Picard 3x10- 'The Last Generation' ~~ { ** Spoilers Within ** }

corkie

https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/star-trek-picard-cut-cameos.html

It’s not surprising that Terry Matalas was hoping that the Star Trek: Picard finale would include a Kate Mulgrew cameo for the scene in which Tuvok (Tim Russ) promotes Seven of Nine (Jeri Ryan) to Captain.

.....

I have to admit to a bit of theorizing with Matalas’ mention of Star Trek: Picard “at one point” featuring a Garret Wang cameo as Harry Kim. Before the penultimate episode revealed Admiral Shelby (Elizabeth Dennehy) to be the Enterprise-F’s commanding officer, I predicted four possible choices with Kim being my top prediction and Shelby the number two. With Matalas revealing that he actually did want an appearance from Kim

Money Rules! :-(

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501919#Comment_120501919

This, so Picard who was weirdly fostering a romance with her visual clone, then her, etc. Decides, f*ck her, I've got me old girlfriend back so to hell with her.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508501#Comment_120508501

Real interesting part:

There is a scene in which they found Ro Laren in the dungeons of the Intrepid with Tuvok and that she had survived we weren’t able to pull off.

So, Ro could be around for Legacies if it gets made?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508658#Comment_120508658

Even worse is how easy Riker forgot his still alive child. He was willing to die at Picards side as if it "is where he belongs" and he has a child at home.

Worf too but we know he doesn't give a shyte about his child.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508708#Comment_120508708

Dying at Picard's side would save the Federation and almost certainly his son along with it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508996#Comment_120508996

His son is with the Klingons so he is fine anyway. Not that Worf cares.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509056#Comment_120509056

I meant Riker.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120505805#Comment_120505805

Season 1 and 2 were as bad as Disco, only saved by slightly better characters / actors (and there were some terrible characters and actors in Picard, just to indicate how poor Disco was). Yes you are right, if Disco done the same as Picard Season 3, it would be sh1t because Burnham would do long boring dialogues, there would be long sweeping shots of the characters looking at one person rather than doing their jobs, instead of at least Picard having action bits as filler, and each Disco character not having as much charisma as even the weaker characters in Picard season 3. Jack probably being one of the weakest main characters (excluding Rafi but I imagine if I'd never seen 1 + 2 she would be better). As Picard went, it is watchable sci fi if you ignore season 1 and 2. Oddly they might be considered slightly realistic in the amount of pointless sub plots which barely made sense but also went nowhere, they had good bits but were overall bad. Picards weakest characters were more fleshed out than any in Discovery with the exception of the cyborg who in one episode achieved a simply fabulous bit of not only science fiction but television in general. The head engineer in Disco is also a good character but only in that she is a good actress and that may be one of the defining differences between the shows weaker seasons.

Also, what the f*** is with this word memberberries, god help me, I hate that word more than I hate Disco. Nostalgia is a fine word, use it, memberberries sounds like a ******** ******** teenager whose entire education has consisted of tiktok and youtube shorts with no real world interaction.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509141#Comment_120509141

That would be daughter then who we saw in S1. His son is the dead one.

And you are wrong in what you said. They had already blown up the Borg ship so Riker could have been saved and the Federation saved. He choose dying with Picard for no reason over going home to his daughter.

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509241#Comment_120509241

Matalas said that Kestra is at Starfleet Academy at the time, but that would probably warrant a mention of her even more.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509152#Comment_120509152

Memberberries is from a South Park episode about how series like Star Wars and Star Trek are just regurgitating old shte to sell stuff to our aging generation who have hit the nostalgia stage of life

Again not arguing the PIC 3 is as bad as Disco or PIC 2. I would say PIC 1 is as good plot wise (plot wise not any other stuff) as this season.

My point is and always has been that when Matalas gets his next show there will be no TNG crew or Starfleet museum or Enterprise D and when you strip them out this season was just bad plots an ugly 23rd century ship that as stuck in to canonise some extended universe design (they love doing that now) and loads of mystery boxes within mystery boxes. Without all the TNG stuff it will essentially be PIC 2 which Matalas also made.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509260#Comment_120509260

Ya he has a habit of filling in a lot of blanks on Twitter but what's said on Twitter means fek all in terms of the show.

I shouldn't have to follow someone on Twitter to retroactively make sense of a poor plot.

ixoy

Isn't part of Pic 2's issues down to Patrick Stewart not wanting all the cast re-united immediately and having a degree of creative control?

