Evidence that wealth tax doesn't work

Thelonious Monk

Really this would require world cooperation so billionaires couldn't move their funds around to avoid taxes. The OECD and the EU successfully pushed for a minimum 15% corporation tax on companies, surely they can do something similar for the stupidly wealthy. Even then, there'll always be a few rogue countries willing to take their money and tax them a pittance.

HerrKuehn

In a democracy everyone gets 2 votes, one at the ballot and one with your feet. I have to laugh at Brid Smith there recently complaining that wealthy individuals are threatening to leave or move assets abroad if a more left wing government comes in. It seems to be a thing with the left that they think if the rules are changed, everyone just continues on behaving as before, which is not the case. Plenty on the left would cut their nose off to spite their face and you can see that with some of the comments on here saying the wealthy can leave if they want. The thing is, they will care if some high earners don't want to live here anymore, particularly doctors.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465447#Comment_120465447

Doctors get paid very well in Ireland already, is it the highest in Europe? The new public/private deal consultants have is crazy money. They're not going to be leaving because they pay a few more % in tax.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465460#Comment_120465460

Doctors have much better options elsewhere. They are paid reasonably well, there are places that pay better who are calling out for doctors. The conditions they work in here are an absolute shambles. Increasing tax will just be another push factor.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465467#Comment_120465467

Yeah but elsewhere isn't home. Pretty much every doctor goes to work abroad as they can work wherever they want, and they can gain invaluable experience in Australian and UK hospitals that they might not get in Ireland. There are stats out there somewhere (I can't remember where) to show the majority of them come back. Anecdotally speaking I know quite a few doctors through someone close to me, they have all worked abroad, and they are all now back in Ireland. I know some in the UK that really want to come back here but can't find suitable positions for now.

The conditions aren't a shambles for all doctors, our A&E is in bad shape and juniors work mad hours but consultants get a good deal here and our hospitals aren't as bad as people make out.

It's not about the money for everyone believe it or not, most people want to be near their family and friends and what they're familiar with. Otherwise every one of them would be in Australia. And how much money do you need, 200k as a consultant or whatever it is they're getting now, is enough for anyone.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465484#Comment_120465484

Most doctors are not consultants. The working conditions include things like ridiculous shifts. The health service is hanging together by threads at the moment. A lot of nurses (not particularly well paid) are moving out of hospitals and into private GP practices. You are absolutely deluded if you think things are going well in the health service.

Of course not everyone is going to leave, it will be harder to fill positions though. People who can work remotely from other EU countries will start to do that in greater numbers. The issue in Ireland isn't that the tax take is hugely out of whack with other EU countries, it is that our state sector does a miserable job in providing services. So basically we get very little for what we pay.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465447#Comment_120465447

I know. Its like they think that they own the money that these people own and they are entitled to it somehow.

I can think of a lot of countries that if I was that rich I would be off to with my money and wouldnt feel the least bit guilty about it.

Its the same craic with people complaining that rich sports persons are living in Monaco. Why wouldnt they. If Monaco suits them and they have the money to make it happen, why not.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465503#Comment_120465503

You become a consultant or a GP or whatever when you have finished your medical training. Otherwise you're still a junior or registrar. Consultants and GPs do not work ridiculous shifts. For consultants it's the odd weekend and maybe once a week on call.

I don't think nurses will be leaving because of a wealth tax.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465556#Comment_120465556

We already find it difficult to retain doctors due to the conditions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/better-work-conditions-sole-solution-to-hospital-doctor-shortage-1.4841427

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-medics-abroad-wont-return-to-poor-working-conditions-in-ireland-doctor-warns-1349051.html

https://www.thejournal.ie/junior-doctors-burnout-overtime-working-conditions-5743137-Apr2022/

60, 70, 80 hour work weeks.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465576#Comment_120465576

yeah that's juniors, they have it tough but they're not going to be leaving because of a wealth tax, is all i'm saying. conditions are good for consultants and the money is ridiculous, at least the ones i know.

and regardless of conditions anyway, all doctors go abroad eventually, but the vast majority are coming back. i'll dig it out later but it's 80.something % come back i think.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465484#Comment_120465484

I have a friend who is a GP. Himself and his wife (also a GP) and kids last year moved to Australia.

