spirit Radio AM transmitter in Co. Monaghan on 549 has been off the air for about 6 months, if it is the case Spirit is gone for good from AM, perhaps, as a temporary measure with LW closure RTE could arrange with the owner of this transmitter to carry Radio 1 on 549kHz (or 567) as it will cover the areas of NI which cannot receive RTE R1 on FM. Maybe RTE R1 can become available later in the year on DAB in NI, or FM within NI (where unavailable now), and any temporary MW arrangement could then be switched off.

dxhound2005

When it was 567 there was overspill reception in parts of the UK. But still not good reception everywhere on the island of Ireland. 252 was set up originally with the intention to be a commercial service targeting parts of GB. Looking at a market in Manchester and Liverpool and the surrounds, but knowing that the big concentration of the population in the South East was out of reach in practical terms. So far no extra spending needed by RTE to cover anywhere outside of the Republic.

When the 252 commercial venture failed and RTE went there instead of 567, the overspill probably was a bit stronger. But again no impact on TV Licence payers. To provide any service specifically to cover the North, or parts of Britain beyond what FM can do, will costs more money. And RTE must have already spent extra money on their online activities, which have the bonus of not just covering the Republic, but most of the outside world.

If they are going back on MW, or going to have transmitters in NI or GB, it will cost money. Politics here mean that no government is likely to allow an increase in the Licence fee. So where would the money come from? All along it was politics which kept LW going, because RTE wanted to close it down for years. Many might expect there to be an off grid service to NI and GB, but they probably expect other people to pay for it.

Antenna

But they are already paying for TV transmission within northern Ireland with the "mini-mux", providing RTE and TG4 (and as mentioned also carrying RnaG as the only Irish radio service).

There is also the Saorsat service. How much is that costing RTE per year for it seems a tiny number of users?

I have asked people in the TV trade do they know anyone using Saorsat, and the answer is no, RTE viewers in blackspots areas for Saorview have sky. Now maybe Saorsat does have users and who depend on it, but I have not heard of any. (The negatives of Saorsat are for another thread and have been discussed elsewhere in the past)

back to NI, I even remember several years ago, RTE radio had for a time a freephone number for callers in northern Ireland to RTE Radio shows (Liveline etc) , yet callers in the republic had to pay!

dxhound2005

I think it was mentioned in this thread or another one that the UK politicians do not want foreign broadcasters in English language on their territory. The politics went as far as it could probably in getting what was inserted in the Good Friday agreement.

"The Good Friday Agreement provided that the British Government would work with the relevant British and Irish broadcasting authorities to make TG4 more widely available in Northern Ireland. Following the switchover to digital television in 2012, TG4’s coverage has reached 94% in Northern Ireland. RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta is also being provided on the Northern Ireland Freeview DTT network"

Plenty of overspill reception of TV and radio into the North, before digital and since. But even though analogue was never 100% coverage in the Republic, a decision was made to give better infill with Saorsat to the low signal terrestrial areas. Sky doesn't come for free. Still not able to do 100% of course. I wouldn't judge Saorsat on what some people said to you. None of the discussion addresses what should be done for the diaspora in America, or even in London.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450155#Comment_120450155

It's not really adding context though is it?. It's the same line we've heard over and over.

Ever since the discussion on closing 252 began the only counterargument has been to service the emigrant who left Ireland but kept the country afloat through remittances, but who now lives destitute and alone in the UK, whose only possession is an LW radio, who is incapable of even the most basic use of any technology developed after 1990, and who has nobody in their lives who could possibly help them on this, and whose sole joy in life is to listen to a low quality broadcast of Radio 1 (assuming it hasn't been drowned out by Algeria).

I would suspect the real audience for LW Radio 1 is tiny. When you work it out on the overall cost of running the service, which has to be in the hundreds of thousands a year, it really stops adding up.

If RTE Radio 1 on UK DAB becomes a more viable possibility it should be pursued though. It could also, like Channel 4 here, carry UK ad breaks or even regionalised ones if it were licensed in the UK. That would probably make it pay for itself. I don't think the audiences it would pick up would be all that tiny. A lot of it is very high quality radio that would have a fairly broad reach, not just a diaspora market.

If it were done right, it really can't be that expensive to do. I think we've a tendency for this projects to grow legs, arms, feet, expensive shoes and end up being gold plated and costing an absolute fortune.

The content is all there. It just needs to be put on a server and made complaint with Ofcom rules, which as far as I am aware as a little more conservative in some areas. You might have to time shift some of it to later in the day to comply with watersheds and watch out for strong language etc earlier in the day which might mean some of the Live Line content and documentaries maybe some drama etc might need to go on a bit later and you could find there are rights issues for certain sports coverage, but it shouldn't be a MASSIVE deal to do.

You could easily include a few UK specific programmes - nothing particularly expensive, but you could imagine something aimed at the Irish Diaspora, maybe as an alternative to Live Line.