Personally, I think Matalas has proven his mettle. Not so much necessarily in the major plot arc, but by realising that a proper crew means everything - not just one person - has value and contributes. Nostalgia helped, sure, but some of the fun banter and character beats would never have made it in Disco's showroom.

What I'd hope is the Legacy series would be allowed do more episode storylines and not drag out plot lines. 'Strange New Worlds' works much better with the traditional story model.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509314#Comment_120509314

Or do what DS9 did. One overarching storyline but every episode told its own story within that.

The current serialisation method is every episode being a cliffhanger for the next. No internal closure at all.

That works for a binge model, where you consume them all at once, but if they're insisting on weekly drops then it's a bit tiresome

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509314#Comment_120509314

I don't know about season 2 but Stewart had some demands about season 1 which were no Starfleet uniforms or ships for Picard.

On season 2 from Wikipedia

"Matalas and Goldsman replaced first-season showrunner Michael Chabon. The time travel story was conceived by Matalas and connects to Picard's struggles with his own history"

It also says it was Matalas who came up with putting Q in S2 and to give him a deeper story.

corkie

When Stewart was initially pitched about Picard," Oh, so different [comparing 'Picard' and 'TNG']. I turned it down at first. And then I thought about the offer and decided I would do it, but I made two conditions," he recalled. "I didn't want to wear a uniform, and it must not be a series that is fundamentally a sentimental reunion of 'The Next Generation.' And they agreed to that.

~~ https://bleedingcool.com/tv/star-trek-patrick-stewart-made-2-conditions-before-picard-return/

I never yelled as Picard — I mean, I may have done — 'The line must be drawn here!' [pronounced 'hee-yah,' the much-memed dialogue from the film 'Star Trek: First Contact'], for which I was made fun of for decades. Actually, there was one like it in the last episode, and I thought, "At least because there aren't any more episodes, nobody will be making fun of me." We made fun of one another a lot." For more, including Stewart sharing TNG memories, lifelong friendships from the cast, theatre, and more, you can check out the interview here.

What was the line like it in the last episode?

It got very sentimental in final episode !!??

ixoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509376#Comment_120509376

TBH, it was a post I saw on Reddit that he influenced S2 based on his own upbringing (he came from an abusive household). May be some merit in it.

The DS9 arc model actually, as 53N mentioned, is probably the best way to go. There's a little of it loosely in 'Strange New Worlds', although not as heavy.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509272#Comment_120509272

It's still a really annoying word to me for some reason. People are right though, there is a lot of old sh1te that was cool as a fan but in reality, made no sense unless only maybe 6 crews in the entirety of the federation done interesting things.

So season 1 they tried to modernise/serialise a TNG movie but hadn't realised that Picard wasn't fit for that anymore and that they also had the ability to act, and that Trek fans are typically a bit more expectant of the underlying science (within reason) than the average binge sci fi fan. At no point did they think, maybe they should pivot a bit in style. Loads of little side plots that ultimately were just filler with no real point. Season 2 had promise but in fact just became an homage to The Voyage Home (a lot of it way to on the nose) and was poorly written with it saved again by a few decent actors but overall not very good at all, with yet again, a load of random filler fluff that made no sense. Season 3 made use of the fact that they had decent actors (well some at least), but they really went to far again with the filler and a few moments where someone from Disco got in and just lingered to long on each crew members face or them posing, dear lord, your way of life could be ending, pull the finger out and stop standing around. The caricature of a changeling made no sense and was at odds with the behaviour of every changeling we have ever seen. I know they have been separated and tortured but I don't think Wario became like he was because some of the Toadstools tortured a relation of Mario in the lab.

Anyway, all the ranting aside, I still enjoyed it but I really want to get some editing software and reedit the entire thing down to a few decent episodes to show them what could have been achieved. The comparison to Disco I can see but again, better actors, slightly better editors.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506916#Comment_120506916

I enjoyed this season, but the fundamental story (as its been for all 3 seasons) was terrrribble! What made this season enjoyable was entirely the little interactions between the characters. Rather than complex, i'd call it needlessly hopelessly convoluted in ways that made absolutely no sense.