He had worked there for a few years back in the 2000s. She had a practice with her sister in Dublin.

They decided to move just because now its better there for them. Her sister joined up with Centric after she left. She too is considering moving to Australia now.

Ive another friend whos wife is a Dentist. They have decided to emigrate too and will most likely be gone by the end of this year.

All of them were telling me that lots of people came back to Ireland as it was home but now the mood has changed to having a better life for them and their kids abroad. I can see how non english speaking countries might not be attractive, but there are certainly a big pool of attractive counties to medical staff out there still. Ireland is probably the least attractive to them.

My own GP is in the middle of a year off. The last time I was in with her she told me it had all got too much and she needed a break. She said she was taking a year off, but might make that longer if she could.

And then try getting an appointment with a doctor now if you are sick. The whole house of cards is blowing in the wind.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465582#Comment_120465582

and yet we have difficulty filling consultant positions in our hospitals. A further left government would not only be looking at wealth taxes, they would be looking at increasing income taxes, which are already at a marginal rate of 52%. I am just making the point that Ireland is already rinsing higher earners tax wise (in return for the services provided in particular, small 1 size fits all state pension, need to pay for GP, dentist, medication etc).

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465611#Comment_120465611

Well there's not a lot we can do about the weather, lifestyle, outdoors etc. that Australia offers that Ireland doesn't. If that's what floats someone's boat, they're gonna go there, regardless of wealth taxes.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465644#Comment_120465644

They would be pull factors, there are also push factors like the working conditions in Irish hospitals and level of taxation.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465665#Comment_120465665

ok well doctors tend to come from wealthy backgrounds in the first place, they get paid silly amounts once they're qualified as consultants and they're not the ones working in horrible conditions like juniors and nurses, and extra taxes will not be the reason they leave their family and friends behind. but that's just like my opinion man, etc.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465691#Comment_120465691

They aren't paid silly amount for the amount of skill and experience they have. We might see anyway in a couple of years, although I expect SF will change very little as it is all about speaking out of both sides of their mouths, they say whatever is "popular" but will realise they can't just start loading on more taxes in my opinion. Anyway, doctors are just one example, another would tech workers who are quiet mobile.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465722#Comment_120465722

I agree yes, they deserve it more than anyone, but you don't get into medicine for the money, there are far easier ways to earn lots of money if you're smart enough to be a doctor in the first place. They care about our healthcare system more than anyone and are the hardest grafters out there.

I wouldn't worry too much about SF, like every other party they wont do anything to rock the boat too much.

Starfire20

it's basically a 0.01% tax hike on the super rich.

that's what they're complaining about....the absolute leeches that they are

they just want to hoard more and more

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465320#Comment_120465320

SF are in favour of increasing taxes for everyone just not yours

Its quite the trick which will probably work once

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465739#Comment_120465739

I wouldn't rely on the "green jersey" effect too much. People were out protesting about paying minimal water charges and that was driven by the left. It isn't about contributing to something better in Ireland, that should be clear by now.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465752#Comment_120465752

I did find some of the examples in the guardian article crazy.

Moving half way across a continent to a place away from your family and friends, where they speak a different language, in order to escape a tax that would basically take your net worth down from 1,500,000,000 to 1,494,000,000.

The article says around 30 people have left the country, and mentions it cost them tax revenue but it wasn't totally clear whether or not this is more than offset by the presumably hundreds of others who have remained in the country and paid the increased tax.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465011#Comment_120465011

Give over. Go find a better excuse for your SF hobby horse. You are way out of your depth on this one.