Cost saving on Electrical installation

daludo

Hi all

Looking to tap into this groups industry experience. I am currently involved with a main contractor on a large pharmaceutical job. All sub contractors are meeting next week with the view to trying to reduce costs ie value engineering excercise. The installation is a typical spec from Electrical view, containment, lv and mv cabling, gen services, lighting, bms,instrumentation, data etc. My question is, does anyone have any prev experience re cost saving options when it comes to this type of installation???

Regards

kirk.

Don't know much but where would you envisage the savings to come from ?

2011

A few questions:

- Is this a green field or brown field site?

- What type of facility, biopharma, API etc..?

- Are there ATEX zoned areas? If so there are additional suggestions I can make.

Here are some suggestions for E & I value engineering that I have implemented recently in no particular order:

- On/off actuated valves, consider feedback for fail position only (rather than open and closed)

- Avoid "valve solenoid islands" such as Asco and Festo. The solutions always end up costing more.

- Wall mount VSD's in switchrooms rather than install in MCC's

- Use comms protocols such as Profinet to control VSD's rather than hard wired I/O. This is far more cost effective and allows for a far more flexible solution.

- Avoid using 110 V for E-Stops / general motor control. Use 24 VDC instead. This allows cheaper cabling to be used.

- Have a clearly defined scope for all. Do a "page turn" of the scope of work with all contractors. Revise scope documents as required to ensure that there are no gaps. Changing scope later in the project will escalate costs.

- Use 0.75 mm sq. cabling for instrumentation (@24 V DC). Larger cable sizes are simply not required. This saves on cabling, panel space and containment. Suggestions that a larger conductor is required to deal with volt drop issues for longer runs are easily disproved when properly analyzed.

- Use STO (Safe Torque Off) terminals of VSD's rather than upstream contactor for E-Stops. This is far less complex, cheaper and safer (up to SIL3)

- Spend the time carefully reviewing how packages can be integrated. You will find that vendors are most cooperative during the tendering process. They become far less cooperative once they are fully paid. Failure do do this can be very costly. Include automation engineers early on in this process for smoother integration.

- Have a good look at what handover documentation vendors are being asked for and rationalize it. There was an argument that we should take any and all documentation that was free, but this ignored the fact that someone had to review it and file it away (adding unnecessary cost).

- Negotiate "project prices" with suppliers.

- The idea that using E & I contractors to be "design partners" works is a myth that is continuously disproved. Really good E & I contractors do not magically become formidable design engineers overnight.

- Consider removing local isolators for motors when there is a local E-Stop. LOTO procedures generally insist on isolating and locking off at source anyway.

- Where possible consider veering from the prefered vendors list for instrumentation in particular with non-servicable items. Ask yourself this: What is the between Ashcroft and Wika pressure gauges? Answer: The price.

- Look at the cabling being used. Can you design out most of the (very expensive) SWA? Generally the answer is yes. This cable type is popular in Ireland on the UK only. The rest of the world does very well without it.

- For EMS and QBMS systems consider using wireless and wire free instrumentation. The capital cost is high but there are significant costs savings on installation, so overall a substantial net cost reduction. This works particularly well with mobile equipment (for obvious reasons). We have used this with great success on qualified systems recently. This can integrate with the PCS seamlessly.

- Carefully analyse power factor correction requirements. Remember motors connected to VSD's do not present as inductive loads. The VSD essentially corrects power factor to unity. Also as fluorescent type luminaires have been phased out there is now far reduced requirement for power factor correction reducing cost and footprint requirements.

- Don't skimp on FAT's. This is money well spent.

- Understand what a clean earthing system is, implement and test it properly. This will save a lot of time during commissioning.

- Carefully consider placement and quantity of remote I/O panels. This can reduce cabling and containment requirements.

- Where it make sense design out instrumentation junction boxes. These are labour intensive and introduce additional potential points of failure.

- Facilitate regular white board meetings and model reviews. Build "first in kind" and agree to it before you go too far down a particular road.

- Understand that electricians and instrumentation techs are generally very different animals. The skill sets are quite different.

- Some panel builders work with you, others don't. Select them carefully. I have seen poorly designed panels causing chaos, PM me if you want a recommendation.

