Media silence over Niall Collins story

sydthebeat

so much ignorance of legal terms, definitions, council executives and protocoals here... but hey, round and round we go....

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579273#Comment_120579273

would you agree with the general statement that a person who is planning a development project and is actively trying to purchase land for it is involved in a project that relates to dealing in or developing land?

i see we're playing "word rollercoaster" again trying to equate something to which it isnt.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579298#Comment_120579298

Your own opinion could be as easily dismissed. We might have a more interesting discussion if you are to give an example of what it is you think I am ignorant of?

I notice you've gone very quiet as to why RTE are reporting "it was agreed by the Bruff electoral area committee to place the site "on the open market"" despite that being a direct contradiction of your emphatic claim "that the meeting on January 15th 2007 did not have the power to offer the lands for sale on the open market."

Are RTE ignorant as well?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578075#Comment_120578075

My understanding is that the area meeting did not decide to put the land on the market as you claim but reccomended a decision to put the land on the market. I dont believe an area committee has the power to decide to put land on the market.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120578113#Comment_120578113

Are you sure?

Anything I have read about this does not suggest the meeting decided to place the land on the market or that it can do so but that it reccomended proceeding to a decision to place the land on the market.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579273#Comment_120579273

I understand your position.

The matter we are discussing is very specific in nature and what I think of a hypothetical scenario is irrelevant.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579413#Comment_120579413

On 15 December 2006, Limerick solicitor Patricia O'Connor wrote to Limerick County Council's Department of Housing to express an interest in a specific site on Main Street in Patrickswell.

Ms O'Connor said she was writing on behalf of "a client", whose name has been redacted in FOI documents.

She said her client "wishes to provide a centre in Patrickswell to provide a service" - the details of which have also been redacted - and asked the council to explain how the land could be purchased as at that time it was in public ownership.

Council agrees to put the site on the market

A few weeks later, on 15 January 2007, the issue was raised at Limerick County Council's Bruff electoral area committee meeting.

The meeting minutes of that meeting show councillors were told there had been "a number of enquiries to purchase a parcel of land at Main Street in Patrickswell".

And they were also told the site was three quarters of an acre and had "very limited use as an open space".

As such, it was agreed by the Bruff electoral area committee to place the site "on the open market" and that officials would update "the meeting again for further consideration".

That 15 January 2007 meeting was attended by seven councillors, including Mr Collins.

Mr Collins did not table the motion or second it.

The meeting minutes are unclear if a formal vote took place, but no objections were raised to the decision.

What happened to the property in 2007

Files released today by Limerick County Council show the Patrickswell site was advertised for sale twice in the Limerick Leader in January and February 2007.

RTE have seen the minutes.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0425/1379083-collins-background/

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579441#Comment_120579441

Ok, fair enough. I'll be more specific to the matter we are discussing.

Dr O'Connor plans to build a medical centre, and she identifies a suitable site for the centre, but it is not for sale. She finds out who owns it, then instructs her solicitor to contact the owners expressing an interest in purchasing the site in order to build a medical centre.

Do the above actions of Dr O'Connor relate to dealing in or developing land?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579555#Comment_120579555

Try again but with chat GPT?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579555#Comment_120579555

The question is did she have an interest which required NC to make a disclosure under subsection 1.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579669#Comment_120579669

If the above actions of Dr O'Connor relate to dealing in or developing land then she had an interest which required NC to make a disclosure under subsection 1.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579396#Comment_120579396

yes they are

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579697#Comment_120579697

nope

again, if you could actually understand the section that you are trying to quote you would see that:

177.—(1) Where at a meeting of a local authority or of any committee, joint committee or joint body of a local authority, a resolution, motion, question or other matter is proposed or otherwise arises either—

(a) as a result of any of its functions under this or any other enactment, or

(b) as regards the performance by the authority, committee, joint committee or joint body of any of its functions under this or any other enactment,

then, a member of the authority, committee, joint committee or joint body present at such meeting shall, where he or she has actual knowledge that he or she or a connected person has a pecuniary or other beneficial interest in, or which is material to, the matter—

(i) disclose the nature of his or her interest, or the fact of a connected person's interest at the meeting, and before discussion or consideration of the matter commences, and

(ii) withdraw from the meeting for so long as the matter is being discussed or considered,

and, accordingly, he or she shall take no part in the discussion or consideration of the matter and shall refrain from voting in relation to it.

i've bolded the bits you dont seem to understand.

@hometruths what "pecuniary or beneficial interest" did Niall Collins or Dr O Connor have in the site at the time of that Bruff Local Area meeting??

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579845#Comment_120579845

Have you actually read anything relating to how a beneficial interest is defined?

Or are you just relying on your own mis/understanding?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579950#Comment_120579950

ah jaysus, we're not going through ALL this again !!!

read the thread if you want to get informed.

very rich of you to accuse me of misunderstanding when you clearly havent a scooby.....

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120579950#Comment_120579950

What is a defined beneficial interest, as you understand it?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580131#Comment_120580131

Defined in "Beneficial Interests - Section 176":

176 (2): A person shall also be deemed to have a beneficial interest which has to be disclosed under this Part if he or she has actual knowledge that he or she or a connected person has a declarable interest (within the meaning of section 175) in, or which is material to, a resolution, motion, question or other matter which is proposed, or otherwise arises from or as regards the performance by the authority of any of its functions under this or any other enactment.