This writing team are just bad at writing story. They've proven themselves better at writing people than previous seasons, thankfully, but with plot its like they stick with the first idea thrown out in each instance and never go back to revisit if those ideas are good or not. The show would've been a lot better if, instead of force feeding new mystery plot beats down our throats, they went for something simpler, and simply spent more time with the characters and let moments and scenes and episodes breath.

All in all it was a reasonably fun season in spite of itself, thanks to a great cast who had some better dialogue to work with.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510485#Comment_120510485

I'm specifically talking about S3 in terms of complexity. There were a lot of different stories going on in it and in a certain respect it brought final closure to TNG, in an entertaining manner.

Mollyb60

Maybe I've missed this somewhere along the way but are we to understand that the Vadic choppy hand communicatey person was the Borg Queen? Was that made clear at any point?

Absolutely loved this season. Great send off for the crew. Unsure if I can endure more Raffi for the Legacy show but we'll see. She's definitely better when she doesn't talk. Did she even say a single word to her beloved JL this season?

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514068#Comment_120514068

It was definitely the queen, though there was no way for anyone to really state it, as only Vadic (and her crew) knew this, and she got spaced.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514076#Comment_120514076

It was a shtty misdirection is what it was.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514365#Comment_120514365

I don't necessarily think it was misdirection just the speculation that it was something to do with the Pah Wraiths ran wild.

There are Borg hints all the way back in episode four. The end of the episode when Jack is looking in the mirror is almost an exact recreation of the opening of First Contact with Picard's nightmare.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120514444#Comment_120514444

It was.

The Borg queen suddenly looked like some skull face man. If you are doing a mystery it's a cop out just to have stuff like that.

corkie

The Borg Queen communicating with Vadic as "The Face"

She communicated with Vadic via Vadic's severed hand, with which the Borg Queen formed a simulacrum of a face in mid-air.

~~ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Borg_Queen

Wiki has the details, but don't think it was confirmed in the show.

eadrom

Unable to imagine how to conceal the Changeling / Borg relationship, although maybe the mistake was in thinking that they needed to in the first place?, they just decided to use a character which looks, sounds, and acts nothing at all like the Borg before revealing that it was actually the Borg and never even pretending to explain why it was the way it was.

Also I hear a lot (from Reddit ama, Twitter, etc) that they’d actually wanted to do X, Y, or Z in terms of extra cameos, story points, or plot, but the cost of the D bridge or the time or budget constraints held them back. But like, that’s the whole job, isn’t it? Every show works with the constraints that it has to produce the story that we’ll see on screen. I get that it’s tough decisions sometimes but it’s not a great excuse to say “it would have been better if only…” when it’s your job to know the if only’s going in, and to make a great show regardless.

That just annoyed me a bit. Must be bloody tough working on a show like this in the social media era though.

ixoy

I'm not sure I get the point above. They absolutely have budget consideration so , if they had wanted another storyline, the cost might have meant not being able to recreate the bridge of the Enterprise.

Now maybe all the decisions weren't amazing but they still had to happen. Personally removing Raffi would have freed up time and money..

From reading the AMA with the show runner it looks like they were editing scripts very late into the process.

breezy1985

Why did a changeling have to cut off her hand off with a knife to make it work ?

E

Where is this communication through bloody hand technology coming from ?

eadrom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515805#Comment_120515805

Not doing a more expensive storyline is fine, and maybe that is more accurately what was being spoken about in the Q+As or wherever. My point above was more about doing the same storyline anyway and then excusing yourself with "that would have made more sense but we didn't have the budget or time to do it properly", like the Borg/Changeling connection.

corkie

According to Wheaton, "One of the fundamental rules of being in the Travelers is that, once you've joined, you must NEVER interact directly with the people, places, planets, etc. that were part of your previous life, because it can affect your judgment and break reality." He continued, saying that while "Wesley would like nothing more than to visit his mom, and meet his brother," he knows that "not seeing them is a sacrifice he has to make in service of something so much bigger than anything else in his reality."

~ https://collider.com/star-trek-picard-wesley-jack-crusher-wil-wheaton-comments/

So that is one explanation for not seeing him in the final.

Bobtheman

So we are looking at a new series of seven as captain? Too bad she lost the cat suit but we must all grow up.

I could deal with such a series so long as we get the odd NG guest star and turn the lights back on

It's a shame season 1 and 2 were so bad. It should have been the old cast from the beginning. That's what the fans wanted.