If RTE Radio could do a UK channel that could wash its own face financially, it should be doing it.

Stone Age LW transmissions aren't really much use to anyone in 2023 though.

dxhound2005

RTE radio share of the audience is always under 50% on the JNLR. Obviously that is still less for any individual RTE station. There was no alternative for the diaspora before, but now they can get local and other Irish stations by the new technologies. Just like at home, many of them could prefer to listen to a non RTE station. Concentrating on providing just one station in the new world of media, is ignoring the other choices that are there already.

It's a bit narrow though to just focus on the Irish diaspora alone. RTE Radio produces a ton of quality speech and music content. If you packaged it up for a UK audience, possibly throw in a bit of arts and culture content from Lyric FM, it might find itself an audience in the UK that was a bit broader than just the Irish community.

There's no reason an Irish community couldn't be served by an interesting, intelligent speech / culture / current affairs / documentary focused station that was mostly automated.

Also no reason RTE News couldn't do a few UK specific reads per day with a couple of packages from NI and British based correspondents for such a station.

Just keep costs low, use a lot of automation and reuse existing content from RTE Radio 1 and Lyric etc.

The other one that's never been explored is a partnership with BBC Radio Ulster to do joint UK wide service using their studios in Belfast as a licensing base... It would be quite symbolic as a GFA based project too.

It could be like a much less expensive, radio equivalent of the French/German Arte tv station. Just give it a similarly neutral name and put in content from both broadcasters.

I just think there's been a lack of imagination around some of this, and there are a lot of ways it could be achieved either commercially or as a purely public service broadcaster project.

RTÉ is quasi commercial, so has plenty of experience of ad sales too, unlike BBC.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450562#Comment_120450562

Geographically, RTÉ FM Radio coverage in Northern Ireland is actually pretty extensive - however where the main gaps exist in poor or non-existent coverage are in quite populated areas like the Greater Belfast area (coverage is very variable), parts of East Down like Newcastle where the Mournes provide an effective shield, and much of the east and north Antrim coastlines.

In terms of helping service most of those areas, with at least a fixed broadcast option other than satellite, putting RTÉ Radio 1 on the RNI_1 DTT multiplex would appear to be the easiest option though I think this isn't technically allowed under UK law at present (figures I've seen for the availability for either Saorview or RNI_1 DTT reception in NI put it at about 93% of Northern Irish homes, bigger than that whom are covered by the three commercial multiplexes (SDN, Arqiva A & Arqiva B) in NI). What's actually allowed aside, placing a radio stream on either the BBCA or BBCB DTT muxes could also be considered if maximum reach was desired.

For DAB, the current NI DAB ensemble is already full for services even if AAC was an option. If UK radio broadcasting law was amended to allow the likes of RTÉ to broadcast Radio 1 terrestrially in the UK, then a place on the Belfast small-scale DAB multiplex (which has had a licence awarded and should be in service at some point in the future) would appear to be an obvious place to serve the city.

I had thought about the 549 kHz transmitter at Carrickroe - since Spirit Radio is essentially licenced as a MW service with low-power FM "fillers", allowing Spirit to relinquish their MW transmitting obligations would be a minefield for the BAI, but where this allowed and gave RTÉ an opportunity to use the TX to serve NI audiences outside of FM coverage, I'd reckon an ERP of 5kW or even less could be of use as a "nightlight" service for a couple of years pending any potential terrestrial distribution within NI. At least a 5kW transmission (perhaps shut off between 0000-0600 as well) would be much less painful on the electric bill compared to the 150/60kW output at Clarkestown.

But in saying all that, all the above are hypotheticals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449690#Comment_120449690

From my memories of visiting England during the 00's, 1341 kHz was essentially impossible to hear during the daytime in London, just a carrier & faint signal at best. It was stronger in Liverpool, though not as strong as one might suspect - not to mention that also in some parts of the city the station was interfered with by a 1W student radio station on 1350 kHz run by Liverpool Hope University Student Union. RTÉ Radio 1 in Liverpool was easily stronger in comparison.

When the closure of BBC Radio Ulster on MW was announced, there were a few patches in NI where listening to it on FM was impossible or close to it and MW was the only reliable terrestrial method, mostly at the Antrim Glens Coast around the villages of Cushendall & Waterfoot (where the best reception of BBC National FM services are from Scottish TXs), but the amount of the population unable to receive even a listenable FM or DAB signal in NI was thought to be (IIRC) less than 10,000 people, so there wasn't good justification to keep the 100kW monster at Lisnagarvey going for that potential amount of people - they could have reduced the power, but it would have essentially served the Glens coastline only to any real extent, other balckspot areas would have been able to be served by the 1kW 873 Enniskillen TX. That also doesn't take into account that BBC Radio Ulster was still doing split programming, mainly GAA coverage on the MW network (this was then transferred to being broadcast on BBC Radio Foyle on DAB & DTT). In the end it went off with a whimper.