Within the meaning of Section 175:

175.—Each of the following interests is a declarable interest for the purposes of this Part:

(a) any profession, business or occupation in which the person concerned is engaged or employed, whether on his or her own behalf or otherwise, and which relates to dealing in or developing land during the appropriate period;

• Is Dr O'Connor a connected person to Niall Collins? - YES
• Did Dr O'Connor plan to build a medical centre, identify a suitable site for the centre, found out who owned it, and then instruct her solicitor to contact the owners expressing an interest in purchasing the site in order to build a medical centre? - YES
• Do these actions relate "to dealing in or developing land" - YES
• Did Niall Collins have actual knowledge of his wife's interests relating to dealing in or developing land? - YES
• Was Niall Collins wife's interest relating to dealing in or developing land material to the matter proposed? - YES
• Did Niall Collins had a beneficial interest in the matter proposed? - YES

If he wishes to argue otherwise he has to explain how the answers to any of the above questions are NO.

It is not immediately clear to me how he can manage that. No wonder he is so reluctant to answer questions on the matter.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580206#Comment_120580206

She was not engaged or employed in dealing in or developing land.

An intention to attempt to do something does not constitute being engaged in something.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580230#Comment_120580230

Apparently anyone who views/bids on a property now has a beneficial interest in dealing/developing it, I wonder can I sell my interest in the house I looked at a couple of months ago?

sydthebeat

sigh..... here we go again... its very hard to educate pork.

175.—Each of the following interests is a declarable interest for the purposes of this Part:

(a) any profession, business or occupation in which the person concerned is engaged or employed, whether on his or her own behalf or otherwise, and which relates to dealing in or developing land during the appropriate period;

was Niall Collins (or Emer O Connor if you want to stretch it that far) engaged or employed by any profession or business to deal with or develop the lands?

No? because thats what this section refers to.

i find it amazing that people see words written straight in front of them, but have absolutely no understating of what they actually say, or refer to.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580255#Comment_120580255

Great, if questioned Niall Collins can simply argue that in planning to build a medical centre, looking for for sites, and instructing solicitors to contact the owners of sites expressing an interest to purchase, his wife was not engaged in the business of property development, nor any other business which relates to dealing in or developing land.

Will look forward to seeing how that flies.

I doubt he'll get the chance to make the argument as his bosses might take the view that's not a good look.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580294#Comment_120580294

Tell me, what is her listed profession? What business or occupational licenses does she operate under?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580294#Comment_120580294

If you view a house in Saturday and bid on it, would you then own a beneficial interest in that house?

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580331#Comment_120580331

No idea, doctor I suspect.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580384#Comment_120580384

No. And neither would Dr O'Connor.

Unless of course the house was owned by the council, not on the open market, Dr O'Connor's bid was unsolicited, and the matter of whether or not to sell the house arose at a council meeting in which her husband was present and subject to the Local Government Act 2001.

In those circumstances the interest would be declarable, and he'd have to recuse himself.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580602#Comment_120580602

Correct, no, neither did Dr O’Connor, nor indeed Niall Collins, which begs the question, why do you keep insisting they did, declarable or otherwise? Do you think the other people who wrote to the council also had a defined beneficial interest in the property?

It is nonsense to suggest that if you bid on a property that you would gain financially from its sale to anyone else. At the time of the meeting there was no guarantee that Collin’s wife would be the buyer, so how could he possibly have a declarable beneficial interest in it?

sydthebeat

So once again, just like other posters, hometruths is not able to show any pecuniary or beneficial interest by Niall Collins to warrant a disclosure under the planning act, and therefore nothing to suggest illegal activity .

His only conclusion is that Collins should have, in hindsight, recused himself. Something that everyone agrees with.

What I find hilarious about so many grasping for straws here is that Collins actually did something completely unethical (and possibly illegal) in his planning application for his house, if it is shown that he lied on his application form about already owning a house. An incident I believe which has been alerted to the gardai.

They should be focusing on that.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580653#Comment_120580653

Do you think the other people who wrote to the council also had a defined beneficial interest in the property?

If they were connected persons of councillors in the meeting in which decided to sell the land then absolutely.

At the time of the meeting there was no guarantee that Collin’s wife would be the buyer, so how could he possibly have a declarable beneficial interest in it?

He had a declarable beneficial interest because that's what the Local Government Act 2001 states he had, and he is bound by that act. I've explained this above.

To repeat:

• Is Dr O'Connor a connected person to Niall Collins? - YES
• Did Dr O'Connor plan to build a medical centre, identify a suitable site for the centre, found out who owned it, and then instruct her solicitor to contact the owners expressing an interest in purchasing the site in order to build a medical centre? - YES
• Do these actions relate "to dealing in or developing land" - YES
• Did Niall Collins have actual knowledge of his wife's interests relating to dealing in or developing land? - YES
• Was Niall Collins wife's interest relating to dealing in or developing land material to the matter proposed? - YES
• Did Niall Collins had a beneficial interest in the matter proposed? - YES

I get that you think his wife's plans to build a medical centre and interest in acquiring the land from council do not relate to dealing in or developing land.

In which case your interpretation is that NC was under no obligation to disclose that his wife was one of the interested parties whose enquiries prompted the discussion and decision to sell the land that his wife ultimately bought.

And you're fine with that. Good for you.

I think it stinks though.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580653#Comment_120580653

At the time of the meeting she had not even bid on the land.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580575#Comment_120580575

Describe what part of the profession of being a doctor makes a doctor a land developer/dealer?