Trying to go in a new direction with an 80 year old actor was a mistake. Added to that they didn't really manage to develop new characters of substance bar that captain from season 1 they left in the past

ItHurtsWhenIP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515936#Comment_120515936

Wasn't there a scene in sickbay, after they discovered there were changelings about, where Beverley noted they were different in that they didn't immediately turn to goo when they died, unless there was severe damage. I have a vague recollection of her poking at something solid, breaking it apart and then it went gooey.

So I'm guessing Vadic had to sacrifice her hand to let the Queen manifest for a chat ... or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120516883#Comment_120516883

I think it still could've been quite a good idea, if they had half decent writers on board. Picard, late in life, getting involved in smaller scale slower paced mysteries could've been quite fun. Like, that's what Star Trek is actually about anyway, dealing with interesting subjects and ideas on a more local level in 95% of episodes. The writers obviously decided to go the other direction, of exclusively nonsensical illogical overpacked galaxy-destruction stories.

Bobtheman

I can understand stewarts idea to want Picard to go out on his own in season 1 but it was a **** you to the rest of the cast of the next generation.

Yes he was the main man but unlike the TOS it was more of an ensemble

Perhaps they could have dialled it down a bit and thrown in the odd guest star.

Though riker did appear season 1 I think

I lost hipe in that version of Picard with the, frankly, insulting "disguises" in one of the episodes.

I, honestly, don't even have the desire to find the name for fear of seeing images of it again.

CastorTroy

https://tvline.com/lists/star-trek-picard-series-finale-ending-explained-new-series/

Seems the reason for Laris not being in it again is because Orla had returned to Ireland.

Not sure if was personal reasons or not, but surely they would've let her know that she would be needed and to not go anywhere. unless they were making it up as they went. Unlike network series, I'd say the whole season was written or at least planned before shooting began.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522722#Comment_120522722

I'd imagine if she was needed, it was only for a couple of scenes like in Season 1 so not worth the actress's time staying in the States for.

Spear

A end scene with Laris would have needed either a new set of CGI'd one. And given that they have Walter Koenig only do a voiceover, as they didn't have the budget for a filmed sequence, I suspect it's simply a case that they dropped it to save cash.

breezy1985

She was pretty much surplus to the plot once Beverly came back.

Her whole story in season 2 was practically a Crusher stand in.

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120481484#Comment_120481484

All the Times the Borg Queen Was Defeated in Star Trek TNG / Voyager / Picard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uXM0fyL9Q

Evade

Everytime she showed up and even few times she didn't?

TheValeyard

This is brilliant (not sure if posted already, fan made, but such great quality and related to S3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KXU2Ob8gYY&ab_channel=OTOY

Edit: Its part of the Roddenberry Archive, theres a few vids even voiced by John De Lancie (Q)

ManOfMystery

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530078#Comment_120530078

Just saw that an hour ago, it's amazing quality. The Spock facial visuals are impressive.

eadrom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530078#Comment_120530078

What is the Roddenberry Archive and why are they making these videos? Some incredible looking (very short) clips on their channel.

just tech demos? is it essentially fan-film stuff?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531768#Comment_120531768

It's the brainchild of Dexler and the Okuda's so I suppose it's mostly a museum of their work.

corkie

OTOY and The Roddenberry Estate Unveil the First Immersive Roddenberry Archive Experiences, Multi-year Roadmap to Preserve the History of Roddenberry’s Star Trek Work across Movies, TV and Literature ~~ Aug. 25, 2022 (8 months)

At Creation Las Vegas, the Roddenberry Estate presented the first real-time interactive and fully immersive previews of the Roddenberry Archive, a multi-decade collaboration to preserve Gene Roddenberry’s lifetime of work for future generations to experience in next generation media formats.

Above: Lawrence Selleck and Mahé Thaissa as Spock and Colt (c.2270’s / ST:TMP novel)

So maybe not Leonard Nimoy(/CGI) in the video linked earlier.

breezy1985

Apparently this also works way better in Chrome as phones and Firefox only let you scan round but you are supposed to be able to walk around the bridge.

ItHurtsWhenIP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532090#Comment_120532090

Yeah ... you can use A, S, D and W to move around on Chrome on a laptop.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533352#Comment_120533352

Had a "walk around" earlier. Very well done especially the concept stuff.

Kind of annoys me how much the 1701 and A bridge changed every movie.