- Have remote I/O panel built into each MCC to reduce cabling. This can be tested during the MCC FAT.

kirk.

- Consider removing local isolators for motors when there is a local E-Stop. LOTO procedures generally insist on isolating and locking off at source anyway.

Is it ever safe to remove local isolation ?

That's your only guarantee that you're working safely

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542353#Comment_120542353

That is not the way most large pharma plants work, isolators particularly in ATEX zoned areas can introduce another type risk and complexity (when VSD's are used). Typically isolations are carried out only by the maintenance team, locking off a local isolator would not be considered sufficient.

Generally the MCC draw / starter is withdrawn for the motor in question, fuses are removed, locks are applied (one for each person that could be impacted by the motor starting), then the E-Stop is activated better still this is locked off too. Next an attempt is made to start the motor by the maintenance tech, no power is verified and only then is the electric LOTO part of the permite signed off.

Besides there are cases when a local isolator is not possible.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542376#Comment_120542376

I would have thought it is hard to beat the simplicity, reliability and almost universally understood concept of a switch disconnector mounted locally at a motor. Use one with aux contacts to stop an upstream VSD if necessary.

Some industrial environments will have very well developed processes for LOTO, but others won’t, and even the best processes are subject to human error, particularly when the process is more complex.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120543388#Comment_120543388

The pharmaceutical industry is a place where you will find the LOTO procedures are quite advanced.

The procedures for electrical isolations do not need to be “universally understood” as they are only carried out by suitably trained and qualified

there is more to consider with the isolator than an auxiliary contact when using VSD’s (which is necessary and must be early open type). It must also be EMC shielded and have somewhere to terminate 6 earths (3 in and 3 out). This is before you consider that in many cases ATEX compliance is also a consideration.

I think it is always important to ask what it brings to the party. We have had situations where the client has requested local isolators but it hasn’t been possible. Take for example the large motor fed by three number 3 x 240 sq SWA’s in parallel. Simply no suitable isolator possible.

I think we are veering off topic. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to discuss the other cost saving measures.

daludo

Hi 2011

Thanks for that very thorough and detailed response. In answer to your questions, it is a med device facility, existing plant under going significant expansion and also there are atex zones within it.

I will table some of your suggestions to the engineering dept. There is a huge amount there to consider. Thank you again for that.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120556451#Comment_120556451

Regarding ATEX:

• Spend the money up front on the EPD (Explosion Protection Document) and HAC (Hazardous Area Classification) drawings that accompany this document. A lazy approach is often taken to these important documents when areas are unnecessarily blanked zoned. By spending the time and generating these documents properly the ATEX zones can often be dramatically reduced. This means less ATEX equipment and related instrumentation to be procured and installed. It also dramatically reduces the installation, cabling, containment, testing and documentation costs.
• When installing instruments in ATEX zoned areas where possible use Intrinsically Safe instruments. Again, this is a far more cost effective approach.
• Agree who is doing the IS calculations for the installation up front. This is normally the designer's responsibility. This will drive what IS barriers are used. The panel builder will need to know this.
• Ensure that only what absolutely has to be in an ATEX zoned area is installed in an ATEX zoned area.
• Be careful when integrating vendor packages in ATEX zoned areas. The devil is in the detail, often information is incomplete (such as IS parameters, EU certificates) also it can be very easy to invalidate the certification by not installing it in a compliant manner. We try to push the vendor into managing the install and taking responsibility for same (generally by using the selected E & I contractor)
• Exe motors must be type tested with the VSD they are fed from and must have thermistor protection. This means that the only practical solution is to ensure that both are from the same manufacturer.
• Exd and Exde motors do not have to be type tested with the VSD they are fed from, but the downside is they cost a lot more. This is something to watch with vendor packages, I have seen this go very wrong in the past. The package came with a Danfoss Exe motor and client insisted on using VSD's made by ABB throughout the site. This was expensive and slow to resolve.
• Some remote I/O panels (such as DeltaV) have off the shelf offerings that can be installed in Zone 2 areas. This can reducing cabling.
• If using "traditional" IS barriers P+F tend to be the best in terms of support, lead time and cost about the same as competitors. Do not use zener type (outdated and require a dedicated zener earth pit), use the galvanic type only (no earth connection required).